Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:48 pm

Godo wrote:Plus, I want to smack Mr. Toriyama for making Goten and Trunks slackers after the Buu saga. And obviously Gohan too. Plus for removing many strong characters. He maybe got lazy.

Gohan's always been a lazy slacker.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:53 pm

Godo wrote: Plus, I want to smack Mr. Toriyama for making Goten and Trunks slackers after the Buu saga. And obviously Gohan too. Plus for removing many strong characters. He maybe got lazy.

Well, that's not really the poor guy's fault. With having to continue the story as excessively as he did, of course some characters are gonna get left behind or outclassed.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:03 pm

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote:before Z, I keep forgetting which Tenkaichi Budokai it is. 23rd?

Yup.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:17 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Godo wrote: Plus, I want to smack Mr. Toriyama for making Goten and Trunks slackers after the Buu saga. And obviously Gohan too. Plus for removing many strong characters. He maybe got lazy.
Well, that's not really the poor guy's fault. With having to continue the story as excessively as he did, of course some characters are gonna get left behind or outclassed.

Actually it is. He could have chosen to not continue the story when he lost the spark...

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:06 pm

Godo wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:
Godo wrote: Plus, I want to smack Mr. Toriyama for making Goten and Trunks slackers after the Buu saga. And obviously Gohan too. Plus for removing many strong characters. He maybe got lazy.
Well, that's not really the poor guy's fault. With having to continue the story as excessively as he did, of course some characters are gonna get left behind or outclassed.
Actually it is. He could have chosen to not continue the story when he lost the spark...

He did choose to stop it, on multiple occasions, and was made to continue. He wasn't completely burnt out on the series until after Buu.

As for Goten, Trunks, and Gohan, they were always slackers. Goten and Trunks only trained as kids as a means of playing and because they wanted to be like the people they looked up to (Gohan and Vegeta respectively) but when they outgrew that phase they outgrew any real interest in fighting. And Gohan was never interested in fighting in the first place, he only fought because he had to.

And he didn't remove any strong characters. Characters that couldn't keep up simply got left behind. Considering he'd intended to end it after Freeza that was only issue cause he didn't. Really, there's no way for the Human characters to keep up with Super Saiya-jins, let alone any of the higher levels of the form.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:46 pm

Xyex wrote:
Godo wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote: Well, that's not really the poor guy's fault. With having to continue the story as excessively as he did, of course some characters are gonna get left behind or outclassed.
Actually it is. He could have chosen to not continue the story when he lost the spark...
He did choose to stop it, on multiple occasions, and was made to continue. He wasn't completely burnt out on the series until after Buu.

As for Goten, Trunks, and Gohan, they were always slackers. Goten and Trunks only trained as kids as a means of playing and because they wanted to be like the people they looked up to (Gohan and Vegeta respectively) but when they outgrew that phase they outgrew any real interest in fighting. And Gohan was never interested in fighting in the first place, he only fought because he had to.

And he didn't remove any strong characters. Characters that couldn't keep up simply got left behind. Considering he'd intended to end it after Freeza that was only issue cause he didn't. Really, there's no way for the Human characters to keep up with Super Saiya-jins, let alone any of the higher levels of the form.

First of all, it's his work, and he could have stopped it whenever he wanted. Why spoil his work? If he thought it was enough after the Freeza saga then it should be enough. It's like plastic surgery, you've gotta stop when you feel that you look great, or else you will look like a freak.
Well, I am only unhappy about Mr. Toriyama leaving characters out that had been in the story since the first books.

About the Goten and Trunks thing, I agree. But I think they had this potential that got wasted. I loved to see Gohan get stronger, and I would love even more to see that Goten and Trunks could handle defending Earth on their own.
Remember that oku said: "It's time for the younger generation to defend Earth now."
And WHAM, he throws it into the garbage...I mean, Gohan didn't like to fight, but Goku made him to because his power was needed. After all these enemies almost killing them all, he should have more sense into making Goten to train more, because his power may be needed.
Plus Gohan is a fool not to keep up with his training. If he don't want his friends to die again he'd better train. He knows well that even after 7 years of peace you can get new strong enemies...

About the humans...I think i's contradictive. They made the training Goku made and got stronger than he was when he made it. Even though they couldn't keep up with the Saiyans they could get a lot stronger. Piccolo too since he got from 1,200,000 to roughly 120,000,000 in three years.

king jro · Post by **king jro** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:56 pm

Ya Vegeta, and Tien were really the only one who trained after the Cell Saga on Earth.
Everyone else slacked of.
After GT Goten and Trunks should train more and some achieve
Super Saiyan 2, Gotenks will also be obviously much stronger too. Gohan and Vegeta should train more so they could acheive Super Saiyan 3, and if Vegeta some how gets his tail back then he would be able to go to Super Saiyan 4.
Its rather stupid

Dark Vegeta-Sama · Post by **Dark Vegeta-Sama** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:02 pm

king jro wrote:Ya Vegeta, and Tenshinhan were really the only one who trained after the Cell Saga on Earth.
Everyone else slacked of.
After GT Goten and Trunks should train more and some achieve
Super Saiyan 2, Gotenks will also be obviously much stronger too. Gohan and Vegeta should train more so they could acheive Super Saiyan 3, and if Vegeta some how gets his tail back then he would be able to go to Super Saiyan 4.
Its rather stupid

If you don't count what happens in GT and go strictly by the manga, it's highly likely that Vegeta attained Super Saiyan 3. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he's able to do it at the 28th Budokai (the very end of DBZ 10 years after Buu) but it's never discussed.

Now, going by GT, Vegeta apparently can't go SSJ3, but considering he later obtains SSJ4, it isn't that big of a deal. Even so, Goku basically leaves him to protect the earth at the end of GT, and since Vegeta would've spent the remainder of his life training, it's highly likely he attained SSJ3 and even beyond. The only thing though, is that he no longer had Goku to compete with so his training to achieve new levels of Super Saiyan would purely be for the sake of his own pride at that point.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:30 pm

king jro wrote:Ya Vegeta, and Tenshinhan were really the only one who trained after the Cell Saga on Earth.
Everyone else slacked of.
After GT Goten and Trunks should train more and some achieve
Super Saiyan 2, Gotenks will also be obviously much stronger too. Gohan and Vegeta should train more so they could acheive Super Saiyan 3, and if Vegeta some how gets his tail back then he would be able to go to Super Saiyan 4.
Its rather stupid

Gohan can't use Super Saiyan forms after he becomes 'Mystic'.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:44 pm

Godo wrote:First of all, it's his work, and he could have stopped it whenever he wanted. Why spoil his work? If he thought it was enough after the Freeza saga then it should be enough. It's like plastic surgery, you've gotta stop when you feel that you look great, or else you will look like a freak.
Well, I am only unhappy about Mr. Toriyama leaving characters out that had been in the story since the first books.

When your bosses tell you to do something, you do it. They made him change the course of the Android Saga a number of times. From introducing 16-18, to introducing Cell, to introducing Semi-Perfect Cell, and finally introducing Perfect Cell. All of this was the pushing of his editors.

As for characters being left behind, it happens in long stories with big casts when the others can't keep up.

Godo wrote:About the Goten and Trunks thing, I agree. But I think they had this potential that got wasted. I loved to see Gohan get stronger, and I would love even more to see that Goten and Trunks could handle defending Earth on their own.
Remember that oku said: "It's time for the younger generation to defend Earth now."
And WHAM, he throws it into the garbage...I mean, Gohan didn't like to fight, but Goku made him to because his power was needed. After all these enemies almost killing them all, he should have more sense into making Goten to train more, because his power may be needed.
Plus Gohan is a fool not to keep up with his training. If he don't want his friends to die again he'd better train. He knows well that even after 7 years of peace you can get new strong enemies...

Well, like it or not, it flows with the characters. That's really all there is to it. And besides, after Cell I doubt they expected anyone else to come along that was a threat. Not only because of their power but also because Trunks didn't have anything worse than them to deal with in his time. And then after Buu the chances of anyone else stronger than that is utterly absurd becaue Buu's already well beyond anything the universe was really designed to handle.

Godo wrote:About the humans...I think i's contradictive. They made the training Goku made and got stronger than he was when he made it. Even though they couldn't keep up with the Saiyans they could get a lot stronger. Piccolo too since he got from 1,200,000 to roughly 120,000,000 in three years.

But they were also stronger when they took that training than Goku was. And they still didn't have the power to match the Saiya-jins, like you said. There's just no feasible way to boost the Human's power to keep up. Use some sort of power-up like Guru or the Elder Kaioshin? Fine, but why not power-up someone who's already powerful instead, this giving a better chance of victory? You see the issue?

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:32 pm

Just for reference sake, here is a quick rundown of which tournament is which:

Budokai's 1-20: Roshi was the Champion for at least two, maybe more of these, and Devilman/Akuman was claimed to be a two time tournament winner as well. It is also likely that Son Gohan may have been a champion at one in his younger days.

20th Budokai: (Unseen in series, just mentioned) Champion: King Chappa

21st Budokai (First seen in series) Final round: Son Goku vs. Jackie Chun (Master Roshi) Champion: Jackie Chun

22nd Budokai (Second seen in series) Final round: Son Goku vs. Tenshinhan Champion: Tenshinhan

23rd Budokai: (Third seen in series) Final round: Son Goku vs. Ma Junior (Piccolo) Champion: Son Goku

24th Budokai: (Not seen, only mentioned) Champion: Mr. Satan

25th Budokai: (Seen in early Buu Saga) (Everyone leaves to fight Buu) Final round: Android 18 vs. Mr. Satan Champion: Mr. Satan

26th Budokai: (Not seen, mentioned) Final round: Mr. Buu vs. Mr. Satan Champion: Mr. Satan

27th Budokai: (Not seen, mentioned) Final round: Mr. Buu vs. Mr. Satan Champion: Mr. Satan

28th Budokai: (Seen at end of series, bout of worth and mention: Son Goku vs. Uub) Unknown Champion, unless you include GT, then it was probably Mr. Satan somehow. Vegeta probably left after the possibilty of fighting Goku was out of the question.

king jro · Post by **king jro** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:30 pm

Rocketman wrote:

Gohan can't use Super Saiyan forms after he becomes 'Mystic'.[/quote]

Actually if you have ever watch GT it apperently wore of or something.
As far as we know he could of only had it for 24 hours or so.
If he trained hard enough with Vegeta he could of achieved Super Saiyan 3 and be about as strong as he was in his 'Mystic' form.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:50 pm

king jro wrote:If he trained hard enough with Vegeta

Gohan.

Training hard.

With Vegeta.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA *gasp* AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH... *passes out*

Dark Vegeta-Sama · Post by **Dark Vegeta-Sama** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:07 pm

Rocketman wrote:
king jro wrote:If he trained hard enough with Vegeta

Gohan.

Training hard.

With Vegeta.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA *gasp* AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH... *passes out*

While the mere notion of that happening is ridiculous, the fact is that if Gohan did train with Vegeta or at least at the level of intensity as Vegeta, he'd be one hell of a strong warrior.

Gohan has the potential to be stronger than everyone (and for a portion of the series, he is) but because of his slack attitude, Vegeta is much stronger than him the vast majority of the time due to his constant training.

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:26 am

I don't remember it EVER being Established that he Can't go Super Saiya-jin after his Mystic Power-up, he just Doesn't.
Either he had become so Powerful, that he didn't need to, and was absorbed before he could, or his Mystic form was a step above SSJ2 somehow.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:46 am

DemonRin wrote:I don't remember it EVER being Established that he Can't go Super Saiya-jin after his Mystic Power-up, he just Doesn't.
Either he had become so Powerful, that he didn't need to, and was absorbed before he could, or his Mystic form was a step above SSJ2 somehow.

The Old Kaioshin said: "Just do now as you do when you go Super Saiyan", and so did Gohan. The state (permanent, mind you) he got into was the "Mystic" state.
Even after Buu is defeated and our fellows enter the 28'th Budokai, you see Gohan with all his "Mystic" attributes.
Permanent permanent permanent.

If he would have tried to go SSJ after the "Mystic" transformation nothing would hapen, since the SSJ state was switched into the "Mystic" transformation. It's like going SSJ when you are SSJ. Nothing will happen.

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:50 am

I just opened the Manga to that Chapter, and I see NOTHING that explicitly uses the Word "Permanent" or the Phrase "Never" to refer to him going Super Saiya-jin.
He just tells Gohan do the thing he does when he goes SSJ
Gohand does, Turns Mystic.
and then, Goku Comments "I almost don't believe it... I mean, he don't really look like A Super Saiya-jin..." and Then Old Kaioushin tells him he didn't transform into the "Super" that Goku is Talking about.
I don't see him ever say Gohan CAN'T go SSJ, or SSJ2 or something, I mean, when the Saiya-jin transform, then can change to different transformations.

Point me in the direction of the panel where he says it's permanent, then I'll believe you

Also, I just checked the DaizEX Rumor guide, because I remembered seeing Something about this there, and it says in THERE that there was a rumor going around that if Gohan never goes SSJ after he gets the powerup because it would destroy the planet (It's listed as False of Course) but Mike says during it that it was started for fans to explain why he never goes SSJ because it's never explained in the series. Mike then goes on to say it was probably because the power-up made him so powerful that he didn't need to, as it would expend too much energy.
Mike has read the Daizenshuus, and knows a LOT more DBZ than I do, so there's a REALLY good Chance if it were permanent, he'd know it

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:14 am

DemonRin wrote:I don't remember it EVER being Established that he Can't go Super Saiya-jin after his Mystic Power-up, he just Doesn't.
Either he had become so Powerful, that he didn't need to, and was absorbed before he could, or his Mystic form was a step above SSJ2 somehow.

If he could go SSJ, he would have while Super Gotenks Buu has kicking his ass.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:51 am

DemonRin wrote: Point me in the direction of the panel where he says it's permanent, then I'll believe you

This is Gohan untransformed, before the "Mystic" powerup:

This is Gohan as "Mystic", and he looks the same in the manga when he is happy:

This is Gohan after the Buu saga, around the 28'th Budokai:

To further prove my point, I'll add this:

http://images.myfavoritegames.com/galle ... story4.jpg

I think the answer is quite obvious. I mean, if you can see correctly. He still has his "Mystic" powerup after all these years, leaving the conclusion that it is permanent.

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:15 pm

I don't see whatever it is you want me to see.
He looks PRETTY MUCH the same to me in all of the pictures.
The Image I have in the manga, makes it look like "Mystic" has the SSJ Shaped Eyes, like how Goku and Gohan don't have fully closed and angled eyes when they're normal, but when they go SSJ, their eyes become angular and close up, and that's Really the ONLY change. if I'm missing something tell me. but yeah, his Eyes change into the "SSJ" eyes when he's Mystic, but the Picture of Older Gohan on that Daizenshuu page has him with his NORMAL eyes again, so he's Obviously NOT Mystic in that pic (look close, they're Opened on the sides, it's hard to see tho, cuz of his glasses)
And even if he is Still Mystic after all these years, it doesn't mean he CAN'T go SSJ, it just means that he DOESN'T.