Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

Goku lets his guard down all the time even though his training with Mr. Popo (and then, Whis) should've ridden him of that weakness.
His techniques are also imprecise as Kame-sennin points out while teaching him the Mafuuba.

Perhaps Goku's really regressed a lot more than we think and forgot Mastered Super Saiyan was a thing?

[Ki Breaker]

Goku lets his guard down all the time even though his training with Mr. Popo (and then, Whis) should've ridden him of that weakness.
His techniques are also imprecise as Kame-sennin points out while teaching him the Mafuuba.

Perhaps Goku's really regressed a lot more than we think and forgot Mastered Super Saiyan was a thing?

The you let his guard down is getting old..
Real old..
Its just like "he has so much potential"..
Everytime someone needs to leap levels for a specific scene, they have extreme potential, as soon as the scene is over, they will still be below goku, without any specific reason..
Similarly, there is no way goku is letting his guard down left and right all the time even when he is in a fight, it's just an excuse for a weaker opponent to get a hold of him..
Mastered SS isn't a thing anymore for gohan or goku because reasons..

[Bullza]

Again, it'd be far-fetched for Jiren to get an intense fight out of it regardless of wherever you place base Goku -- he'd be holding back hundreds and hundreds of times either way.

Yeah, I suppose that's true. In any case I meant it more that the Base Goku that will fight Jiren will be a much more serious and powered up version of Base Goku than what we've seen so far like how the Base Goku that fought Hit was not the same as the one who was messing around with Botamo and Frost.

As for Frieza, none of those examples are battle feats on Goku's end.

No but the two are meant to be on par with each other in strength. Frieza should be the equivalent of Goku but without letting his guard down, causing him unnecessary problems.

18 was in a much worse position than any bear hold, having been pinned down by Tupper's entire body weight.

Goku was in a position where lifting Tupper was impossible, he had no freedom of movement whilst his arms were pinned down so he couldn't have lifted him. Tupper was directly on top of Android 18 though so was able to use her arm to lift him up. If the roles were reversed it'd probably have ended the same way.

On the flip side a couple episodes ago Shosa ended up giving Android 18 some trouble when she made the same mistake of letting her guard down and would have been knocked off if not for Krillin. Meanwhile Base Goku was holding his own against the Trio De Dangers, all of whom are more than likely stronger than Shosa.

[Animelover5487]

From what I can tell from this episode:

- #18 is not stronger than Base Goku. Goku couldn't get out of Tupper's barehug because he was caught off guard which we know in Super is very effective. I doubt Toei's intention in that scene was to show 18 is stronger than Goku

- All of the five Pride Troppers in this episode are weaker than #18

- Base Caulifia is weaker than Base Goku, #17 and #18

- Controlled Berserk Kale (Skinny)'s combined blast with SSJ Caulifia wasn't enough to overpower the Pride Troppers combined blast

- Controlled Berserk Kale (Buff) combined blast with SSJ2 Caulifia is enough to overpower the blast, though Kale doesn't appear to be much over Super Saiyan 2 tier in this episode despite her showing in the last episode presenting her as being at least Blue tier

[Marlowe89]

Goku was in a position where lifting Tupper was impossible, he had no freedom of movement whilst his arms were pinned down so he couldn't have lifted him. Tupper was directly on top of Android 18 though so was able to use her arm to lift him up.

I'm not so much talking about Goku's lack of arm mobility though. I'm more specifically referring to his total inability to move any part of his body at all (including his legs which weren't pinned), which he should have been able to do if 18 could lift Tupper's entire body weight that easily. We know that he couldn't do that in base though -- Goku commented on how unbearably heavy Tupper was, his legs were shaking and gave out to the point that he eventually fell to his knees with Tupper pressing his weight on him.

The intention of the scene is clear in conveying that Tupper was too heavy for Goku's own strength to handle, yet not heavy at all for 18's.

[LowRyder2005]

#18 is not stronger than Base Goku. Goku couldn't get out of Tupper's barehug because he was caught off guard which we know in Super is very effective. I doubt Toei's intention in that scene was to show 18 is stronger than Goku

You can clearly see Goku's legs shaking all the time - and, well, the ground breaking - when Tupper's on his shoulders, which indicates the foe's weight was almost unbearable for Goku to handle (same weight being what also made Goku completely still, unable to run or to evade other attacks). #18's physical strength was in turn enough to lift Tupper as if it was as light as a feather.

The point sent across was clearly supposed to be that her strength had far exceeded Goku's if she could lift the guy without issue while Goku couldn't. Unless we were to theorize they actually wanted to say Goku's circulation was cut off, or something similarly specifical (which I doubt for obvious reasons, I'd say), or equally counter-intuitive conditions like Tupper somehow weighting less while he was on top of #18.

Obviously, whether it fits or not according to what was previously established is a whole 'nother story, but I'd very safely say that writer's intent in the aforementioned scene is crystal.

EDIT: Marlowe89's preceded me by a hair's breadth.

EDIT #2: In fact, now that I think about it, from a strictly physical point of view and assuming Tupper's weight remained constant by that point, #18's feat would even be more impressive considering that Tupper's weight was distributed on Goku's entire body, while #18 friggin' lifted him with a single arm. It's the equivalent of lifting a fridge over your head with one arm vs. being unable to move with a fridge on your shoulders.

[Marlowe89]

EDIT #2: In fact, now that I think about it, from a strictly physical point of view and assuming Tupper's weight remained constant by that point, #18's feat would even be more impressive considering that Tupper's weight was distributed on Goku's entire body, while #18 friggin' lifted him with a single arm. It's the equivalent of lifting a fridge over your head with one arm vs. being unable to move with a fridge on your shoulders.

That's also a good point and more or less the gist of what I was trying to get across myself.

I'd also like to stress how particularly noteworthy it was that Goku's legs completely gave out like that, with Tupper's weight eventually forcefully causing him to fall to the ground. It establishes that he couldn't have been holding back.

[Bullza]

It would make no sense for Android 18 to be stronger than Base Goku, her being that strong would make her even stronger than Final Form Frieza as well who was enormously above Super Saiyan Gohan. Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo who was much stronger than Android 18. She was shown to be training but it couldn't have been too much as this is only one year on from that.

She was shown to have the upper hand against Cocette but then also had trouble with and should have lost to a fodder like Shosa.

Tupper can also adjust his weight so maybe he didn't use as much on Android 18 as he did on Goku who he held on to for longer.

[Will]

It would make no sense for Android 18 to be stronger than Base Goku, her being that strong would make her even stronger than Final Form Frieza as well who was enormously above Super Saiyan Gohan. Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo who was much stronger than Android 18. She was shown to be training but it couldn't have been too much as this is only one year on from that.

She was shown to have the upper hand against Cocette but then also had trouble with and should have lost to a fodder like Shosa.

Tupper can also adjust his weight so maybe he didn't use as much on Android 18 as he did on Goku who he held on to for longer.

Shosa fought against Kettol, the pride trooper that was stronger than base Cauli.


And Shosa was also one of the fighter that was unscathed by the team assault from Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, Tien Shinhan and Master Roshi.

Shosa managed to block some hit from 18, he isn't weak.

[God Movement]

SSB Goku is evenly matched with True Golden Frieza. If the original SS multipliers (50/100/400x) still apply, Base Goku would at least probably be 500x weaker than his SSB form, which is a HUGE gap. Either:

1. Goku doesn't need to actually be God Tier to keep up with Frieza's speed (maybe Frieza didn't really go all out against those scrubs?) and to survive Sidra's Hakai Ball (Even Roshi survived Tagoma's attacks. so I doubt survival feats are a good point).

2. Goku can access power close to his Super Saiyan Blue's power without actually transforming. Essentially, the gap between Base and SSB seems to be less than 2x.

Most of the guys here go with the latter interpretation, you may know this as the "two-base theory".

Yeah, but I also know it as the "made-up theory" because there's absolutely no proof of it besides disbelief that supporting characters in Super have growth far, far beyond what you would expect of them in Z.

We know already that Super's growth rate is ridiculous. It's time to accept that and not attempt to head-canon every single thing away. BASE GOKU survived Sidra's Hakai. SSJ3 Goku back in the BoG Arc was pushed by a heavily limited Beerus and was left inches away from death. There's no way around this. It was only 10 or so episodes ago, there's no retcon. Base Goku is God Tier, and from what it looks like 18 probably is now too, although on the lower end, but I'll need to see a bit more before I completely make my mind up.

The latter half of the show goes directly against this very notion. I'm surprised nobody mentioned it yet, at this point: if base Goku was "God tier" he wouldn't have needed to go Super Saiyan against a Gohan who's overall labeled as weaker than "Ultimate Gohan" from the Buu arc (through official synopses, in-universe statements etc.). His base form would've sufficed at extremely contained levels. It takes something akin as simple math and some very basic assumptions (like where Super Buu, Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan all stood compared to each other in the Buu saga).

I also question, as usual, what I feel like is a strange tendency to ignore basic narrative world-building. Super's also did not make such a big deal of whatever level Krillin/ #18 had reached (Krillin is literally stated to have trained with some weight machines he presumably bought somewhere), while Goku and Vegeta were heavily implied to have basically hit their limit with conventional training methods (7 years of training later in the Majin Buu saga and they still are about as strong as they were in the Cell Games). I mean, I don't quite understand how would anyone not feel like it's extremely counter-intuitive, especially after you realize it's gratuitous and at least as confusing as out-of-universe theories about the writing team changing their portrayal of this or that character.

Apart from the fact of course that Tagoma was labeled by Gohan to be stronger than him "when he was at his best" i.e. Ultimate Gohan?



SSJ Gohan in the RoF Arc surpassed Ultimate Gohan if we go by that statement and your argument ends right there.

The fuss about Gohan wasn't him reaching his original power level, it was him regaining his strongest form. DBZ levels are shit to Super even early on into the series apparently. Which perfectly explains why SSJ3 Gotenks looked like shit to God Tier Base Saiyans.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

We've already gone over that one. According to the translation crew around these parts, the contextual meaning is that Gohan meant his best at that point, right then and there.

Also, thematically, it makes sense that he means this because he flat-out stated he couldn't access his full power, and had to resort to SS instead, thanks to a lack of training.

This also gels with him having to overcome his mental barriers with Piccolo's help to re-access Ultimate and increase his potential past its original limitations.


[Edit] I may not personally believe Goku, Vegeta, etc. to be as weak as some folks are claiming them to be currently, but even I recognize that Gohan was very clearly being portrayed as inferior to his old self, even back in that arc.

[The gr]

I think #18 is below base goku level considering he was struggling with Shosa the one who fought evenly Kettol,the pride trooper whos stronger than base cauli and lastly Caulifla's ss2 is weaker than goku so that mean her base form is weak because goku was playing around with her in the ss2 figth

I think it goes like this,base goku>#18>base caulilfa

[God Movement]

We've already gone over that one. According to the translation crew around these parts, the contextual meaning is that Gohan meant his best at that point, right then and there.

Also, thematically, it makes sense that he means this because he flat-out stated he couldn't access his full power, and had to resort to SS instead, thanks to a lack of training.

This also gels with him having to overcome his mental barriers with Piccolo's help to re-access Ultimate and increase his potential past its original limitations.


[Edit] I may not personally believe Goku, Vegeta, etc. to be as weak as some folks are claiming them to be currently, but even I recognize that Gohan was very clearly being portrayed as inferior to his old self, even back in that arc.

I wasn't aware of that.

So then, how do you explain the past tense? "When I was at my best", he's obviously referring to a past occasion. Surely if he's referring to this current time he would say "when I'm at my best".

[LowRyder2005]

The argument would still hold partly, as I'd be going off equally official sources, but the statement in question has long been clarified in being a completely moot point - any Japanese-savvy translator confirmed the terminology used is a figure to say Gohan's strength when fully rested, which means (in turn) that Tagoma is around base Gohan, since the *tired* Super Saiyan Gohan is plenty enough to stomp him.

Regarding Ultimate Gohan, the rationale again doesn't hold up. Goku is disappointed with Gohan's power: why would he be disappointed if he had seen a Gohan performing at a level beyond (stronger than Ultimate Gohan) or astronomically far beyond - Super Saiyan God - what he was accustomed to? He also doesn't remember the Ultimate form in particular as Gohan's maximum output of power, as seen in the following episode, so it appears abundantly clear that it's not the lack of the form that perplexes him, but Gohan's sheer power at that point in time.

The relative V Jump's extract with the synopsis for ep. 95 also confirms this by stating that Gohan was training with Piccolo in order to regain "his lost strength". Piccolo does just the same in the episode when he remarks that Gohan "can't evoke (his) original power" when Gohan is Super Saiyan 2; again, nothing of this would make pretty much any logical sense if Gohan had already strength in excess.

So then, how do you explain the past tense? "When I was at my best", he's obviously referring to a past occasion. Surely if he's referring to this current time he would say "when I'm at my best".

Again, the focus is on the term "at my best". It's apparently not something you would use to reference "back when I was strong", but more to express something like "how you'd feel on a particular day". The use of the past form should simply be in reference to when Gohan wasn't nearly as tired, the beginning of the fight.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/886411622582964224

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

We've already gone over that one. According to the translation crew around these parts, the contextual meaning is that Gohan meant his best at that point, right then and there.

Also, thematically, it makes sense that he means this because he flat-out stated he couldn't access his full power, and had to resort to SS instead, thanks to a lack of training.

This also gels with him having to overcome his mental barriers with Piccolo's help to re-access Ultimate and increase his potential past its original limitations.


[Edit] I may not personally believe Goku, Vegeta, etc. to be as weak as some folks are claiming them to be currently, but even I recognize that Gohan was very clearly being portrayed as inferior to his old self, even back in that arc.

I wasn't aware of that.

So then, how do you explain the past tense? "When I was at my best", he's obviously referring to a past occasion. Surely if he's referring to this current time he would say "when I'm at my best".

That's the Crunchyroll subs. Sometimes, they don't get it down exactly right. However, Gohan DID just get blasted an episode prior, and he was at his best beforehand. It could simply be referring to him before he got taken off-guard by Tagoma, since he was doing pretty well then. As well, in that same episode, it flat-out tells us he can't access his full potential, which is obviously referring to Ultimate. Thus, Ultimate > SS, which is later proven when Piccolo retrains Gohan.

[God Movement]

Ok that's good enough for me. I concede on that particular point.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Since you want to argue that Base Goku is no longer God Tier, then I want you to explain in the simplest possible way how he was not immediately erased by Sidra's Hakai energy. Take your time. It was only 10 or so episodes ago. Then, explain how he was able to keep up with Golden Freeza's speed perfectly fine in his Base Form.

All I can see is arguments from disbelief everywhere, is that how things are done in this thread or what?

I'm sorry, but I have no interest in arguing with you about Goku's Base power level. I'm not going to "Take [my] time," and try to "explain [it] in the simplest possible way."

If you want to review the old material from 830+ pages ago, then go for it, but I don't have the interest to engage in this.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to? I think Option B makes the most sense given episode 100 and episode 101. SS1 Caulifla and SSBerserker Controlled Kale were about equal in the beam struggle. SSBerserker Kale was a tad stronger than SS2 Caulifla in the second part of the beam struggle.

[God Movement]

Since you want to argue that Base Goku is no longer God Tier, then I want you to explain in the simplest possible way how he was not immediately erased by Sidra's Hakai energy. Take your time. It was only 10 or so episodes ago. Then, explain how he was able to keep up with Golden Freeza's speed perfectly fine in his Base Form.

All I can see is arguments from disbelief everywhere, is that how things are done in this thread or what?

I'm sorry, but I have no interest in arguing with you about Goku's Base power level. I'm not going to "Take [my] time," and try to "explain [it] in the simplest possible way."

If you want to review the old material from 830+ pages ago, then go for it, but I don't have the interest to engage in this.

What? I have my beliefs on it and you clearly have yours. I don't need you to EXPLAIN it to me, I was asking you to defend your stance in the face of said proof.

[dragonball0900]

I want to ask something.

Who was stronger during the exhibition match against Universe 9? Good Buu or SSJ Gohan? Back when they were fighting the Trio De Dangers.