Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RedHeat]

I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to? I think Option B makes the most sense given episode 100 and episode 101. SS1 Caulifla and SSBerserker Controlled Kale were about equal in the beam struggle. SSBerserker Kale was a tad stronger than SS2 Caulifla in the second part of the beam struggle.

I think D makes the most sense. That way, you can have Kale dominate SSJ2 Goku like she did but can't touch SSJB.

But you also have to remember that the Beserker form is now going to be weaker than her being mindless, now that it's controlled. She ain't at 100% all the time now.

[TheMikado]

I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to? I think Option B makes the most sense given episode 100 and episode 101. SS1 Caulifla and SSBerserker Controlled Kale were about equal in the beam struggle. SSBerserker Kale was a tad stronger than SS2 Caulifla in the second part of the beam struggle.

I think D makes the most sense. That way, you can have Kale dominate SSJ2 Goku like she did but can't touch SSJB.

But you also have to remember that the Beserker form is now going to be weaker than her being mindless, now that it's controlled. She ain't at 100% all the time now.

A would be most consistent to what we've actually seen from the show which is why I assume its option A.

[Doctor.]

I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to? I think Option B makes the most sense given episode 100 and episode 101. SS1 Caulifla and SSBerserker Controlled Kale were about equal in the beam struggle. SSBerserker Kale was a tad stronger than SS2 Caulifla in the second part of the beam struggle.]

Rosé should be equal to Blue, they're literally the same form.

[TheMikado]

I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to? I think Option B makes the most sense given episode 100 and episode 101. SS1 Caulifla and SSBerserker Controlled Kale were about equal in the beam struggle. SSBerserker Kale was a tad stronger than SS2 Caulifla in the second part of the beam struggle.]

Rosé should be equal to Blue, they're literally the same form.

This is true in the manga, we don't know that in the anime. They never explained it.

[Doctor.]

I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to? I think Option B makes the most sense given episode 100 and episode 101. SS1 Caulifla and SSBerserker Controlled Kale were about equal in the beam struggle. SSBerserker Kale was a tad stronger than SS2 Caulifla in the second part of the beam struggle.]

Rosé should be equal to Blue, they're literally the same form.

This is true in the manga, we don't know that in the anime. They never explained it.

In the anime they make it seem like it's Black's equivalent of SSJ, which would explain why he's at SSB level despite being so strong in base.

[SansrivaaL]

I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to? I think Option B makes the most sense given episode 100 and episode 101. SS1 Caulifla and SSBerserker Controlled Kale were about equal in the beam struggle. SSBerserker Kale was a tad stronger than SS2 Caulifla in the second part of the beam struggle.]

Rosé should be equal to Blue, they're literally the same form.

This is true in the manga, we don't know that in the anime. They never explained it.

Initially I took SSJRose as his equal to SSJ, the hair color and eyes has different colors which is the same with SSJ, and we saw base Black smirk and surprise the fuck out of Vegeta in SSJB as well so I thought Black must be insanely powerful even in his SSJ version, that is until the manga came in and I saw Toriyama do an actual illustration of Black in his SSJ gold form. Tho they are different versions but still, confuses the hell out of me to this day.

[TAF108]

Goku lets his guard down all the time even though his training with Mr. Popo (and then, Whis) should've ridden him of that weakness.
His techniques are also imprecise as Kame-sennin points out while teaching him the Mafuuba.

Perhaps Goku's really regressed a lot more than we think and forgot Mastered Super Saiyan was a thing?

Goku berated the Ginyu Force for letting their guard down. So it's always struck me as odd that Goku would fall prey to that exact same weakness. They just took Goku's overconfidence from the Boo arc and went overboard with it.

I feel like Super in general has made MSSJ seem unimportant. The only time it seemed to matter was when Vegeta fought Cabba (Unless you just say Vegeta was holding back, in which case it doesn't matter.) Caulfila was able to ascend to SSJ2 twice without first mastering SSJ, and Cabba & Kal have never even considered it. It really makes the race of ascension in Cell Arc lose it's flare.

[TAF108]

I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to? I think Option B makes the most sense given episode 100 and episode 101. SS1 Caulifla and SSBerserker Controlled Kale were about equal in the beam struggle. SSBerserker Kale was a tad stronger than SS2 Caulifla in the second part of the beam struggle.

I think that's lowballing Super Saiyajin Ikari. Trunks was around equal to Goku & Vegeta provided they were in the same form, and then he was able to greatly overwhelm Black when he entered Super Saiyajin Rage, something SSJB Goku & Vegeta certainly couldn't do before improving and returning to fight. I'd say that is should definitely have a higher multiplier than Blue, unless I'm remembering something wrong.

If we go by the anime, Rose shouldn't be any higher than SSJ. Rose could only contend with Blue because Black's base form was incredibly strong. I'd recommend, in the subject of Youtube, watching Sharic TH's explanation of it, where he provides all the necessary evidence. But I think it's pretty clear.

So it'd be something more like SSJ = SSJR < SSJ2 < SSJ3 (I'm not sure if I'd count Ultimate in this list, so I won't.) < SSJB < SSJI. I'd say Berserker isn't a match for Blue or KKBlue, considering Goku wants both Caulfila and Kale to improve so the final fight will be more intense. That's gotta mean he can take them with whatever his full strength is.

[Bullza]

Which one do you guys subscribe to? I think Option B makes the most sense given episode 100 and episode 101.

I'd probably say B as well for now. Also going by what happened on its first appearance. If the Super Saiyan Blue Goku who fought Kale was only a little stronger than his Super Saiyan 2 then Kale could be as low as his Super Saiyan 3 level.

Who was stronger during the exhibition match against Universe 9? Good Buu or SSJ Gohan? Back when they were fighting the Trio De Dangers.

That's sorta tricky to say because Super Saiyan Gohan was poisoned so didn't seem like he should be as strong as he should be.

When healthy I'd say Super Saiyan Gohan was definitely stronger. I'd perhaps argue that Base Gohan could be stronger than Buu as well.

[ekrolo2]

Rosé should be equal to Blue, they're literally the same form.

This is true in the manga, we don't know that in the anime. They never explained it.

In the anime they make it seem like it's Black's equivalent of SSJ, which would explain why he's at SSB level despite being so strong in base.

Could a case be made for Black's weird looking SS1 being just Rose that hasn't properly been able to change from God ki?

[Marlowe89]

Black's base form was incredibly strong in both versions, I don't know why people are acting like there's some major difference between the anime and manga there.

I'd probably say B as well for now. Also going by what happened on its first appearance. If the Super Saiyan Blue Goku who fought Kale was only a little stronger than his Super Saiyan 2 then Kale could be as low as his Super Saiyan 3 level.

Agreed on that. It's kind of weird that they had Kale causing that much trouble for Goku in Super Saiyan Blue, but if we go by what the dialogue hinted at then she's either on par with Goku's Super Saiyan 3 or moderately above it.

This is true in the manga, we don't know that in the anime. They never explained it.

Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Rosé and Super Saiyan Blue are all intrinsically the same form in the manga despite any power differentials those individual variants might have. Zamasu said as much himself.

No reason to think the anime's any different in that regard.

[ekrolo2]

Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Rosé and Super Saiyan Blue are all intrinsically the same form in the manga despite any power differentials those forms might have. Zamasu said as much himself.

No reason to think the anime's any different in that regard.

He said that? When did that happen and what did he exactly say?

[Marlowe89]

He said that? When did that happen and what did he exactly say?

It's when Black powers up as a Super Saiyan and his hair changes color:

"So when a deity surpasses the Super Saiyan God, instead of blue, his hair turns light crimson!" -- Zamasu, Chapter 20

[TheMikado]

He said that? When did that happen and what did he exactly say?

It's when Black powers up as a Super Saiyan and his hair changes color:

"So when a deity surpasses the Super Saiyan God, instead of blue, his hair turns light crimson!" -- Zamasu, Chapter 20

Yeah they surpassed it with SSB, which turns pink for him because he's a God. Says nothing about plain old SSJ which the anime never addresses any of this.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Since you want to argue that Base Goku is no longer God Tier, then I want you to explain in the simplest possible way how he was not immediately erased by Sidra's Hakai energy. Take your time. It was only 10 or so episodes ago. Then, explain how he was able to keep up with Golden Freeza's speed perfectly fine in his Base Form.

All I can see is arguments from disbelief everywhere, is that how things are done in this thread or what?

I'm sorry, but I have no interest in arguing with you about Goku's Base power level. I'm not going to "Take [my] time," and try to "explain [it] in the simplest possible way."

If you want to review the old material from 830+ pages ago, then go for it, but I don't have the interest to engage in this.

What? I have my beliefs on it and you clearly have yours. I don't need you to EXPLAIN it to me, I was asking you to defend your stance in the face of said proof.

Whether you realize it or not, your original message did not come across as though you were asking me to defend my stance. Regardless, I don't really want to do so. I'm sorry, but I am just not up for it, haha.

He said that? When did that happen and what did he exactly say?

It's when Black powers up as a Super Saiyan and his hair changes color:

"So when a deity surpasses the Super Saiyan God, instead of blue, his hair turns light crimson!" -- Zamasu, Chapter 20

Yeah they surpassed it with SSB, which turns pink for him because he's a God. Says nothing about plain old SSJ which the anime never addresses any of this.

I kinda agree with TheMikado. I don't think Super Saiyan 1 has a lot of a connection to the other two. Yes, SSBlue and SSRose are the godly versions of SS1, but I think it is still a little different.

I want to ask something.

Who was stronger during the exhibition match against Universe 9? Good Buu or SSJ Gohan? Back when they were fighting the Trio De Dangers.

I saw it as this: Base Goku = Base Gohan < Basil = Lavender = Bergamo < SS1 Goku = SS1 Gohan << Good Buu << SSB Goku < SSB KK Goku

[Marlowe89]

Yeah they surpassed it with SSB, which turns pink for him because he's a God. Says nothing about plain old SSJ which the anime never addresses any of this.

We know it's Super Saiyan though because Black powered up as a Super Saiyan, and characters like Goku and Zamasu just mentioned that his hair color changed as opposed to calling it some brand new transformation. We also know Blue is a variant of Super Saiyan in the anime because that's what Goku called it, i.e. the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.

Both versions corroborate the same basic idea. You can certainly call it a different form if you want, but it's clear that it thematically has the biggest connection to Super Saiyan compared to any other form.

I kinda agree with TheMikado. I don't think Super Saiyan 1 has a lot of a connection to the other two. Yes, SSBlue and SSRose are the godly versions of SS1, but I think it is still a little different.

It's absolutely different in many regards, but as you put it yourself, it's essentially the "godly version" of Super Saiyan. That's my only real point.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, because Black possesses a god's soul, him turning SS in the anime just turns his hair pink, no "surpasses SSG" nonsense. It certainly simplifies the power-scaling to an extent, as it means we have no pesky regular SS form to muddy the waters about who stands where in comparison to each other like the manga did during those chapters with SS2 Vegeta and Trunks and whatnot.

It also works out quite well with my own personal power-scaling, because I always placed base Vegeta and Goku at some level of Majin Buu, then SSB a few dozen times stronger than SS3's 400 times multiplier of such a level.

With base Goku Black being stronger than SS3's 400x multiplier, him using regular Super Saiyan's 50x multiplier would easily put him on the same level as SSB.

[TheMikado]

The way I see it, because Black possesses a god's soul, him turning SS in the anime just turns his hair pink, no "surpasses SSG" nonsense. It certainly simplifies the power-scaling to an extent, as it means we have no pesky regular SS form to muddy the waters about who stands where in comparison to each other like the manga did during those chapters with SS2 Vegeta and Trunks and whatnot.

It also works out quite well with my own personal power-scaling, because I always placed base Vegeta and Goku at some level of Majin Buu, then SSB a few dozen times stronger than SS3's 400 times multiplier of such a level.

With base Goku Black being stronger than SS3's 400x multiplier, him using regular Super Saiyan's 50x multiplier would easily put him on the same level as SSB.

Toriyama explicitly said Black also has a yellow SSJ form, saying he doesn't runs directly contrary to what Toriyama explicitly wrote.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, because Black possesses a god's soul, him turning SS in the anime just turns his hair pink, no "surpasses SSG" nonsense. It certainly simplifies the power-scaling to an extent, as it means we have no pesky regular SS form to muddy the waters about who stands where in comparison to each other like the manga did during those chapters with SS2 Vegeta and Trunks and whatnot.

It also works out quite well with my own personal power-scaling, because I always placed base Vegeta and Goku at some level of Majin Buu, then SSB a few dozen times stronger than SS3's 400 times multiplier of such a level.

With base Goku Black being stronger than SS3's 400x multiplier, him using regular Super Saiyan's 50x multiplier would easily put him on the same level as SSB.

Toriyama explicitly said Black also has a yellow SSJ form, saying he doesn't runs directly contrary to what Toriyama explicitly wrote.

And that yellow form ALSO disappeared in the manga, turning into the pink-haired form and presumably never appearing again, as it's never distinctly identified as an entirely different form from SS and in fact is implied to be Goku Black's permanent SS form. The explanation given is that it surpassed SSG, and since such reasoning isn't present in the anime in addition to the major writing differences between the two mediums, we can't assume the same is true for the anime.

The anime explicitly never presents the yellow-haired form, and with the knowledge of the manga in mind, it may have been on purpose. A possible head-canon answer would be that SSR "would" have been yellow, but it turned pink, and the anime made no effort to show this, especially given the narrative framework it was working with at the time.

[TheMikado]

The way I see it, because Black possesses a god's soul, him turning SS in the anime just turns his hair pink, no "surpasses SSG" nonsense. It certainly simplifies the power-scaling to an extent, as it means we have no pesky regular SS form to muddy the waters about who stands where in comparison to each other like the manga did during those chapters with SS2 Vegeta and Trunks and whatnot.

It also works out quite well with my own personal power-scaling, because I always placed base Vegeta and Goku at some level of Majin Buu, then SSB a few dozen times stronger than SS3's 400 times multiplier of such a level.

With base Goku Black being stronger than SS3's 400x multiplier, him using regular Super Saiyan's 50x multiplier would easily put him on the same level as SSB.

Toriyama explicitly said Black also has a yellow SSJ form, saying he doesn't runs directly contrary to what Toriyama explicitly wrote.

And that yellow form ALSO disappeared in the manga, turning into the pink-haired form and presumably never appearing again, as it's never distinctly identified as an entirely different form from SS and in fact is implied to be Goku Black's permanent SS form. The explanation given is that it surpassed SSG, and since such reasoning isn't present in the anime in addition to the major writing differences between the two mediums, we can't assume the same is true for the anime.

The anime explicitly never presents the yellow-haired form, and with the knowledge of the manga in mind, it may have been on purpose. A possible head-canon answer would be that SSR "would" have been yellow, but it turned pink, and the anime made no effort to show this, especially given the narrative framework it was working with at the time.

Ok I'm not following this at all. Toriyamas note was that Black can go SSJ in addition to SSR implying he could switch between the two. There's not really a reason to use yellow again after he goes SSR.