PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:And that yellow form ALSO disappeared in the manga, turning into the pink-haired form and presumably never appearing again, as it's never distinctly identified as an entirely different form from SS and in fact is implied to be Goku Black's permanent SS form. The explanation given is that it surpassed SSG, and since such reasoning isn't present in the anime in addition to the major writing differences between the two mediums, we can't assume the same is true for the anime.
The anime explicitly never presents the yellow-haired form, and with the knowledge of the manga in mind, it may have been on purpose. A possible head-canon answer would be that SSR "would" have been yellow, but it turned pink, and the anime made no effort to show this, especially given the narrative framework it was working with at the time.
Ok I'm not following this at all. Toriyamas note was that Black can go SSJ in addition to SSR implying he could switch between the two. There's not really a reason to use yellow again after he goes SSR.
Maybe, but the manga's implication was that SS just turned into SSR because it surpassed SSG, nothing about it being a separate form.
And with the anime, the implication is that SSR is just Goku Black's SS form and a different colour because he's different than an ordinary Saiyan.
With regards to Toriyama, for the manga, it's not necessarily contradictory because both DID exist........ one turned directly into the other one because it became powerful enough. For the anime, it's harder to explain, but it's entirely possible that Goku Black's yellow-haired SS form DID exist........ off-screen, and turned into SSR off-screen.
ChiefWamsutta wrote:I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to? I think Option B makes the most sense given episode 100 and episode 101. SS1 Caulifla and SSBerserker Controlled Kale were about equal in the beam struggle. SSBerserker Kale was a tad stronger than SS2 Caulifla in the second part of the beam struggle.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Personally, I rank the forms like this:
Kaio-ken Super Saiyan Blue [SSB x2-x10]
Super Saiyan Berserker God
Super Saiyan Blue = Super Saiyan Rosé
Super Saiyan Rage
Super Saiyan God >= Super Saiyan with God power >= Saiyan with God power
Super Saiyan 4 Full Power
Super Saiyan Berserker 4
Super Saiyan 4 >= Super Saiyan 2 Full Power
Green Oozaru
Golden Oozaru
Ultimate Saiyan
Super Saiyan Berserker 3
Super Saiyan 3 [base x400] >= Super Saiyan 2 Powered-Up
Super Saiyan Berserker 2
Super Saiyan Berserker
Super Saiyan 2 Grade 3
Super Saiyan 2 [base x100]
Super Saiyan Grade 3
Super Saiyan Grade 2
Super Saiyan Green
Super Saiyan Purple
Super Saiyan [base x50] >= Pseudo Super Saiyan
Oozaru [base x10]
Saiyan
These are all the forms we've seen in all media. I believe that Pseudo Super Saiyan is an imperfect temporary Super Saiyan, so it's almost as strong as the real thing. Super Saiyan Green is Kale's Super Saiyan form, and Super Saiyan Purple is M8 Broli's Super Saiyan form. Seeing that Kale has a special SS form due to her SS Berserker form, I think that Broli's form was also a special SS form after all due to SS Berserker (I don't think it was ever stated that the color change was due to the device), but weaker than Kale's. I also believe that SS2 Powered-Up (Trunks' SS2 from the manga) draws SS3 dormant powers, while SS2 Full Power (Vegeta's SS2 from BoG & the manga) draws SS4 dromant powers, but both variations of SS2 are only slightly weaker than SS3 & SS4 respectively.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:And that yellow form ALSO disappeared in the manga, turning into the pink-haired form and presumably never appearing again, as it's never distinctly identified as an entirely different form from SS and in fact is implied to be Goku Black's permanent SS form. The explanation given is that it surpassed SSG, and since such reasoning isn't present in the anime in addition to the major writing differences between the two mediums, we can't assume the same is true for the anime.
The anime explicitly never presents the yellow-haired form, and with the knowledge of the manga in mind, it may have been on purpose. A possible head-canon answer would be that SSR "would" have been yellow, but it turned pink, and the anime made no effort to show this, especially given the narrative framework it was working with at the time.
Ok I'm not following this at all. Toriyamas note was that Black can go SSJ in addition to SSR implying he could switch between the two. There's not really a reason to use yellow again after he goes SSR.
Maybe, but the manga's implication was that SS just turned into SSR because it surpassed SSG, nothing about it being a separate form.
And with the anime, the implication is that SSR is just Goku Black's SS form and a different colour because he's different than an ordinary Saiyan.
With regards to Toriyama, for the manga, it's not necessarily contradictory because both DID exist........ one turned directly into the other one because it became powerful enough. For the anime, it's harder to explain, but it's entirely possible that Goku Black's yellow-haired SS form DID exist........ off-screen, and turned into SSR off-screen.
Nothing in Toriyamas notes, what they said in the manga, or anything says that it's one in the same. I'm not buying that the yellow haired form was replaced with the SSR form because it didn't happen for Goku or Vegeta so why would it disappear for Black?
ChiefWamsutta wrote:I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to? I think Option B makes the most sense given episode 100 and episode 101. SS1 Caulifla and SSBerserker Controlled Kale were about equal in the beam struggle. SSBerserker Kale was a tad stronger than SS2 Caulifla in the second part of the beam struggle.
ChiefWamsutta wrote:
I saw it as this: Base Goku = Base Gohan < Basil = Lavender = Bergamo < SS1 Goku = SS1 Gohan << Good Buu << SSB Goku < SSB KK Goku
But wouldn't SSJ1 Goku be stronger than Good Buu, and therefore stronger than Gohan? We know Good Buu is like less than half of the power Fat Buu had, that would make Good Buu at least stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta (Buu Arc), but weaker than SSJ2 Goku (Buu Arc). And I think that Goku did surpass that level with his SSJ1 by that point of the series.
Why Goku wasn't able to enter Cocotte Zone ? Why a separate dimension would pose any problem to his Instant Transmission technique, when he has already traveled to other dimensions, like the dimension of the Dead, at King Yemma's palace...
Funny how Goku treated Cauli and Kale like how he would probably treat Trunks and Goten if they came fighting with them.
Goku: You heard them... its dangerous so stand back.
Liquir wrote:Why Goku wasn't able to enter Cocotte Zone ? Why a separate dimension would pose any problem to his Instant Transmission technique, when he has already traveled to other dimensions, like the dimension of the Dead, at King Yemma's palace...
He said he couldn't sense the energy inside the Zone so he wouldn't have had an energy signal to lock on to so that he could teleport to it.
Why is Mystic labeled as a Saiyan transformation? It's the physical realisation of a fighter's latent potential being fully released and then brought beyond its limits. Any character, regardless of what species they hail from, could be labeled as "Mystic" if they were afforded Elder Kaioshin's potential unlocking ritual.
Bullza wrote:He said he couldn't sense the energy inside the Zone so he wouldn't have had an energy signal to lock on to so that he could teleport to it.
So it must be a Dimension with different Laws than the existing Dimensions. Tho that explained, still remains other inconsistencies surrounding the Cocotte Zone. If Physical attacks works on the outside of the dimension ( as proven when 18 moved it ), than why didn't the Kale-Caulifla attack blast it and removed it from it's place. Also another thing, if Kale was able to break it with just a Regular ( Weaker ) Transformation, than shouldn't Android 17 or 18 be able to break it, or perhaps it can only be broken from the inside of the Dimension/Zone?
How high do you guys figure Completed SSBlue's power increase is? Since Vegetto felt like he needed Blue to kill Merged Zamasu, it must be pretty high.
Or was it that Vegetto didn't need Blue to beat Merged Zamasu in martial combat but used it anyway so he could channel as much power as possible to wipe him out, immortality be damned?
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
I'm not sure it's a question of much it increases his power but more so how fast does Super Saiyan Blue's power drop off.
Complete Super Saiyan Blue is just Super Saiyan Blue before it's strength saps away.
Supposedly Vegeta lost over 90% of his Super Saiyan Blue power by the time he fought Hit but he'd only just used the form very briefly to show it to Cabba so that seems kinda ridiculous.
The whole thing was not written well at all in the manga. You'd think it would have been written as a continuation of the Resurrection F movie but there was no notable energy drain there. Goku even went Super Saiyan Blue twice during that fight.
They derided Golden Frieza because he obtained the form, rushed to Earth and then wasn't use to it so it's stamina was shit but Super Saiyan Blue has the exact same problem. The manga wasn't very consistent with the movie at all. How did they even beat Golden Frieza in the manga?
The anime went about it all in a much better way to be honest.
I wasn't really looking for another rant about the manga being ridiculous about Blue's stamina, it is, I'm just wondering how much of an increase perfected Blue is in the manga since Vegetto used Blue himself to fight Merged Zamasu. Is it gigantic or did Vegetto just use Blue to maximize destructive power to kill an immortal mofo?
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Well it's increase would vary depending on how much they'd already lost I suppose.
Completed Super Saiyan Blue Goku would be over ten times as strong as the Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta that fought Hit. Probably several times as strong as the Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta that fought Black.
I'd imagine that Super Saiyan Blue Vegito also rapidly lost strength when he was fighting Zamasu, probably why the fusion barely lasted. I'd guess that Vegito probably needed Super Saiyan Blue, in Base form he likely wouldn't have been stronger than the ordinary Super Saiyan Blue.
Honestly, I like this version of SSB in manga. TOEI simply has not explored anything at all about the transformation. She had great potential and at least Toyotaro deepened it. It really seems like a more important transformation.
Bullza wrote:I'm not sure it's a question of much it increases his power but more so how fast does Super Saiyan Blue's power drop off.
Complete Super Saiyan Blue is just Super Saiyan Blue before it's strength saps away.
Supposedly Vegeta lost over 90% of his Super Saiyan Blue power by the time he fought Hit but he'd only just used the form very briefly to show it to Cabba so that seems kinda ridiculous.
The whole thing was not written well at all in the manga. You'd think it would have been written as a continuation of the Resurrection F movie but there was no notable energy drain there. Goku even went Super Saiyan Blue twice during that fight.
They derided Golden Frieza because he obtained the form, rushed to Earth and then wasn't use to it so it's stamina was shit but Super Saiyan Blue has the exact same problem. The manga wasn't very consistent with the movie at all. How did they even beat Golden Frieza in the manga?
The anime went about it all in a much better way to be honest.
The anime showed several differences in relation to the film FNF. Because this Saga, in the manga, could not be different? The motive of Freeza being ridiculed in this version could only have been very amateur and inexperienced by not getting properly accustomed to its form. The SSB was different, it was still "imperfect" and they perfected throughout the sagas
Bullza wrote:I'm not sure it's a question of much it increases his power but more so how fast does Super Saiyan Blue's power drop off.
Complete Super Saiyan Blue is just Super Saiyan Blue before it's strength saps away.
Supposedly Vegeta lost over 90% of his Super Saiyan Blue power by the time he fought Hit but he'd only just used the form very briefly to show it to Cabba so that seems kinda ridiculous.
The whole thing was not written well at all in the manga. You'd think it would have been written as a continuation of the Resurrection F movie but there was no notable energy drain there. Goku even went Super Saiyan Blue twice during that fight.
They derided Golden Frieza because he obtained the form, rushed to Earth and then wasn't use to it so it's stamina was shit but Super Saiyan Blue has the exact same problem. The manga wasn't very consistent with the movie at all. How did they even beat Golden Frieza in the manga?
The anime went about it all in a much better way to be honest.
The anime showed several differences in relation to the film FNF. Because this Saga, in the manga, could not be different? The motive of Freeza being ridiculed in this version could only have been very amateur and inexperienced by not getting properly accustomed to its form. The SSB was different, it was still "imperfect" and they perfected throughout the sagas
Given the narration of the events of Resurrection F provided in the manga, the story is the same at it's core. Goku and Vegeta use Super Saiyan Blue to defeat Golden Freeza.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Doing my sorta monthly check-in. Is there anything concrete that I missed? How strong is everyone supposed to be these days?
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
So about the stamina issues regarding Super Saiyan Blue, should we take seriously in the show or not? I mean Goku first mentioned that to Hit, that's why he didn't transformed from the start, but in later arcs we had plenty situations of Goku and Vegeta turning into SSJB back and forth and no side effect, with the most recent example being when they defeated the Trio De Dangers combining their signature techniques while in Blue. Shouldn't that waste a lot of stamina? But nah, later Goku was able to transform and launch a powered Kamehameha against LSSJ Kale.
So all that SSJB stamina issues in the anime are pure bullsh*t? Right?
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Noah wrote:So about the stamina issues regarding Super Saiyan Blue, should we take seriously in the show or not? I mean Goku first mentioned that to Hit, that's why he didn't transformed from the start, but in later arcs we had plenty situations of Goku and Vegeta turning into SSJB back and forth and no side effect, with the most recent example being when they defeated the Trio De Dangers combining their signature techniques while in Blue. Shouldn't that waste a lot of stamina? But nah, later Goku was able to transform and launch a powered Kamehameha against LSSJ Kale.
So all that SSJB stamina issues in the anime are pure bullsh*t? Right?
It shouldn't be taken seriously looking at how much they spam blue and they should've just stayed in that form for the whole tournament
RandomGuy96 wrote:Doing my sorta monthly check-in. Is there anything concrete that I missed? How strong is everyone supposed to be these days?
I'm not sure how much there has been that's concrete. The writer of the show said he thinks Gohan and Android 17 are equal then below them is Frost and below him is Piccolo but he said that's just his opinion.
He then ranked the top fighters as
Goku
Vegeta
Frieza
Gohan
Android 17
So if Golden Frieza is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku then I suppose Gohan and Android 17 would be below.
Noah wrote:So about the stamina issues regarding Super Saiyan Blue, should we take seriously in the show or not?
Yeah it should be taken seriously because they've said it twice now and it's also an issue in the manga. However the anime didn't go so overboard with the stamina issue and I honestly can't recall a time in the anime where it's stamina has actually been an issue.
Weren't both Goku and Vegeta in Super Saiyan Blue from when they started fighting Black and Zamasu, all the way throughout them fighting Merged Zamasu?
If anything they were actually stronger towards the end as well.
[/spoiler]
