Amerigo wrote:Goku "Letting His Guard Down" is an artificial handicap
It was never really an issue in OG Dragonball, aside from one or two moments, both outside of combat.
Not sure why they decided for this to be a thing in Super.
Maybe hes just so strong he feels too comfortable now?
But he's 49 years of age, and has been fighting for 35 years. Even if he was cocky and arrogant, which he has always been, there's no way that 3 1/2 decades of fighting experience would suddenly change.
He has let his guard down more times in the past 4 episodes than he did in the entirety of Dragonball and Dragonball Z.
I don't know why people are claiming Goku dropping his guard is a thing that Super has just invented when it's happened in the past. Notably against Piccolo, Vegeta and Freeza.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
I struggle to understand why some people choose to reply with "oh but if he dosen't let his guard down he won't have any weaknesses" - and?
Even if Goku has no outright exploitable weakness, there's no reason a myriad of fighters can't get the better of through teamwork, mental battles or other forms of trickery.
Let's straighten one thing out people, Goku is not and will never be invincible. No matter how strong he gets there's no reason why he should suddenly develop an immunity to psychic attacks, spatial manipulation or other forms of indirect assault.
Personally, I think both Z and Super have focused a bit too much on outright physcial combat at the expense of any other form of fighting. Be it mental, spiritual, etc.
A focus on a battle that can't be solved with Goku's fists would give him room to grow as a character and would hopefully stop debates over why Toei makes him continually drop his guard.
Someone asked me why I invest so much time into collecting Dragonball doujinshi.
I answered, "Because I don't see anyone else doing it".
Where at 1:20 minutes he blocks a sneak attack from his son without even looking. Kinda denoting his long experience as a fighter. Its not that Goku never lets his guard down.
He absolutely does, especially when he thinks he has enemies on the ropes or they start groveling. He the difference is the way its presented. For instance, GT also has Goku caught off guard and blinded as a SSJ4. The feeling is different because Goku never feels like an amateur, merely being caught off guard.
In this particular case, I feel like the gripe is that Goku is both caught off guard, and them seems to be put into lock where he probably could easily power up and break the lock as we have seen him do in the past, but rather chooses not to and continues to take damage. It feels like he was given a lot of artificial handicaps with little pay-off when we see how easily 18 handles the situation. In that case you become hard pressed to say the opponents were just really strong and you're forced back into Goku self inflicting a handicap on himself.
Lord Beerus wrote:I don't know why people are claiming Goku dropping his guard is a thing that Super has just invented when it's happened in the past. Notably against Piccolo, Vegeta and Freeza.
Add Ginyu to the list. That is how Goku got his body stolen. King Piccolo also busted Goku's knee, at least in the anime, but making Goku drop his guard when he threw a rock.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
Hello everyone I made a Goku video discussing the reason why his guard is down. His only weakness really that Whis made apparent in their training. Something Goku then worked hard on when he hired Hit to assassinate him. Goku was completely focused nothing could slip by him. So What changed from then to now? Goku is testing his new powers and abilities. He got some massive power ups from his battle with Hit and hinted at it in the Zen Exhibition match. So I believe that Goku doesn't have his guard up because he doesn't need to. None of these fighters can actually hurt him. Here is the video explaining it.
WhatIfTheories wrote:Hello everyone I made a Goku video discussing the reason why his guard is down. His only weakness really that Whis made apparent in their training. Something Goku then worked hard on when he hired Hit to assassinate him. Goku was completely focused nothing could slip by him. So What changed from then to now? Goku is testing his new powers and abilities. He got some massive power ups from his battle with Hit and hinted at it in the Zen Exhibition match. So I believe that Goku doesn't have his guard up because he doesn't need to. None of these fighters can actually hurt him. Here is the video explaining it.
Lord Beerus wrote:I don't know why people are claiming Goku dropping his guard is a thing that Super has just invented when it's happened in the past. Notably against Piccolo, Vegeta and Freeza.
Because RoF highlighted the issue already and there's been no progression.
Lord Beerus wrote:I don't know why people are claiming Goku dropping his guard is a thing that Super has just invented when it's happened in the past. Notably against Piccolo, Vegeta and Freeza.
That's not the point, idiot. Nobody is saying it's something new. I expect progression and I expect Goku to learn from his mistakes. Him making the same mistakes over and over again is the problem.
Lord Beerus wrote:I don't know why people are claiming Goku dropping his guard is a thing that Super has just invented when it's happened in the past. Notably against Piccolo, Vegeta and Freeza.
That's not the point, idiot. Nobody is saying it's something new. I expect progression and I expect Goku to learn from his mistakes. Him making the same mistakes over and over again is the problem.
While I agree with you, I find it easier to discuss things when being civil.
Lord Beerus wrote:I don't know why people are claiming Goku dropping his guard is a thing that Super has just invented when it's happened in the past. Notably against Piccolo, Vegeta and Freeza.
That's not the point, idiot. Nobody is saying it's something new. I expect progression and I expect Goku to learn from his mistakes. Him making the same mistakes over and over again is the problem.
While I agree with you, I find it easier to discuss things when being civil.
And I find it easier to close my left eye so I can avoid seeing that hideous avatar of yours. Raditz has been irrelevant since the dawn of time.
Lord Beerus wrote:I don't know why people are claiming Goku dropping his guard is a thing that Super has just invented when it's happened in the past. Notably against Piccolo, Vegeta and Freeza.
That's not the point, idiot. Nobody is saying it's something new. I expect progression and I expect Goku to learn from his mistakes. Him making the same mistakes over and over again is the problem.
There was no reason to be insulting in your reply or to TheMikado.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:I don't know why people are claiming Goku dropping his guard is a thing that Super has just invented when it's happened in the past. Notably against Piccolo, Vegeta and Freeza.
That's not the point, idiot. Nobody is saying it's something new. I expect progression and I expect Goku to learn from his mistakes. Him making the same mistakes over and over again is the problem.
There was no reason to be insulting in your reply or to TheMikado.
Cry me a river bitch. You're a soft as cottonelle tissue for a guy who likes Beerus. Say something logical and you won't be called out.
Vegeta123 wrote:
That's not the point, idiot. Nobody is saying it's something new. I expect progression and I expect Goku to learn from his mistakes. Him making the same mistakes over and over again is the problem.
There was no reason to be insulting in your reply or to TheMikado.
Cry me a river bitch. You're a soft as cottonelle tissue for a guy who likes Beerus. Say something logical and you won't be called out.
Dude... seriously... crank it down a few notches or the mods will be on you and you won't last long on this forum. This is place for formal discussions not needless name calling.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:
There was no reason to be insulting in your reply or to TheMikado.
Cry me a river bitch. You're a soft as cottonelle tissue for a guy who likes Beerus. Say something logical and you won't be called out.
Dude... seriously... crank it down a few notches or the mods will be on you and you won't last long on this forum. This is place for formal discussions not needless name calling.
Even if I crank it down a few notches you softies will report me to the mods because you're so sensitive. Well, I don't really blame you for that. We live in a soft society. I'll try to be nicer.
Vegeta123 wrote:
Cry me a river bitch. You're a soft as cottonelle tissue for a guy who likes Beerus. Say something logical and you won't be called out.
Dude... seriously... crank it down a few notches or the mods will be on you and you won't last long on this forum. This is place for formal discussions not needless name calling.
Even if I crank it down a few notches you softies will report me to the mods because you're so sensitive. Well, I don't really blame you for that. We live in a soft society. I'll try to be nicer.
Why not take a stab at discussing the thread topic. I'm sure we will all be thoroughly impressed by your incredibly deep and meaningful commentary.
Is this what Roshi tried to avoid? In 21st World tournament he won just because Goku shouldn't have head weight. I don't think that he is interested in who is going to erased, his thoughts are just about who he is going to fight him and how strong he will be. He looks like he is the same mindset as he had it when he was roaming around world looking for something to eat and someone to fight. The way he said "I'm going to break my limit" to Toppo, he believes his potential so much that he is ready go put his universe in edge of annilation
Lord Beerus wrote:
Dude... seriously... crank it down a few notches or the mods will be on you and you won't last long on this forum. This is place for formal discussions not needless name calling.
Even if I crank it down a few notches you softies will report me to the mods because you're so sensitive. Well, I don't really blame you for that. We live in a soft society. I'll try to be nicer.
Why not take a stab at discussing the thread topic. I'm sure we will all be thoroughly impressed by your incredibly deep and meaningful commentary.
Most certainly. Keep your eye on the birdie though.....here I go
Goku is an idiot who doesn't learn from his mistakes. He always brings his guard down. He did it against that ugly green slug in Dragonball. He did it in RoF, with a gun lazer. He did it against Vegeta.
It's the author's way of saying nobody's perfect, even in combat. It's a flaw that Goku can't fix and should have avoided many times after it happened to him the first time.
What else is there to add here? It's a simple topic.
Last edited by Vegeta123 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vegeta123 wrote:
Even if I crank it down a few notches you softies will report me to the mods because you're so sensitive. Well, I don't really blame you for that. We live in a soft society. I'll try to be nicer.
Why not take a stab at discussing the thread topic. I'm sure we will all be thoroughly impressed by your incredibly deep and meaningful commentary.
Most certainly. Keep your eye on the birdie though.....here I go
Goku is an idiot who doesn't learn from his mistakes. He continuously brings his guard down. He did it against that ugly green slug in Dragonball. He did it in RoF, with a gun lazer. He did it against Vegeta.
It's the author's way of saying nobody's perfect, even in combat. It's a flaw that Goku can simply not shake and should have avoided many times after it happened to him the first time.
What else is there to add here? It's a simple topic.
Excellent post, I won't grade this one and consider it a rough draft, now we will test your critical thinking skills.
Do you feel that the continued use of the plot device hurts the narrative or should it be continued to be used as his established character flaw and personal weakness?
TheMikado wrote:
Why not take a stab at discussing the thread topic. I'm sure we will all be thoroughly impressed by your incredibly deep and meaningful commentary.
Most certainly. Keep your eye on the birdie though.....here I go
Goku is an idiot who doesn't learn from his mistakes. He continuously brings his guard down. He did it against that ugly green slug in Dragonball. He did it in RoF, with a gun lazer. He did it against Vegeta.
It's the author's way of saying nobody's perfect, even in combat. It's a flaw that Goku can simply not shake and should have avoided many times after it happened to him the first time.
What else is there to add here? It's a simple topic.
Excellent post, I won't grade this one and consider it a rough draft, now we will test your critical thinking skills.
Do you feel that the continued use of the plot device hurts the narrative or should it be continued to be used as his established character flaw and personal weakness?
My my my, Raditz. I'm flattered. Now take that scouter off and read so you won't get distracted:
It doesn't hurt the narrative. It hurts Goku's fans because they expect progression in his character. They expect him to improve, and it annoys them every time he makes this error.
It's better to keep this as a flaw Goku has. Although they shouldn't use it as much as they do in this crap of a tournament we are watching. Don't use this plot device against fodder characters. They should use it sparingly as he fights a major villain. That creates more drama in the show, to have him almost beat a major villain and then he makes this habitual mistake. Goku is about willpower, and at that point the audience will watch him overcome the odds yet again.
Not every aggressive guy is stupid, I just don't like cupcake softies like Lord Beerus who get offended so easily. Soon it will be offensive to call someone a he or a she, that's how secular we are becoming, but that's another topic for another day.
