Does Super amplify Dragon Ball's problems?

[MaskedRider]

Not sure how to word the title but an interesting observation I made in discussions over at the Super sub-forum is that when a thread is made talking about a problem that the user had with how they handle a character or fight or what have you another user is able to bring up a time in DB or Z where it happened and I wanted to know your thoughts if Super is not much different than its predecessors or its amplifying problems too much?

[dbgtFO]

Yeah, it's called flanderization, I believe.
Kinda like a parody, that blows elements from before way out of proportion. No wonder I and others at times get a One-Punch Man and DBZ Abrigded vibe from the writing in the show.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

All of the problems with DBS can be applied to the elder series especially Z. They're just as a bad. People have probably realised that DB isn't the worlds best written thing and have probably been exposed to more better series and so DBS not willing to evolve with its fans is what I think causes some people to have problems with it. With Dragon Ball you can get away with shody writing that perhaps you can't other series. But I do also think the elder series to an extent do get grandfathered a bit.

[sintzu]

I think the biggest difference between the 2 (Super and the original) is consistancy. Everything in the original felt natural, from the way events unfolded to how characters acted and the roles they played. Even when events took a completely different turn like the start of the Saiyan arc, everything still felt like it was part of one story. You could tell from start to finish that it was the work of one man. Yes the original had problems but due to there only being one man in charge he knew what his weaknesses were and found ways to cover them up better.

Super on the other hand is all over the place which could be due to the amount of people involved with it. You've got Toriyama, Toyotarou, Toei, Bandai, the DB room and god knows who else. Everyone has their idea about how characters should act so in certain episodes Goku will act completely different from another episode for no reason, You've got all the call backs to previous material like with Kale being a Broly clone, you've got Trunks being unnatually strong in one version while more in lines with the original on the other, etc. If Super was a weekly manga from Toyotarou and Toriyama and they were the only 2 in charge then I believe we would've ended up with a far superior product.

[BlueBasilisk]

All of the problems with DBS can be applied to the elder series especially Z. They're just as a bad. People have probably realised that DB isn't the worlds best written thing and have probably been exposed to more better series and so DBS not willing to evolve with its fans is what I think causes some people to have problems with it. With Dragon Ball you can get away with shody writing that perhaps you can't other series. But I do also think the elder series to an extent do get grandfathered a bit.

I feel like it has the same issues as the original but now people are seeing them without the benefit of 20 years of Toriyama interviews, Q&As and guidebooks to patch up any inconsistencies, unexplained events or vanishing characters. Another thing is that Super doesn't always have the extreme decompression in storytelling that Z had where things that took only a few minutes or a couple hours in-universe take up hours and hours of screen time.

[ekrolo2]

It's the logical continuation of a series that started creaking loudly around the Cell arc and has failed to bring people in who get where it was going wrong.

Pretty much everything bad about post-Namek DB is in full swing and worse then before.

[Gray Riders]

I agree that it's less that Super's problems are new, so much as what I disliked about the later Z era feels amplified.

[TheBigBoy]

You're older and more critical than when you first watched Z.

[ABED]

From everything I'm reading Super is yet another in a long line of revivals that all share the same problems. The magic is gone, the series is too interested in playing off nostalgia, and the characters are stuck or regressed from when we last saw them.

[TheMikado]

Ok so this is pretty much that same exact thing people said to justify the new Ghostbusters movie.

The fact of the matter is that is no where near as quantifiably well written. We talk about flanderization and that's exactly what happens. A comparison of the characters between the original Ghostbusters and the new film fines characters who are portrayed are exaggerated copies of their original counterparts. Yet your able to go back and watch the original without blinking much. The key difference is the writing, it's the direction, it's the consistency. Once your brought into that world, you're engulfed in it. It's not a matter of being "older". I watched Kale and Broly back to back. I watched an infant, who was the saiyan equivalent of a messiah, attempting to be murdered in his crib while his father pleaded for their lives and their presumed dead bodies thrown into a garbage heap like trash with the father stabbed and clamouring over garbage to his presumed dead son. Then watching as the child miraculously lifted himself and his father from the garbage heap as Mass Genoside from a sadistic Space Pirate was excuted all around them.

I watched the Prince of this genecidocally executed race wimper like a small child on the presence of the thing he admired so much and what his own father sought to destroy and then having a Namekian belittle him and toss this proud Saiyan Prince aside like a heap of trash.

I watched Paragus try to subdue his sadistic and evil son with mind control mechanisms all the while trying to exact revenge against the son of the man who tried to kill his own son. In the process realizing that King Vegetas judgement to kill his son may have been correct and his love for his son blinded him to the monster he was in the same way that Broly blinded him in one eye.

I watched Goku actively defend his son when Broly targeted Gohan and Vegeta rage as the Prince of ALL Saiyans.

Then I watched Kale rage and hulk out because Senpai was talking to someone else. This happened on two occasions now..

My point being that the way and style is was written in was simultaneously much darker while still maintaining a lighthearted presence. The style has changed, the presentation has changed. Not everyone is going to like it, but these are NOT the same problems the original has. We can see that Toriyama took great efforts to keep his power pyramid consistent. So much so that every enemy between Vegeta and Frieza was literally stronger than his normal form but weaker than his Oozaru form. Do you really think it's a coincidence that every enemy in Freeza's army above Vegeta had a power level between 18,000 and 180,000 Oozaru Vegeta? Or that Toriyama literally invented multiple plot devices to give every single saiyan a new form during the Buu arc. Claiming that this is the same as before is a discredit and dishonor to Toriyamas work and no true fan of the series could ever see these issues as "the same".

[Lord Beerus]

In the "show, don't tell" aspect, absolutely. As much as I like Super and am willing to defend its problems, it flat out abuses at times that writing technique.

Dragon Ball's never had a detailed story, and the world building itself isn't all it's cracked up to be, but with Super, especially with the anime, more times than often, the show is fine with just taking the option of not bothering to provide any kind of detail or background or tidbit in scenarios where it could desperately need it. The Future Trunks arc, as much I really like the arc, was the worst offender of this. Elements like how Goku Black got much stronger with every fight, Future Trunks raging Super Saiyan form and how Zamasu merged with the universe were left vague and unexplained.

There have always been instances in the franchise where events have happened and forms had been achieved off-screen and you think to yourself, "How did that happened?" But would could always look back the manga or anime and in most instances you'd get a throwaway line or flashback or filler moment that could at least provide some form of context to the fill the void of information that was needed to understand the scenario. In Super, we barely, if at all, get that. And any explanation we do get just makes thing more complicated. It really frustrates me. Some episodes really make me feel like I'm watching GT again.

[ABED]

In the "show, don't tell" aspect, absolutely. As much as I like Super and am willing to defend its problems, it flat out abuses at times that writing technique.

Dragon Ball's never had a detailed story, and the world building itself isn't all it's cracked up to be, but with Super, especially with the anime, more times than often, the show is fine with just taking the option of not bothering to provide any kind of detail or background or tidbit in scenarios where it could desperately need it. The Future Trunks arc, as much I really like the arc, was the worst offender of this. Elements like how Goku Black got much stronger with every fight, Future Trunks raging Super Saiyan form and how Zamasu merged with the universe were left vague and unexplained.

There have always been instances in the franchise where events have happened and forms had been achieved off-screen and you think to yourself, "How did that happened?" But would could always look back the manga or anime and in most instances you'd get a throwaway line or flashback or filler moment that could at least provide some form of context to the fill the void of information that was needed to understand the scenario. In Super, we barely, if at all, get that. And any explanation we do get just makes thing more complicated. It really frustrates me. Some episodes really make me feel like I'm watching GT again.

What you are talking about aren't examples of "show, don't tell". That's flat out not explaining in any way and not providing any relevant context or setup.

[sintzu]

You're older and more critical than when you first watched Z.

I've been a fan of the original for 12 years now and still like it so it has nothing to do with age. Yeah that applies somethings but for me at least, not DB.

The magic is gone.

the series is too interested in playing off nostalgia.

the characters are stuck or regressed from when we last saw them.

The original's production method is long gone (computer animation instead of Cel shaded), the production team from back then have all (or most) moved on to other projects & Toriyama isn't the same person he was back then.

This is its biggest problem, it has great ideas but its to afraid to excute them on their own so they fill them up with nostalgia. Freeza had no business coming back so instead they should've just brought back some ancient evil, no one brought up his connections to the heroes so they might've as well just introduced a new villain instead. Trunks' arc was complete and the Zamasu arc could've easily worked without him. Instead of making up new moves they keep making call backs to things like final flash and kaioken.

Everyone's arcs were complete by the end of Buu so what else can they do ?

[precita]

Everyone's arcs were complete by the end of Buu so what else can they do ?

What they should have done with EOZ. Have Trunks, Goten, Pan and Uub as the new main heroes. Characters who barely had their arcs explored instead of focusing on the older cast.

[sintzu]

I watched an infant, who was the saiyan equivalent of a messiah, attempting to be murdered in his crib while his father pleaded for their lives and their presumed dead bodies thrown into a garbage heap like trash with the father stabbed and clamouring over garbage to his presumed dead son. Then watching as the child miraculously lifted himself and his father from the garbage heap as Mass Genoside from a sadistic Space Pirate was excuted all around them.

I watched the Prince of this genecidocally executed race wimper like a small child on the presence of the thing he admired so much and what his own father sought to destroy and then having a Namekian belittle him and toss this proud Saiyan Prince aside like a heap of trash.

I watched Paragus try to subdue his sadistic and evil son with mind control mechanisms all the while trying to exact revenge against the son of the man who tried to kill his own son. In the process realizing that King Vegetas judgement to kill his son may have been correct and his love for his son blinded him to the monster he was in the same way that Broly blinded him in one eye.

I watched Goku actively defend his son when Broly targeted Gohan and Vegeta rage as the Prince of ALL Saiyans.

Then I watched Kale rage and hulk out because Senpai was talking to someone else. This happened on two occasions now..

I wish I could put my thoughts into words this good. This pretty much sums up the differences in the writing yet you'll have people say they're the same.

Claiming that this is the same as before is a discredit and dishonor to Toriyamas work and no true fan of the series could ever see these issues as "the same".

I don't believe for a second that the people who say they're the same can't see the difference, I think it's more that they've waited so long for it that they just want to convince themselves it was worth it even though deep down they're disappointed. Either that or their standerds for the franchise are extremely low.

What they should have done with EOZ. Have Trunks, Goten, Pan and Uub as the new main heroes. Characters who barely had their arcs explored instead of focusing on the older cast.

Boruto is doing that and the results aren't really good so far. I think new characters should've been brought into the spotlight like before while keeping the old characters around to help develop the new ones.

[ABED]

Everyone's arcs were complete by the end of Buu so what else can they do ?

A talented writer can come up with something.

[sintzu]

A talented writer can come up with something.

That's the problem, writing has taken a back seat to merchandise. When the original was written it was mainly a stroy so you didn't have anything like the gimmicks you have now, it focused on developing the characters and world. Even when the Ssj form was introduced it was still about the story and characters.

Now it's just "look at this form", "what form will Goku get next!!!", "what nostalgia villain will come back", "what classic attack will make a return", etc. Super has shown time and again that it has great ideas but they've been overshadowed by what I just mentioned.

[Lord Beerus]

In the "show, don't tell" aspect, absolutely. As much as I like Super and am willing to defend its problems, it flat out abuses at times that writing technique.

Dragon Ball's never had a detailed story, and the world building itself isn't all it's cracked up to be, but with Super, especially with the anime, more times than often, the show is fine with just taking the option of not bothering to provide any kind of detail or background or tidbit in scenarios where it could desperately need it. The Future Trunks arc, as much I really like the arc, was the worst offender of this. Elements like how Goku Black got much stronger with every fight, Future Trunks raging Super Saiyan form and how Zamasu merged with the universe were left vague and unexplained.

There have always been instances in the franchise where events have happened and forms had been achieved off-screen and you think to yourself, "How did that happened?" But would could always look back the manga or anime and in most instances you'd get a throwaway line or flashback or filler moment that could at least provide some form of context to the fill the void of information that was needed to understand the scenario. In Super, we barely, if at all, get that. And any explanation we do get just makes thing more complicated. It really frustrates me. Some episodes really make me feel like I'm watching GT again.

What you are talking about aren't examples of "show, don't tell". That's flat out not explaining in any way and not providing any relevant context or setup.

And that's how they abuse the concept of "show, don't tell". The show can only rule on "Rule of Cool" and "Rule of Symbolism" so much before they have to take step back and actually explain how some scenarios unfold. The Genki Dama Sword the nadir of the nonsense Dragon Ball Super can produce. Yeah, it looks pretty nice. And the meaning behind it is sincere given the nature of the arc it happens in. But you're ultimately left asking, "Okay, how did Future Trunks do that?"

[sintzu]

There have always been instances in the franchise where events have happened and forms had been achieved off-screen and you think to yourself, "How did that happened?" But would could always look back the manga or anime and in most instances you'd get a throwaway line or flashback or filler moment that could at least provide some form of context to the fill the void of information that was needed to understand the scenario. In Super, we barely, if at all, get that. And any explanation we do get just makes thing more complicated. It really frustrates me.

I think it's just sloppy writing by people who don't really care about what they're doing so assume the viewers won't either.

The Genki Dama Sword looks pretty nice. And the meaning behind it is sincere given the nature of the arc it happens in. But you're ultimately left asking, "Okay, how did Future Trunks do that?"

Most problems like this can be fixed with one lines like, "this is the result of my training with King Kai" or something like that.

[Lord Beerus]

There have always been instances in the franchise where events have happened and forms had been achieved off-screen and you think to yourself, "How did that happened?" But would could always look back the manga or anime and in most instances you'd get a throwaway line or flashback or filler moment that could at least provide some form of context to the fill the void of information that was needed to understand the scenario. In Super, we barely, if at all, get that. And any explanation we do get just makes thing more complicated. It really frustrates me.

I think it's just sloppy writing by people who don't really care about what they're doing so assume the viewers won't either.

The Genki Dama Sword looks pretty nice. And the meaning behind it is sincere given the nature of the arc it happens in. But you're ultimately left asking, "Okay, how did Future Trunks do that?"

Most problems like this can be fixed with one lines like, "this is the result of my training with King Kai" or something like that.

The writers absolutely do care. Don't ever think they don't. They are doing their best with the demands given to them by the series directors, who themselves take orders form much highers powers (Shueisha, Bandai, TV sponsors and Toei).

The "this is the result of my training with King Kai" reason can't work in-universe for several reasons.