Does Super amplify Dragon Ball's problems?

[ABED]

Good writing is definitely difficult and unless someone outright says it, I would rather not say "they do/don't care". However, that's not all that relevant because at the end of the day if the story is the product of shoddy craftsmanship, I don't care that much whether the writer puts their heart and sole into it.

[sintzu]

They are doing their best with the demands given to them by the series directors, who themselves take orders form much highers powers (Shueisha, Bandai, TV sponsors and Toei).

The "this is the result of my training with King Kai" reason can't work in-universe for several reasons.

Are those directors telling them not to explain things or write inconsistantaly ? I don't know much about how things work behind the scenes so maybe I was wrong.

Maybe not but they should've just said anything, say he learned it from the Kais during his training to fight Dabura for example.

If the story is the product of shoddy craftsmanship, I don't care that much whether the writer puts their heart and sole into it.

Every bit counts, even if the basic story isn't that good, good writing and other things can help make up for it.

[ekrolo2]

Someone doesn't need to care about something to make a good story, Warren Ellis has consistently proven that it's entirely possible for a writer to not give one iota of a fuck about something and still craft a well told tale regardless. Look at his recent Castlevania show, as per usual, Ellis flat out says he doesn't care about the games nor has he played them and the shows writing is really strong regardless.

[ABED]

Every bit counts, even if the basic story isn't that good, good writing and other things can help make up for it.

I'm unsure what you mean by basic story. I don't know how a basic story can't be good but good writing can make up for it. That seems antithetical.

[ekrolo2]

Every bit counts, even if the basic story isn't that good, good writing and other things can help make up for it.

I'm unsure what you mean by basic story. I don't know how a basic story can't be good but good writing can make up for it. That seems antithetical.

The Bardock special is kind of a good example, on the barest of bones it sounds like total shit. Goku's dad is a low class warrior who's also the second strongest Saiyan besides Vegeta and he gets the ability to see into the future and dies trying to stop Freeza. That could've gone in a LOT of horrendous directions but the special avoids most of them.

On a character level, Goku Black is the worst shit ever of all time, an in continuity evil Goku who's literally the only consistently good thing Super's managed to do thanks to Nozawa's performance and his ability to be battle loving maniac but also pragmatic and cool headed at all times.

[ABED]

Every bit counts, even if the basic story isn't that good, good writing and other things can help make up for it.

I'm unsure what you mean by basic story. I don't know how a basic story can't be good but good writing can make up for it. That seems antithetical.

The Bardock special is kind of a good example, on the barest of bones it sounds like total shit. Goku's dad is a low class warrior who's also the second strongest Saiyan besides Vegeta and he gets the ability to see into the future and dies trying to stop Freeza. That could've gone in a LOT of horrendous directions but the special avoids most of them.

On a character level, Goku Black is the worst shit ever of all time, an in continuity evil Goku who's literally the only consistently good thing Super's managed to do thanks to Nozawa's performance and his ability to be battle loving maniac but also pragmatic and cool headed at all times.

That's not a story as much as a summary, and the basic idea of the Bardock special is fine, but your mileage varies. The way I think of it is that ideas are easy. The true art is in the execution. Anyone can come up with a good sounding idea, but it's the execution that makes it a story. A good artist can take a bad sounding idea and make it great. Conversely, a terrible artist can take a good idea and turn it into garbage. Ultimately we agree, but I came it in a slightly different direction.

[sintzu]

Goku Black is the worst shit ever of all time, an in continuity evil Goku who's literally the only consistently good thing Super's managed to do thanks to Nozawa's performance and his ability to be battle loving maniac but also pragmatic and cool headed at all times.

I was just going to bring this up, an overused idea that had so much going against it turned out to be one of the best things in the franchise thanks to the writing. It'll be interesting to see if the English dub can capture what made him so great.

[omaro34]

All of the problems with DBS can be applied to the elder series especially Z. They're just as a bad. People have probably realised that DB isn't the worlds best written thing and have probably been exposed to more better series and so DBS not willing to evolve with its fans is what I think causes some people to have problems with it. With Dragon Ball you can get away with shody writing that perhaps you can't other series. But I do also think the elder series to an extent do get grandfathered a bit.

Nostalgia my friend. When they wear they're nostalgic glasses and Z could do no wrong. Too bad the original Dragonball doesn't get the same love, it is highly underrated in my opinion. Anyone who just watched Z onwards without watching Dragonball aren't true fans in my eyes.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

All of the problems with DBS can be applied to the elder series especially Z. They're just as a bad. People have probably realised that DB isn't the worlds best written thing and have probably been exposed to more better series and so DBS not willing to evolve with its fans is what I think causes some people to have problems with it. With Dragon Ball you can get away with shody writing that perhaps you can't other series. But I do also think the elder series to an extent do get grandfathered a bit.

Nostalgia my friend. When they wear they're nostalgic glasses and Z could do no wrong. Too bad the original Dragonball doesn't get the same love, it is highly underrated in my opinion. Anyone who just watched Z onwards without watching Dragonball aren't true fans in my eyes.

It wasn't until me watching Dragon Ball that I realised that the franchise could be so much fun & that's primarily why I like Super it's just fun above all else. You slowly see the shift in seriousness through DB into Z and then from Z into Super the Buu arc sort if brings the fun feeling back but still serious when it needs to be and that continues into Super.

I do agree OG DB needs more love but with how it was glossed over with in things like Kai it sadly doesn't look like it matters much to the likes of Toei as well.

[ABED]

Serious and fun aren't antithetical.

[ekrolo2]

I definitely agree with people that it's asinine for a contingent to assume DB and Z were pure gold and it's GT & Super that've suddenly decided to shit the bed. No guys, DBs problems were a long time coming given the kind of writer Toriyama is, it's just a combination of luck and skill from him managing to have it work for as long as it does but his ability to do so drops parallel to the series quality.

Does that excuse Super? No because Dragon Ball is so simple of a series you'd have to be a pants shitting idiot not to make it work or learn from past mistakes but acting as though horrid scalling, bad animation, next to no internal consistency are GT and/or Super exclusive issues is about as right as 2+2=5

[precita]

I think the problem is standards in 2015-2017 for shows is a lot different than it was in the 90's.

Nowadays people view TV completely differently. Serialized shows that go on in the modern year have to do something really good or special to be worthwhile. We're not in 1995 anymore.

[ABED]

I think the problem is standards in 2015-2017 for shows is a lot different than it was in the 90's.

Nowadays people view TV completely differently. Serialized shows that go on in the modern year have to do something really good or special to be worthwhile. We're not in 1995 anymore.

I don't understand your point. There's more competition but TV wasn't worse back then. There was less, but there's still plenty of great TV in the 90s.

[precita]

I think the problem is standards in 2015-2017 for shows is a lot different than it was in the 90's.

Nowadays people view TV completely differently. Serialized shows that go on in the modern year have to do something really good or special to be worthwhile. We're not in 1995 anymore.

I don't understand your point. There's more competition but TV wasn't worse back then. There was less, but there's still plenty of great TV in the 90s.

What I meant is back in the 90's a lot of shows were still all new and fresh, and a lot of concepts hadn't been done before. Now in the 2000's, we've essentially seen everything. Everything has already been done by countless shows. So standards are higher so it doesn't feel like, "same old" or "a rehash."

[SaiyanGod117]

The writers absolutely do care. Don't ever think they don't. They are doing their best with the demands given to them by the series directors, who themselves take orders form much highers powers (Shueisha, Bandai, TV sponsors and Toei).

The "this is the result of my training with King Kai" reason can't work in-universe for several reasons.

The writers probably do care,( maybe) they suck at there jobs though and need to be replaced immediately.

Shueisha and Bandai have no involvement with the Series production at all, and the only entitys in-charge of the production are Fuji TV, Yomiko advertising, and Toei animation. Toei is to blame for mostly everything, if not everything, that's wrong with DBS.

[ABED]

I think the problem is standards in 2015-2017 for shows is a lot different than it was in the 90's.

Nowadays people view TV completely differently. Serialized shows that go on in the modern year have to do something really good or special to be worthwhile. We're not in 1995 anymore.

I don't understand your point. There's more competition but TV wasn't worse back then. There was less, but there's still plenty of great TV in the 90s.

What I meant is back in the 90's a lot of shows were still all new and fresh, and a lot of concepts hadn't been done before. Now in the 2000's, we've essentially seen everything. Everything has already been done by countless shows. So standards are higher so it doesn't feel like, "same old" or "a rehash."

People said that back then as well.

[TheMikado]

I'm not blaming this on the bunch of freelance writers when it should be the directors issue to pull it all together. Further I can't blame it on the myriad number of directors Super has had in its short two year span.

The problem is what Super is. It's a completely different animal than DB, Z, or even GT. With those series it had one goal. Toei were hoping to make a sh*t ton of money off of a highly successful manga. As such the anime was the product! Even with GT the anime itself was the product and thus quality was priority. In Supers case the anime isn't the product, it's the merchandising mechanism to promote products as sponsored by Bandai.

The anime in and of itself is like a promotional booklet or manga, if it happens to be good that's great, if it's not but sells a ton of toys that's great too.

[Beek King]

All of the problems with DBS can be applied to the elder series especially Z. They're just as a bad. People have probably realised that DB isn't the worlds best written thing and have probably been exposed to more better series and so DBS not willing to evolve with its fans is what I think causes some people to have problems with it. With Dragon Ball you can get away with shody writing that perhaps you can't other series. But I do also think the elder series to an extent do get grandfathered a bit.

Yes and no. Since people are bringing up TVTropes one trope that describes the situation is "Franchise Original Sin". Basically lots of Super's problems were already budding in DB and Z but they're mostly noticeable in the older series now thanks to hindsight.
Really though you can't say it's always been the same, the original manga wasn't the best writing it the world but it worked, simply because it was organic. Most of Super's stories feel tacked on so to speak, none of it would make any sense if it wasn't for all the baggage the series accumulated in its original run.

[Lord Beerus]

The writers absolutely do care. Don't ever think they don't. They are doing their best with the demands given to them by the series directors, who themselves take orders from much higher powers (Shueisha, Bandai, TV sponsors and Toei).

The "this is the result of my training with King Kai" reason can't work in-universe for several reasons.

The writers probably do care,( maybe) they suck at there jobs though and need to be replaced immediately.

Shueisha and Bandai have no involvement with the Series production at all, and the only entitys in-charge of the production are Fuji TV, Yomiko advertising, and Toei animation. Toei is to blame for mostly everything, if not everything, that's wrong with DBS.

That's not fair dude. Like, come on. It's all subjective.

Bandai play a big part in sponsoring and financing not just Super, but Dragon Ball as a whole. Bandai Namco is one of, if not the biggest, sponsor backing Dragon Ball. If any new Dragon Ball content is produced they almost always have a say in it. It's an even bigger deal with Shueisha because they outright own Dragon Ball as a property and have the authority to dictate how long Super will last and and what direction it will go into. I mean, Toyotaro has send over his storyboards of the manga over to Shueisha (and Toriyama), and has to gain their approval before he can even begin to draw. Shueisha have an huge overreaching influence on what get's done and how it gets done in Dragon Ball.

[SaiyanGod117]

The writers absolutely do care. Don't ever think they don't. They are doing their best with the demands given to them by the series directors, who themselves take orders from much higher powers (Shueisha, Bandai, TV sponsors and Toei).

The "this is the result of my training with King Kai" reason can't work in-universe for several reasons.

The writers probably do care,( maybe) they suck at there jobs though and need to be replaced immediately.

Shueisha and Bandai have no involvement with the Series production at all, and the only entitys in-charge of the production are Fuji TV, Yomiko advertising, and Toei animation. Toei is to blame for mostly everything, if not everything, that's wrong with DBS.

That's not fair dude. Like, come on. It's all subjective.

Bandai play a big part in sponsoring and financing not just Super, but Dragon Ball as a whole. Bandai Namco is one of, if not the biggest, sponsor backing Dragon Ball. If any new Dragon Ball content is produced they almost always hvae a say in it. It's an even bigger deal with Shueisha because they outright own Dragon Ball as a property and have the authority to dictate how long Super will last and and what direction it will go into. I mean, Toyotaro has send over his storyboards of the manga over to Shueisha (and Toriyama), and has to gain their approval before he can even begin to draw. Shueisha have an huge overreaching influence on what get's done and how it gets done in Dragon Ball.

No their terrible writers, just because it's an opinion doesn't invalidate it from the contrary.

Again, Bandai plays no part in the TV production side of Dragon Ball Super, Bandai is one of the many companies that merchandise the franchise. Shueisha, Happinet, etc. are all merchandising companies that have a vested interest in Dragon Ball Super. However, they are at the mercy of Toei and Fuji TV, who are producing the series. Shueisha also has no real significant involvement, other than coordinating the Dragon Ball Super manga with Toei, the companies with the decision making power are the aforementioned I mentioned in my previous post. The only way Bandai would actually have any control over the TV production side of Dragon Ball is if Bandai hired Toei to create a new Dragon Ball series. However, we all know that is not the case, Toei and Fuji TV collaborated together and began producing the series, as has always been the case with Dragon Ball, and then they sell certain merchandising rights to various companies, such as Bandai, allowing them to produce figures, cards, board games, mobile apps, etc.