Does Super amplify Dragon Ball's problems?

[Bullza]

Not really, I just think people tend to whine about things more now than they used to.

Back in the day you'd watch it as a kid on TV and just enjoy it for what it is. Now we're in the internet age, everyone has an opinion and wants to make sure everyone else knows about it, of course most the time it's just complaining.

[TheMikado]

The writers probably do care,( maybe) they suck at there jobs though and need to be replaced immediately.

Shueisha and Bandai have no involvement with the Series production at all, and the only entitys in-charge of the production are Fuji TV, Yomiko advertising, and Toei animation. Toei is to blame for mostly everything, if not everything, that's wrong with DBS.

That's not fair dude. Like, come on. It's all subjective.

Bandai play a big part in sponsoring and financing not just Super, but Dragon Ball as a whole. Bandai Namco is one of, if not the biggest, sponsor backing Dragon Ball. If any new Dragon Ball content is produced they almost always hvae a say in it. It's an even bigger deal with Shueisha because they outright own Dragon Ball as a property and have the authority to dictate how long Super will last and and what direction it will go into. I mean, Toyotaro has send over his storyboards of the manga over to Shueisha (and Toriyama), and has to gain their approval before he can even begin to draw. Shueisha have an huge overreaching influence on what get's done and how it gets done in Dragon Ball.

No their terrible writers, just because it's an opinion doesn't invalidate it from the contrary.

Again, Bandai plays no part in the TV production side of Dragon Ball Super, Bandai is one of the many companies that merchandise the franchise. Shueisha, Happinet, etc. are all merchandising companies that have a vested interest in Dragon Ball Super. However, they are at the mercy of Toei and Fuji TV, who are producing the series. Shueisha also has no real significant involvement, other than coordinating the Dragon Ball Super manga with Toei, the companies with the decision making power are the aforementioned I mentioned in my previous post. The only way Bandai would actually have any control over the TV production side of Dragon Ball is if Bandai hired Toei to create a new Dragon Ball series. However, we all know that is not the case, Toei and Fuji TV collaborated together and began producing the series, as has always been the case with Dragon Ball, and then they sell certain merchandising rights to various companies, such as Bandai, allowing them to produce figures, cards, board games, mobile apps, etc.

No that's not true at all, think of the sponsors as "investors" while they have no direct control on the day to day operations, they can seriously impact it because they control the purse strings. If the didn't like a specific writer or director and threatened to pull funding, guess who's leaving first? The sponsors don't sponsor it out of the kindness of their heart. They expect a return on their investment. They expect more merchandise to sell. Like you said the only way Bandai would have control is if they hired Toei to produce it in their behalf, but that's basically what Toei is doing as Bandai is sponsoring the series. What do you think that means? Anyway the point is that it's very likely Super exists by Bandais good graces of funding it. So yes they have say in it.

[TheMikado]

Not really, I just think people tend to whine about things more now than they used to.

Back in the day you'd watch it as a kid on TV and just enjoy it for what it is. Now we're in the internet age, everyone has an opinion and wants to make sure everyone else knows about it, of course most the time it's just complaining.

I don't think that's the case, I always use power scaling as an example. Toriyama was meticulous in that. Every one of Freeza's henchmen that were above Vegeta were also lower than Vegetas Oozaru form. This made Vegeta the second strongest in the universe. It's not coincidence it was deliberate planning. It was really excellent attention to detail. Although he wasn't perfect, these things were taken into consideration where they may not be in Super.

[SaiyanGod117]

No that's not true at all, think of the sponsors as "investors" while they have no direct control on the day to day operations, they can seriously impact it because they control the purse strings. If the didn't like a specific writer or director and threatened to pull funding, guess who's leaving first? The sponsors don't sponsor it out of the kindness of their heart. They expect a return on their investment. They expect more merchandise to sell. Like you said the only way Bandai would have control is if they hired Toei to produce it in their behalf, but that's basically what Toei is doing as Bandai is sponsoring the series. What do you think that means? Anyway the point is that it's very likely Super exists by Bandais good graces of funding it. So yes they have say in it.

Honestly where are you people getting this from? If Toei is adhering to some over the table arrangement to Bandai it's by choice, not by force.

I will reiterate, Bandai plays no part in the TV production side of Dragon Ball Super, Bandai is one of the many companies that merchandise the franchise. Shueisha, Happinet, etc. are all merchandising companies that have a vested interest in Dragon Ball Super. However, they are at the mercy of Toei and Fuji TV, who are producing the series. This isn't a Bandai Namco and Sunrise relationship, where Sunrise is a subsidiary of Bandai and they have a say in everything all from the theme and writing to all the way down to the characters. But again this isn't the case, Bandai has to work with what they got, and even Bandai wanted to hire Toei to do a new DB Series, Toei would have to agree to it first.

[TheMikado]

No that's not true at all, think of the sponsors as "investors" while they have no direct control on the day to day operations, they can seriously impact it because they control the purse strings. If the didn't like a specific writer or director and threatened to pull funding, guess who's leaving first? The sponsors don't sponsor it out of the kindness of their heart. They expect a return on their investment. They expect more merchandise to sell. Like you said the only way Bandai would have control is if they hired Toei to produce it in their behalf, but that's basically what Toei is doing as Bandai is sponsoring the series. What do you think that means? Anyway the point is that it's very likely Super exists by Bandais good graces of funding it. So yes they have say in it.

Honestly where are you people getting this from? If Toei is adhering to some over the table arrangement to Bandai it's by choice, not by force.

I will reiterate, Bandai plays no part in the TV production side of Dragon Ball Super, Bandai is one of the many companies that merchandise the franchise. Shueisha, Happinet, etc. are all merchandising companies that have a vested interest in Dragon Ball Super. However, they are at the mercy of Toei and Fuji TV, who are producing the series. This isn't a Bandai Namco and Sunrise relationship, where Sunrise is a subsidiary of Bandai and they have a say in everything all from the theme and writing to all the way down to the characters. But again this isn't the case, Bandai has to work with what they got, and even Bandai wanted to hire Toei to do a new DB Series, Toei would have to agree to it first.

There has literally been ample studies and full on admission to the practice and business model in Japan.

https://www.amazon.com/Television-Globa ... 1929280599

The transformation of sponsorship and marketing dynamics, for example, from the top-down toy company sponsorship of robot TV anime in the early 1980s to the present close collaboration among various producers, such as the software, music, and publishing companies, at ALL levels of anime planning and production, represents different versions of the economic models with consequently radical differences in anime form as well. Anime studies tend to homogenize these different modes for instance, relegating TV as having less aesthetic and discursive value within the larger category of anime.

The author literally explains that Toy driven production produces lower quality anime. He is predicting the EXACT thing we are experiencing with current anime and Super in particular as compared to its predecessors. He is describing in detail how the anime economy currently works and collaborates and plans through sponsorship of toy companies like Bandai.

So the real question is what are you talking about?

[SaiyanGod117]

There has literally been ample studies and full on admission to the practice and business model in Japan.

https://www.amazon.com/Television-Globa ... 1929280599

The transformation of sponsorship and marketing dynamics, for example, from the top-down toy company sponsorship of robot TV anime in the early 1980s to the present close collaboration among various producers, such as the software, music, and publishing companies, at ALL levels of anime planning and production, represents different versions of the economic models with consequently radical differences in anime form as well. Anime studies tend to homogenize these different modes for instance, relegating TV as having less aesthetic and discursive value within the larger category of anime.

The author literally explains that Toy driven production produces lower quality anime. He is predicting the EXACT thing we are experiencing with current anime and Super in particular as compared to its predecessors. He is describing in detail how the anime economy currently works and collaborates and plans through sponsorship of toy companies like Bandai.

So the real question is what are you talking about?

Ok this sketchy study didn't help you at all.
The author literally explains that Toy driven production produces lower quality anime.
I already know of this, which is why I inferenced the Bandai and Sunrise relationship, an example of anime which are a victim of this are some Gundam series, Pokémon, Beyblade, Digimon, Precure, and Bakugan. These are anime that are merchandise driven with narratives in the story specifically to promote a toy line, Dragon Ball Super is not in the same category with these anime. Bandai has no control over the Dragon Ball Super anime. As they do not own the TV production side of Dragon Ball, not any of it actually, not DB, not DBZ, not DBGT, not DBZ Kai. Please don't come at me with your conspiracy theories and speculation anymore, and as has been said if there's an arrangement like that Toei is doing it by choice, not by force.

[KBABZ]

Transformers (85 specifically) would be an example of a merchandise-driven show, and that is something less concerned about plot and good storytelling and more about making an episode about a character timed specifically to air the week their toy debuts. This is the franchise that killed off almost all of its cast to replace them with new characters who have toys.

Dragon Ball has never really done that sort of thing, and while I'm sure that SSG and SSB were things that Bandai jumped up in glee over, they obviously weren't introduced for the purpose of making new toys and game characters out of. The aforementioned Pokemon and Digimon kinda do, but even then they're able to find compelling storylines and disguise their advertising a bit better than face-smashingly obvious like Transformers used to (and since Animated even Transformers has gotten over that hump).

[sintzu]

If what you're saying above is correct then the writing peoblems seems to be Toei's fault alone, not Bandai or the other companies. In that case they should either be replaced or be directed by someone who knows how to tell a consistant story.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Bandai and Shueisha aren't on the committee. They aren't involved in the creation process. The committee consists of Fuji TV, Yomiko Advertising Inc. and Toei Animation as has been said. Everything is on them. I think they do make some decisions to please their sponsors(Bandai and others) to a degree, but the decision is still theirs.

And, toy driven anime being lower quality anime is not entirely true. PreCure and Pocket Monsters have been doing great despite being toy and video game driven titles respectively. There's passion and artistic integrity in them. Products can be commercially driven and still be executed well. There are several successful examples of that.

DBS' problems is its planning and management. The producers rushed it. 5 directors in a series that has only 100 episodes is terrible terrible management. I hope there are no more replacements so that the series can reach a state of stability.

[KBABZ]

DBS' problems is its planning and management. The producers rushed it. 5 directors in a series that has only 100 episodes is terrible terrible management. I hope there are no more replacements so that the series can reach a state of stability.

To me that can at least be partially attributed to the brutal nature of anime production, the land of fast turnovers, low pay and okay-to-poor drawing quality that has to get fixed for the Blu-Ray release.

[TheMikado]

Ok this sketchy study didn't help you at all.
The author literally explains that Toy driven production produces lower quality anime.
I already know of this, which is why I inferenced the Bandai and Sunrise relationship, an example of anime which are a victim of this are some Gundam series, Pokémon, Beyblade, Digimon, Precure, and Bakugan. These are anime that are merchandise driven with narratives in the story specifically to promote a toy line, Dragon Ball Super is not in the same category with these anime. Bandai has no control over the Dragon Ball Super anime. As they do not own the TV production side of Dragon Ball, not any of it actually, not DB, not DBZ, not DBGT, not DBZ Kai. Please don't come at me with your conspiracy theories and speculation anymore, and as has been said if there's an arrangement like that Toei is doing it by choice, not by force.

You're welcome to post your own links with information. There's no conspiracy theory here, Bandai is the sponsor. It's a very well documented business model in Japan, similar to investor.

Bandai and Shueisha aren't on the committee. They aren't involved in the creation process. The committee consists of Fuji TV, Yomiko Advertising Inc. and Toei Animation as has been said. Everything is on them. I think they do make some decisions to please their sponsors(Bandai and others) to a degree, but the decision is still theirs.

And, toy driven anime being lower quality anime is not entirely true. PreCure and Pocket Monsters have been doing great despite being toy and video game driven titles respectively. There's passion and artistic integrity in them. Products can be commercially driven and still be executed well. There are several successful examples of that.

DBS' problems is its planning and management. The producers rushed it. 5 directors in a series that has only 100 episodes is terrible terrible management. I hope there are no more replacements so that the series can reach a state of stability.

I've been pretty clear on what Bandai's role is. They act as a sponsor, as I said this is more akin to an investor. No they are not going to sit in on creative production meetings on in their committees, but the idea that they have no input or stake in the creative process is ludicrous and naive. Super exists because Bandai sponsors it. The role of sponsorship is the same as it is for investment, they want their interests to be visible and expect a return on their sponsorship. Bandai is NOT writing the scripts or designing the characters, HOWEVER when characters randomly are given new forms such as SSB X KK or SS Rage or Kale's Ultra SSJ form without good narrative explanation or plot development who do you think that is benefiting? Yes an anime can be of decent quality despite being a sponsored work, as I believe the director or Pre-cure was commended on his ability to produce BOTH a good quality anime and adhere to the interests of his investors. This is not a common, skill, and certainly one that will be even less prevalent when your have awful pre-production and 5 directors in 2 years.

If what you're saying above is correct then the writing peoblems seems to be Toei's fault alone, not Bandai or the other companies. In that case they should either be replaced or be directed by someone who knows how to tell a consistant story.

Toei completely owns the writing aspect as they farm it to freelance writers which seems to be the way the industry works.
I want to make sure I'm clear when I say this. Toei writes, produces, and directs separate of Bandai, HOWEVER Bandai's interest play a major, if not primary role in Super's content and production. Super, unlike previous entries into the franchise, is a toy commercial first and foremost. As I stated before, this is different from prior entries where the anime was the product itself. It was an attempt to capitalize off of the popularity of the Dragonball manga with the production of an anime. Thus, it had to be compelling, well written, animated, the quality had to be there because the anime itself was the product.

[sintzu]

Bandai's interest play a major, if not primary role in Super's content and production.

Super, unlike previous entries into the franchise, is a toy commercial first and foremost. As I stated before, this is different from prior entries where the anime was the product itself.

I knew they had a role in the series' overall direction (as if Kale isn't enough to give that away ) but I wasn't sure about the writing. It seems like the writers just don't know what they're doing or have too much to do so they can't double check things.

This seems to be what's hurting it most and will probably continue to do so in the future. Another thing is that when the original was made, Toei didn't have the amount of projects they have now so even if it was based on a manga like before I think it still would've had problems.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

I've been pretty clear on what Bandai's role is. They act as a sponsor, as I said this is more akin to an investor. No they are not going to sit in on creative production meetings on in their committees, but the idea that they have no input or stake in the creative process is ludicrous and naive. Super exists because Bandai sponsors it. The role of sponsorship is the same as it is for investment, they want their interests to be visible and expect a return on their sponsorship. Bandai is NOT writing the scripts or designing the characters, HOWEVER when characters randomly are given new forms such as SSB X KK or SS Rage or Kale's Ultra SSJ form without good narrative explanation or plot development who do you think that is benefiting? Yes an anime can be of decent quality despite being a sponsored work, as I believe the director or Pre-cure was commended on his ability to produce BOTH a good quality anime and adhere to the interests of his investors. This is not a common, skill, and certainly one that will be even less prevalent when your have awful pre-production and 5 directors in 2 years.

If Bandai had a role in the creative process, they would be on the committee. They are not. Here's DBS production and planning credits:

制作Production

Fuji TV

Yomiko Advertising, Inc.

Toei Animation

企画Planning

Seino Masato(Fuji TV)

Watanabe Kazuya(Yomiko Advertising, Inc.)

Morishita Kouzou(Toei Animation)

Fuji, Yomiko and Toei are funding the series. They are also planning the series. The producers currently working are also from the three companies. No Bandai producer is credited. Everything points to what I've said. All decisions are made by the three committee members. Bandai gets no say and unless there's some evidence which I'm not aware of, I'm not buying the involvement of Bandai.

The marketability aspects like female Broli and whatever could be done to benefit the sponsors(Bandai and others), yes. But, the decision whether to do or not is still the choice of the committee. Bandai can't force them. Again, there's no evidence that says so. I'm just going by what we know looking at the credits and facts present to us. Anything about Bandai and Shueisha involvement are nothing more than assumptions.

DBS exists because Toei Animation want their second most popular property to exist. Fuji TV wants their 9am time slot to air Dragon Ball. Also, airing Dragon Ball and One Piece one after another is super beneficial to them. Bandai didn't come up with the idea of the show. They will benefit from merch sales and sponsorship deals or whatever, but they are at the mercy of the production committee.

[SaiyanGod117]

You're welcome to post your own links with information. There's no conspiracy theory here, Bandai is the sponsor.

There's nothing to post, because this is just the way things are it would be like if Toei did a distribution agreement with Universal they only would be allowed to distribute. No more, no less.

[TheMikado]

You're welcome to post your own links with information. There's no conspiracy theory here, Bandai is the sponsor.

There's nothing to post, because this is just the way things are it would be like if Toei did a distribution agreement with Universal they only would be allowed to distribute. No more, no less.

How is a distribution agreement remotely the same thing as a sponsor agreement. What exactly do you think sponsorship entails?? I absolutely cannot comment on Bandai and Toeis sponsorship agreement but there is one regardless of whether you want to believe it or not.

Again what exactly do you think sponsorship means? Bandai just gives Toei money in exchange for... nothing?

Bandai is a business not a charity.

[SaiyanGod117]

You're welcome to post your own links with information. There's no conspiracy theory here, Bandai is the sponsor.

There's nothing to post, because this is just the way things are it would be like if Toei did a distribution agreement with Universal they only would be allowed to distribute. No more, no less.

How is a distribution agreement remotely the same thing as a sponsor agreement. What exactly do you think sponsorship entails?? I absolutely cannot comment on Bandai and Toeis sponsorship agreement but there is one regardless of whether you want to believe it or not.

Again what exactly do you think sponsorship means? Bandai just gives Toei money in exchange for... nothing?

Bandai is a business not a charity.

Because a distributor would make a product or service (viewable/purchasable) for an audience that otherwise wouldn't of had that opportunity in the first place. Even people with a rudimentary understanding of this industry know that, and I think you have your facts skewed, Bandai doesn't fund Dragon Ball Super, the merchandise sales do from Bandai to numerous other thrid party licensers or First party ( Toei).

[TheMikado]

I've been pretty clear on what Bandai's role is. They act as a sponsor, as I said this is more akin to an investor. No they are not going to sit in on creative production meetings on in their committees, but the idea that they have no input or stake in the creative process is ludicrous and naive. Super exists because Bandai sponsors it. The role of sponsorship is the same as it is for investment, they want their interests to be visible and expect a return on their sponsorship. Bandai is NOT writing the scripts or designing the characters, HOWEVER when characters randomly are given new forms such as SSB X KK or SS Rage or Kale's Ultra SSJ form without good narrative explanation or plot development who do you think that is benefiting? Yes an anime can be of decent quality despite being a sponsored work, as I believe the director or Pre-cure was commended on his ability to produce BOTH a good quality anime and adhere to the interests of his investors. This is not a common, skill, and certainly one that will be even less prevalent when your have awful pre-production and 5 directors in 2 years.

If Bandai had a role in the creative process, they would be on the committee. They are not. Here's DBS production and planning credits:

制作Production

Fuji TV

Yomiko Advertising, Inc.

Toei Animation

企画Planning

Seino Masato(Fuji TV)

Watanabe Kazuya(Yomiko Advertising, Inc.)

Morishita Kouzou(Toei Animation)

Fuji, Yomiko and Toei are funding the series. They are also planning the series. The producers currently working are also from the three companies. No Bandai producer is credited. Everything points to what I've said. All decisions are made by the three committee members. Bandai gets no say and unless there's some evidence which I'm not aware of, I'm not buying the involvement of Bandai.

The marketability aspects like female Broli and whatever could be done to benefit the sponsors(Bandai and others), yes. But, the decision whether to do or not is still the choice of the committee. Bandai can't force them. Again, there's no evidence that says so. I'm just going by what we know looking at the credits and facts present to us. Anything about Bandai and Shueisha involvement are nothing more than assumptions.

DBS exists because Toei Animation want their second most popular property to exist. Fuji TV wants their 9am time slot to air Dragon Ball. Also, airing Dragon Ball and One Piece one after another is super beneficial to them. Bandai didn't come up with the idea of the show. They will benefit from merch sales and sponsorship deals or whatever, but they are at the mercy of the production committee.

There's nothing to post, because this is just the way things are it would be like if Toei did a distribution agreement with Universal they only would be allowed to distribute. No more, no less.

How is a distribution agreement remotely the same thing as a sponsor agreement. What exactly do you think sponsorship entails?? I absolutely cannot comment on Bandai and Toeis sponsorship agreement but there is one regardless of whether you want to believe it or not.

Again what exactly do you think sponsorship means? Bandai just gives Toei money in exchange for... nothing?

Bandai is a business not a charity.

Because a distributor would make a product or service (viewable/purchasable) for an audience that otherwise wouldn't of had that opportunity in the first place. Even people with a rudimentary understanding of this industry know that, and I think you have your facts skewed, Bandai doesn't fund Dragon Ball Super, the merchandise sales do from Bandai to numerous other thrid party licensers or First party ( Toei).

Ok, I think there is a gross failure of understanding here so I will map this out clearly:

Pre-production

During this stage three things are determined. What they are making, how to distribute, and how to fund it:

I'm going to make this VERY CLEAR. BANDAI DOES NOT AND WILL NOT SIT ON ANY CREATIVE COMMITTEE. They are the BANK. THEY ARE THE SPONSOR. THEY ARE LIKE INVESTORS. Your investors do not sit on the day to day meetings or creative direction meetings. THEY ALSO DO NOT GET THEIR NAMES IN THE CREDITS OF THE PRODUCT.

AGAIN BANDAI IS A SPONSOR!!!

Not once did I say they dictate the day to day operations, HOWEVER if they wanted a new form or a Broly look-a-like you better believe they would get it.

At this stage we have no idea who approached who on the topic, especially with Bandai's involvement as since the inception of the original BoG movie. Even superceding Yomiko Advertisings involvement.
What we do know is the sponsor "bank" has been there from the very beginning in pre-production. Fuji Tv has been the distribution partner, and Toei obviously is the creative team.

I do not understand what you guys are trying to prove. That Bandai do not sit on the creative committee? Of course not. Neither would any investor. By again as the "Bank" behind the project they expect certain things for their sponsorship. Bandai is not at the mercy of anyone. They could pull their funding tomorrow if they wanted. Whether Super would be pulling enough money on its own to continue would be something else entirely. I imagine it would but on a less frequent schedule or lower production.


Again what exactly are you trying to say so I'm clear.

Are you saying Bandai has no influence over the creative process or direction despite being a sponsor?

[Saikyo no Senshi]

You got that wrong. Bandai isn't funding the series. They aren't the bank you are saying. Toei, Fuji and Yomiko are. Inform yourself a little about the production committee for a better understanding.

Bandai get credited when they are involved. Take Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch for example. The committee consists of :

制作Production
Bandai Co., Ltd.
Bandai Visual
Code Geass Production Parnters
Hakuhodo DY Media Partners
Mainichi Broadcasting System
Bandai Namco Games
Sunrise

See Bandai's name. When that happens, they have a say on the production matters.

And, in DBS they aren't, as I already showed the credits. We have an idea of who approached who. Toei and Fuji came up with it cause they own the property. They approached Toriyama and he agreed. That's it. Bandai and other sponsors are at the mercy of the people who own the property. That's what I'm trying to say. Hope, it's clear. The decision making is still in the hands of the committee.

EDIT: Oh, and both the recent Dragon Ball movies had Bandai on the committee. They got credited. Further confirmation that they aren't in the committee of DBS cause if they were, they would've been credited.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

DB/Z: Good concepts, great characters. Mostly Good--->Great execution. Story, characters first. Merch second.

DB Super: Good concepts, great characters. Mostly Bad--->Terrible execution. Merch first. Story, characters second.

Overall presentation (visual appeal, attention to detail, Sound design,etc.) between the two is the biggest difference maker in accepting flaws between the two, imo.

[Shinda Forever]

It will depend of what will happen in this tournament.