Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Doing my sorta monthly check-in. Is there anything concrete that I missed? How strong is everyone supposed to be these days?

I'm not sure how much there has been that's concrete. The writer of the show said he thinks Gohan and Android 17 are equal then below them is Frost and below him is Piccolo but he said that's just his opinion.

He then ranked the top fighters as

Goku
Vegeta
Frieza
Gohan
Android 17

So if Golden Frieza is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku then I suppose Gohan and Android 17 would be below.

So about the stamina issues regarding Super Saiyan Blue, should we take seriously in the show or not?

Yeah it should be taken seriously because they've said it twice now and it's also an issue in the manga. However the anime didn't go so overboard with the stamina issue and I honestly can't recall a time in the anime where it's stamina has actually been an issue.

Weren't both Goku and Vegeta in Super Saiyan Blue from when they started fighting Black and Zamasu, all the way throughout them fighting Merged Zamasu?

If anything they were actually stronger towards the end as well.

The fact that it's just his opinion as a writer of the show is a bit disheartening.
As a writer he's going to write them that way, but if another writer differs in opinion then what?

There shouldn't be opinions on topics like these. There should be a well established character hierarchy on their side at least.

[Whatever]

Doing my sorta monthly check-in. Is there anything concrete that I missed? How strong is everyone supposed to be these days?

I'm not sure how much there has been that's concrete. The writer of the show said he thinks Gohan and Android 17 are equal then below them is Frost and below him is Piccolo but he said that's just his opinion.

He then ranked the top fighters as

Goku
Vegeta
Frieza
Gohan
Android 17

So if Golden Frieza is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku then I suppose Gohan and Android 17 would be below.

So about the stamina issues regarding Super Saiyan Blue, should we take seriously in the show or not?

Yeah it should be taken seriously because they've said it twice now and it's also an issue in the manga. However the anime didn't go so overboard with the stamina issue and I honestly can't recall a time in the anime where it's stamina has actually been an issue.

Weren't both Goku and Vegeta in Super Saiyan Blue from when they started fighting Black and Zamasu, all the way throughout them fighting Merged Zamasu?

If anything they were actually stronger towards the end as well.

The fact that it's just his opinion as a writer of the show is a bit disheartening.
As a writer he's going to write them that way, but if another writer differs in opinion then what?

There shouldn't be opinions on topics like these. There should be a well established character hierarchy on their side at least.

Then we would have the powerscaling we have now.
The writers have different opinions on how strong each character is so their strength varies,we should just accept that and move on which is the most logical thing to do instead of making up 2 base theories or any theories like that.
When even the writer says they are not sure how strong a character is then i don't see how it gets any clearer than that.

[Shlugo]

I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to?

Option A is definietly closest to truth. Though of course, all of them rank Rose way to high - the form only looks strong because Black Base power is so ridiculous. If the form itself was on par with Blue, then Black would be hundreds of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta upon attaining it.

I saw it as this: Base Goku = Base Gohan < Basil = Lavender = Bergamo < SS1 Goku = SS1 Gohan << Good Buu << SSB Goku < SSB KK Goku

Basil, Lavender and Bergamo fighting together with perfect teamwork and being unable to be easily sensed could at most put Goku in the defensive - they didn't even do any significant damage to him. No way they are individual stronger than Base Goku.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to?

Option A is definietly closest to truth. Though of course, all of them rank Rose way to high - the form only looks strong because Black Base power is so ridiculous. If the form itself was on par with Blue, then Black would be hundreds of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta upon attaining it.

SSRose was explained to basically be SSBlue, yeah, so there power should be equal. I did not interpret that as Black's Base power, but, rather, Black unlocking the SSGod power Goku had inside himself. His whole journey was to achieve the full power of Goku's body. He was very restricted fighting Trunks before he came back from the future, then less restricted against SS2 Goku. But when Vegeta was pummeling him as an SSBlue, Goku Black was able to handle it. Toriyama had intended for SSRose to be Black's version of SSBlue, and, you are right, if Black's Base power were that strong then he would be too overwhelming for them. That's why I personally believe he was drawing on the SSGod power that Goku had inside himself.

That's just my interpretation though.

I saw it as this: Base Goku = Base Gohan < Basil = Lavender = Bergamo < SS1 Goku = SS1 Gohan << Good Buu << SSB Goku < SSB KK Goku

Basil, Lavender and Bergamo fighting together with perfect teamwork and being unable to be easily sensed could at most put Goku in the defensive - they didn't even do any significant damage to him. No way they are individual stronger than Base Goku.

Yeah, but Goku had to use SS1 in the Tournament of Power to overwhelm them fully. Then he and Vegeta accessed SSBlue power equal to a SS3 during the tag-team Final Kamehameha.

Goku hasn't accessed more power than SS3 during the tournament yet, which is why I don't think Option A is right. He acknowledged that he would release a little more power in the match with SSBerserker Kale. He uses SSBlue instead of SS3 because of the huge stamina drain in SS3, even more so than SSBlue. Kale had to use SSBerserker against the four Pride Troopers because SSBerserker Controlled was not strong enough. Its power is only a little more than Caulifla's SS2 though because of their beams -- SS2 Caulifla's wrapped around Kale's, meaning it was weaker by a bit.

We'll see more of Kale and Caulifla though, and be able to determine better where SSBerserker stands.

[RandomGuy96]

Doing my sorta monthly check-in. Is there anything concrete that I missed? How strong is everyone supposed to be these days?

I'm not sure how much there has been that's concrete. The writer of the show said he thinks Gohan and Android 17 are equal then below them is Frost and below him is Piccolo but he said that's just his opinion.

He then ranked the top fighters as

Goku
Vegeta
Frieza
Gohan
Android 17

So if Golden Frieza is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku then I suppose Gohan and Android 17 would be below.

Link to this interview? Also where is Buu or did the writer just not bother to list him because he's not in the tournament?

[LowRyder2005]

I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to?

Option A is definietly closest to truth. Though of course, all of them rank Rose way to high - the form only looks strong because Black Base power is so ridiculous. If the form itself was on par with Blue, then Black would be hundreds of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta upon attaining it.

I saw it as this: Base Goku = Base Gohan < Basil = Lavender = Bergamo < SS1 Goku = SS1 Gohan << Good Buu << SSB Goku < SSB KK Goku

Basil, Lavender and Bergamo fighting together with perfect teamwork and being unable to be easily sensed could at most put Goku in the defensive - they didn't even do any significant damage to him. No way they are individual stronger than Base Goku.

Well, Lavenda's punch to the guts is enough to make base Vegeta groan in pain. It's abundantly clear that, even if they're may not "superior" in the strictest sense, they'd at least be portrayed as close enough to physically hurt the base Saiyans. Actually, if you follow religiously some list in which Vegeta is still substantially stronger than Goku, the wolves being above him may come off as a pretty natural consequence.

Link to this interview? Also where is Buu or did the writer just not bother to list him because he's not in the tournament?

All of Toshio's answers are on Twitter, although links may be difficult to find. Regarding Buu, he might either be below #17 or excluded (depends on how the person posed the question and/or if the question was asked after the reveal Buu was not on the team). Power-scaling does suggest #17 may have just surpassed Good Buu's relative tier even when taking his feats with a grain of salt, so there might be that.

Among the things worth of notice: Gohan's mini-arc throughout the episodes has also basically confirmed the "stronger-than-Gotenks" base has been either forgotten or retconned out of existence. In the very last episode, #18 and the Trio de Danger have also apparently shown strength comparable or surpassing base Goku's (either fueling the fans' confusion or making the majority stop relying on streamlined, "one-super-strong-base" theories).

[Vegeta123]

I wanted to suggest a couple ideas for the Super Saiyan levels as of now (Credit to YouTuber Ichigo Kurosaki). Which one do you guys subscribe to?

Option A is definietly closest to truth. Though of course, all of them rank Rose way to high - the form only looks strong because Black Base power is so ridiculous. If the form itself was on par with Blue, then Black would be hundreds of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta upon attaining it.

I saw it as this: Base Goku = Base Gohan < Basil = Lavender = Bergamo < SS1 Goku = SS1 Gohan << Good Buu << SSB Goku < SSB KK Goku

Basil, Lavender and Bergamo fighting together with perfect teamwork and being unable to be easily sensed could at most put Goku in the defensive - they didn't even do any significant damage to him. No way they are individual stronger than Base Goku.

Lavenda's punch to the guts is enough to make base Vegeta groan in pain. It's abundantly clear that, even if they're may not "superior" in the strictest sense, they'd at least be portrayed as close enough to physically hurt the base Saiyans.

fuck outta here with that BS trying to diminish Vegeta

The writers are just trying to make it interesting for the audience. Those wolves were scrubs that got wasted away in a few minutes. A few minutes real time is all it took to wipe out their whole universe. If you even think that those 3 wolves pose any challenge you're stupider than your username sounds.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, I've said it before and I'll say it again, power level differences have been deemphasized for the regular battles in order to preserve the spirit of intense martial arts and strategic skill for this tournament, even if power-scaling precedence might've done otherwise in past material.

At this current point, unless we see specific transformations or clear power-ups, it's easier to just assume that everyone is being treated as at a relatively even level, without any power-scaling being involved. Pure fighting, no power levels.

Until we get to upper-tier fights between very clearly strong characters, it's easiest to go with the plausible writing standpoint that the fights aren't being meticulously planned out with power levels in mind and instead on what, in the writers' minds, would be the best moves and skills to be shown off to pressure our heroes. I know I'll probably get some of the following, so I'll save you guys the trouble and list it all off myself:

"this is the strength discussion thread, if we're not gonna talk about power, why bother?"
"the franchise has ALWAYS been built on power levels, ditching them now is just stupid and inconsistent"
"this CLEARLY proves [X] and disproves [Y]!"
"we don't do Doylist reasoning here, get out"

[ChiefWamsutta]

Doing my sorta monthly check-in. Is there anything concrete that I missed? How strong is everyone supposed to be these days?

I'm not sure how much there has been that's concrete. The writer of the show said he thinks Gohan and Android 17 are equal then below them is Frost and below him is Piccolo but he said that's just his opinion.

He then ranked the top fighters as

Goku
Vegeta
Frieza
Gohan
Android 17

So if Golden Frieza is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku then I suppose Gohan and Android 17 would be below.

Link to this interview? Also where is Buu or did the writer just not bother to list him because he's not in the tournament?

@Bullza, I recall Toshio Yoshitaka being the script writer who said this on Twitter. Gohan = Android #17 > Frost > Piccolo does make sense. Based on that though, I figure these four are below god tier.

Ultimate Gohan and Android #17 are probably close to Buuhan now, since Toshio believes the two are equal and Ultimate Gohan was at Super Buu level and then he powered up. Frost is probably near SS3 Goku. Piccolo is between SS2 and SS3 Goku, as seen that he is a bit stronger than SS2 Gohan.

I don't recall Toshio Yoshitaka mentioning the ranking of the top five fighters. I would love to see the tweet though.

Lavenda's punch to the guts is enough to make base Vegeta groan in pain. It's abundantly clear that, even if they're may not "superior" in the strictest sense, they'd at least be portrayed as close enough to physically hurt the base Saiyans.

fuck outta here with that BS trying to diminish Vegeta

The writers are just trying to make it interesting for the audience. Those wolves were scrubs that got wasted away in a few minutes. A few minutes real time is all it took to wipe out their whole universe. If you even think that those 3 wolves pose any challenge you're stupider than your username sounds.

Okay, come on. That's not at all appropriate to respond in that way, dude.

At this current point, unless we see specific transformations or clear power-ups, it's easier to just assume that everyone is being treated as at a relatively even level, without any power-scaling being involved. Pure fighting, no power levels.

Until we get to upper-tier fights between very clearly strong characters, it's easiest to go with the plausible writing standpoint that the fights aren't being meticulously planned out with power levels

I totally agree with you. I really have no interest in power scaling anyone that hasn't had character development/emphasis put upon them. The Trio De Dangers were eliminated easily, and that is the intent of the writing staff. Clearly, that means they were weak.

The only thing that has bugged me is the scaling of SSBerserker Kale, Android #17, and Ultimate Gohan because they all faced SSBlue Goku. However, I have kinda come to the conclusion that these guys are probably around SS3 Goku or greater. I would bet they are in the same tier because Goku transformed to SSBlue for each of them and he hasn't been using SS3. Goku said that he would release a little bit more power.

To be honest, he probably has not been going all out in any fights since Merged Zamasu. He blipped to 100% against Ultimate Gohan out of respect, but he never needed to.

[Kaboom]

fuck outta here with that BS trying to diminish Vegeta
The writers are just trying to make it interesting for the audience. Those wolves were scrubs that got wasted away in a few minutes. A few minutes real time is all it took to wipe out their whole universe. If you even think that those 3 wolves pose any challenge you're stupider than your username sounds.

Vegeta123, I've gotten multiple reports just today about this confrontational attitude of yours, in both this thread and others. If all you're intent on doing when posting is antagonizing people, then maybe it'd be better to not post at all. Otherwise, if you continue like this, you probably won't have a choice before long.

[Vegeta123]

fuck outta here with that BS trying to diminish Vegeta
The writers are just trying to make it interesting for the audience. Those wolves were scrubs that got wasted away in a few minutes. A few minutes real time is all it took to wipe out their whole universe. If you even think that those 3 wolves pose any challenge you're stupider than your username sounds.

Vegeta123, I've gotten multiple reports just today about this confrontational attitude of yours, in both this thread and others. If all you're intent on doing when posting is antagonizing people, then maybe it'd be better to not post at all. Otherwise, if you continue like this, you probably won't have a choice before long.

Ok man. I'll stop.

[Bullza]

https://mobile.twitter.com/toshio916/st ... 3803228160

"The rank in the team is Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Gohan, No. 17 ... after that it is difficult.
My personal point of view"

Additionally I just came across this tweet he made too, I think it's in relation to Kale stomping Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

https://mobile.twitter.com/toshio916/st ... 3453291521

"Goku may not full strength
I want to believe"

[TheMikado]

https://mobile.twitter.com/toshio916/st ... 3803228160

"The rank in the team is Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Gohan, No. 17 ... after that it is difficult.
My personal point of view"

Additionally I just came across this tweet he made too, I think it's in relation to Kale stomping Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

https://mobile.twitter.com/toshio916/st ... 3453291521

"Goku may not full strength
I want to believe"

Hahaha that "I want to believe" sounds like something one of us would write rather than a writer of the show.

[Marlowe89]

Until we get to upper-tier fights between very clearly strong characters, it's easiest to go with the plausible writing standpoint that the fights aren't being meticulously planned out with power levels in mind and instead on what, in the writers' minds, would be the best moves and skills to be shown off to pressure our heroes.

The fights so far, especially in the tournament, are being planned out with power levels in mind to some degree though. Strategy and skill certainly has increased importance in this specific subseries compared to something like DBZ, but the idea that they've entirely superseded the strength of these characters is completely untrue when you look at everything the writers have focused on up to this point.

We don't have to look any further than every episode in the battle royale -- even on a surface level interpretation --
to reach this conclusion. Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan to make quick work of Universe 9 when they were being pressured in base was clearly meant to emphasize the gap in strength between those forms. Strength was also emphasized with Android 18's ability to lift Tupper as well as her forcing Shosa to feign unconsciousness, Cabba's casual elimination of two random schmucks, Caulifla needing Super Saiyan to overpower certain characters, the list really goes on and on. So many instances of power have been constantly mentioned throughout the tournament, which the writers definitely wouldn't convey if it didn't play a crucial role of some kind.

We don't need to assume such a pivotal aspect of DBS is suddenly getting thrown to the wayside when the exact opposite is being implied on an almost consistent basis. If it destroys certain notions people had of the power-scaling then so be it.

[ChiefWamsutta]

https://mobile.twitter.com/toshio916/st ... 3803228160

"The rank in the team is Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Gohan, No. 17 ... after that it is difficult.
My personal point of view"

Additionally I just came across this tweet he made too, I think it's in relation to Kale stomping Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

https://mobile.twitter.com/toshio916/st ... 3453291521

"Goku may not full strength
I want to believe"

Hmmmmm, in the first tweet there is a reply right below that where he says that the ranking is now: Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Android 17, Gohan, etc. He says because 17 trained for much longer he should be stronger than Gohan.

In the second tweet, I think that makes sense. Ultimate Gohan, Android 17, and SSBerserker Kale are probably between SS3 Goku (DBZ) and SSGod Goku (BoG).

[Dragonballgod19]

So I guess vegeta really is stronger than golden Freeza

[RandomGuy96]

I'm not sure how much there has been that's concrete. The writer of the show said he thinks Gohan and Android 17 are equal then below them is Frost and below him is Piccolo but he said that's just his opinion.

He then ranked the top fighters as

Goku
Vegeta
Frieza
Gohan
Android 17

So if Golden Frieza is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku then I suppose Gohan and Android 17 would be below.

Link to this interview? Also where is Buu or did the writer just not bother to list him because he's not in the tournament?

@Bullza, I recall Toshio Yoshitaka being the script writer who said this on Twitter. Gohan = Android #17 > Frost > Piccolo does make sense. Based on that though, I figure these four are below god tier.

Ultimate Gohan and Android #17 are probably close to Buuhan now, since Toshio believes the two are equal and Ultimate Gohan was at Super Buu level and then he powered up. Frost is probably near SS3 Goku. Piccolo is between SS2 and SS3 Goku, as seen that he is a bit stronger than SS2 Gohan.

I don't recall Toshio Yoshitaka mentioning the ranking of the top five fighters. I would love to see the tweet though.

Wait, where are you getting the bolded from? How much stronger is Gohan now than he was in the Buu arc?

All of Toshio's answers are on Twitter, although links may be difficult to find. Regarding Buu, he might either be below #17 or excluded (depends on how the person posed the question and/or if the question was asked after the reveal Buu was not on the team). Power-scaling does suggest #17 may have just surpassed Good Buu's relative tier even when taking his feats with a grain of salt, so there might be that.

Among the things worth of notice: Gohan's mini-arc throughout the episodes has also basically confirmed the "stronger-than-Gotenks" base has been either forgotten or retconned out of existence. In the very last episode, #18 and the Trio de Danger have also apparently shown strength comparable or surpassing base Goku's (either fueling the fans' confusion or making the majority stop relying on streamlined, "one-super-strong-base" theories).

It's dated July 19, so Buu wasn't factored in to any comparison since he wasn't on the team at that point.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Ultimate Gohan and Android #17 are probably close to Buuhan now, since Toshio believes the two are equal and Ultimate Gohan was at Super Buu level and then he powered up.

Wait, where are you getting the bolded from? How much stronger is Gohan now than he was in the Buu arc?

Oh, I am sorry. So in Ep. 88 we see that Gohan regains Ultimate (or, rather it was called "the power he used against Buu"). This would put Ultimate Gohan back at Super Buu level. Since he powered-up through training. As of Ep. 90, I assumed he would be at Buuhan's level. That was my own personal guess. Toshio Yoshitaka said he believed Android 17 was equal to Gohan, so I estimated he would be at the same level of Buuhan.

[Bullza]

Hmmmmm, in the first tweet there is a reply right below that where he says that the ranking is now: Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Android 17, Gohan, etc. He says because 17 trained for much longer he should be stronger than Gohan.

I don't see the tweet you're referring to. The tweet I posted was from July 20th so I don't know why he would have changed his mind since then.

He made another Tweet where he said they were equal before this. They're probably on par with each other though again only in his opinion.

Wait, where are you getting the bolded from? How much stronger is Gohan now than he was in the Buu arc?

It's hard to say. Before he became Ultimate again they referred to Gohan regaining his "original" power. So I'd have assumed when he first transformed into it he would have been as strong as he was in the Buu Arc.

But then at the end of the episode Piccolo did say say he believed he could get stronger but that was like a day before the Tournament? He shouldn't be massively more powerful but then he did land some hits on Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

Was he holding back against Gohan? Debatable. He punched Golden Frieza and knocked him out. He punched Gohan and he was still fighting back. According to Toshio Golden Frieza is stronger than Gohan though.

So yeah maybe he was holding back.

[Marlowe89]

Hmmmmm, in the first tweet there is a reply right below that where he says that the ranking is now: Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Android 17, Gohan, etc. He says because 17 trained for much longer he should be stronger than Gohan.

Nah, that was just some random 17 fan replying to his tweet. These people always tend to bug the hell out of him with power-scaling questions and then start questioning his opinions when he says something they're not totally on board with.

We don't really know how strong Gohan and 17 are supposed to be at this point, and you can also blame the anime's (at times) annoyingly vague writing for that.