Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

If this is real it will basically confirm exactly what I've been saying from the beginning.

There is a non SSJ God form between Blue and SSJ3.
At least there should be.

The anime just messed up. There is no second base but there ALWAYS was supposed to be that level/form due to the way the narrative was written.

Thankfully the manga escaped this completely by or having RoF in detail. Goku could have fought Frieza as a SSG for all we know in that continuity.

[Bullza]

Explain then why Goku compared SSJ2 Future Trunks to SSJ2 Kid Gohan if the former's base fucking murders the latter?

Doesn't make sense for them to have strong base forms in the manga.

Well all Goku said was that he was even stronger than what Gohan was at back then. That was before he quadrupled his power to match Super Saiyan 3 Goku as well.

I don't know is how weaker they could be when even Frost in his First Form was fast enough that people like Krillin and Tien couldn't see him move and Base Goku was sort of implied to be above Frost in his Third Form.

If his Base form wasn't super strong then all the events of Resurrection F played out entirely differently. They likely didn't intend for it to be different because they skipped over those events and naturally readers are going to have the Resurrection F story in mind as what happened.

[Marlowe89]

Well all Goku said was that he was even stronger than what Gohan was at back then. That was before he quadrupled his power to match Super Saiyan 3 Goku as well.

I think what ZombieVito meant was that if Goku was that strong in the manga and Trunks was matching/surpassing him in equivalent forms, you'd obviously then have a situation where base Trunks would be wiping the floor with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan as well (especially since Trunks' standard SS2 was slightly stronger than Goku's) yet that doesn't make much sense at all because the comparison to Gohan wasn't made until Trunks went Super Saiyan 2.

So the strongest authorial implication is Trunks wasn't surpassing Super Saiyan 2 kid Gohan until going Super Saiyan 2 himself, thus the proposition of base Goku surpassing Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks in the manga is an incredibly dubious one at best. You'd practically have to assume Gotenks was massively nerfed if you subscribe to the idea.

[Loputousu]

If this is real it will basically confirm exactly what I've been saying from the beginning.

There is a non SSJ God form between Blue and SSJ3.
At least there should be.

The anime just messed up. There is no second base but there ALWAYS was supposed to be that level/form due to the way the narrative was written.

Thankfully the manga escaped this completely by or having RoF in detail. Goku could have fought Frieza as a SSG for all we know in that continuity.

Yeah, if SSG in ep 104 is true it would simply mean that the writers are trying to cover up their mistakes (the same way as Toyotaro did in the manga, but he did it much earlier, and without RoF).

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

The only worse scenario is if anime Vegeta gets it too despite the fact we 100% know for a fact the anime continuity DOESN'T have him go through with the ritual.

Nothing implies he couldn't have performed the ritual between F and now, or that he couldn't have accessed Super Saiyan God through additional training just like he did Super Saiyan Blue.

That said, I really, really hope we see Super Saiyan God one last time if a new form is to be introduced soon. It needs a proper send-off.

[Bullza]

comparison to Gohan wasn't made until Trunks went Super Saiyan 2.

But they started off as Super Saiyan 2 from the beginning. There wasn't a position where they started fighting in Base form, then Super Saiyan, then Super Saiyan 2 and only then did he make the comparison to Gohan.

They fought, that was when Trunks used his power and he said he was stronger than Gohan, that was it.

[Marlowe89]

But they started off as Super Saiyan 2 from the beginning. There wasn't a position where they started fighting in Base form, then Super Saiyan, then Super Saiyan 2 and only then did he make the comparison to Gohan.

They fought, that was when Trunks used his power and he said he was stronger than Gohan, that was it.

I don't see how that would change the principle objection here. They fought for a good three pages in their Super Saiyan 2 forms before Goku commented he was "even" stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan; my point is that the comparison was specifically between SS2 Trunks and SS2 Gohan and was presented to the reader as such.

I feel like your argument is sort of begging the question at this point. Why even use kid Gohan in his strongest form as a means of comparison if Trunks was easily at least several hundred times stronger and could also just stomp him without even transforming? That doesn't sound right at all, especially in authorial terms -- it would be a backhanded compliment at best and outright misleading at worst.

[TAF108]

The idea of Super Saiyajin God returning is odd. I'm very skeptical of that. When did Goku regain the power to use the form? What kind of training did he do to manage that?

Now I know as much as everyone else that Goku did the same thing in the manga, but they treated Super Saiyajin God pretty different in the manga as compared to the anime. In the manga, Super Saiyajin God was a new form that put him on the level of the Gods and put him far above where he was. Through training with Whis, he could call on the power on his own and push it further to become a Super Saiyajin Blue. In the anime, it served the same purpose to lift Goku to new heights, then left him stronger than ever and with the residue of God ki so he could use it for SSJB later.

The only way I could see them bringing it back is for the same reason the manga did. A buffer for SSJB that doesn't drain as much stamina. But then that raises the question, why hasn't he used it for that purpose before? Especially in this tournament setting, where it would be perfect for him to use it since Blue suddenly drains stamina again. (I mean, he's used SSJB at least 3 times already, that can't be good if it really drains stamina.)

I'd like to hope that it's just a error and they really mean Blue, but all things considered I'm curious how Toei goes about explaining this. Maybe it'll be something that doesn't happen intentionally.

[Bullza]

Why even use kid Gohan in his strongest form as a means of comparison if Trunks was easily at least several hundred times stronger and could also just stomp him without even transforming?

Who else is he gonna say? He's stronger than Gotenks? Vegito? Trunks doesn't even know who those people are.

Last time Goku saw Trunks was during the Cell Games when Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was the strongest around. He was also the strongest character that Trunks knew of before he left that timeline and went home.

This is being made a little more over complicated than need be. They fought and he said he was stronger than Gohan back then. Doesn't mean he was only stronger as a Super Saiyan 2, it could just be a general explanation.

If in the manga the events of Resurrection F were the same as the other two versions and Base Goku fought a powered up Frieza then yeah Trunks should be more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in Base form if he's comparable to Goku.

If he and Goku are only around as strong as Base Gohan at the Cell Games then the entire events of Resurrection F were completely different and they wouldn't do that because they'd be expecting readers to think of what happened in Resurrection F to fill in the gap that they skipped over.

[LowRyder2005]

The ROF arc wasn't rehashed for strictly pragmatic reasons and because the bullet points were meant to be shared, but it could be open to debate if "beyond God" Goku squaring off with Freeza qualified as such for them or not. We're not talking about something that makes it impossible to connect the dots otherwise; they had circumvented the issue already the reader was already informed on a need-to-know basis: Freeza came back, they used Blue, Freeza died.

The procedure of bruteforcing ROF's manga looks equally dubious. Using a self-contained manga - meant to adapt another medium, to boot - and devised way before Super's own manga continuity existed, may not really help at all in grasping any of the author's thoughts afterwards -for something which he might've treated ad an entirely different endeavor.
On a level, the relation between the ROF's manga and Super's manga is the same between GT's anicomic (if it sounds too offensive let's say "Yo!"'s manga) and the current manga continuity.

Besides, what's out there to really say "they wouldn't have done that"? After seeing Toyotaro whip out Super Saiyan God against everything the anime had suggested that far, instead of pitting base Goku versus Hit, what exactly would've stopped Toyo in the context of "his" ROF?

[ekrolo2]

I just handwave F in the Super manga by having Goku fight Freeza with both God and Blue.

It's not a perfect solution since the early manga chapters for U6 have implications for a boosted Base form but much like Vegeta having SSG, F is a mystery that you can infer on it's events based on later information and not contradict much.

[TheMikado]

I just handwave F in the Super manga by having Goku fight Freeza with both God and Blue.

It's not a perfect solution since the early manga chapters for U6 have implications for a boosted Base form but much like Vegeta having SSG, F is a mystery that you can infer on it's events based on later information and not contradict much.

This is exactly correct and likely a combination of a happy accident/coincidence and Toyotaros skill and fanboy meticulous writing. The manga isn't perfect but it would be far more sensical in its usage than reintroducing it back into the anime at this point.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm honestly hoping that spoiler might mean something else.

Maybe SSG WILL return.......... as a stepping stone towards something else. For the longest time, the anime has gone out of its way to not use SSG where the manga did, and has kept consistent about that with regards to the earlier arcs, a testament to what the writers CAN keep track of.

Maybe SSG will serve another purpose. After all, the next great power is being teased to us, and it could be that SSG is the key to whatever this new power is. We have 6 pure-hearted Saiyans in the ring right now. A SSG is possible now.

[JazzMazz]

In light of the recent news, how do people think think Dyspo will rank in comparison to the other fighters?

I personally don't like him, but I'd be fine if he had a unique technique that only he could use to counter the time skip, that would be far better than just saying his stupidly strong because his introduction was an extremely lacklustre way to introduce him if he is indeed that powerful.

[Ki Breaker]

In light of the recent news, how do people think think Dyspo will rank in comparison to the other fighters?

Along the ranks of present Vegeta

[JazzMazz]

In light of the recent news, how do people think think Dyspo will rank in comparison to the other fighters?

Along the ranks of present Vegeta

If it requires the efforts of both Goku and Hit to take him out, even if Goku is only SSG, I think we can firmly place him a little bit above Vegeta.

[Marlowe89]

Who else is he gonna say? He's stronger than Gotenks? Vegito? Trunks doesn't even know who those people are.

If Goku was that strong then why not himself? Better yet, why even make a potentially misleading comparison at all? What was the point? It'd be like Cell fighting Majin Buu and saying "You're even stronger than Raditz was!".

I'm not seeing how it's at all different from Goku and Vegeta themselves being said to have surpassed Gohan in their Super Saiyan 2 forms during the Buu Saga; the comparison was intentionally drawn between users of the same form because SS2 is the exact sort of iconic association the reader would make for kid Gohan.

If he and Goku are only around as strong as Base Gohan at the Cell Games then the entire events of Resurrection F were completely different and they wouldn't do that because they'd be expecting readers to think of what happened in Resurrection F to fill in the gap that they skipped over.

That's definitely an over-complication on your part. All they'd really need to do is replace the super strong God base Goku with the actual Super Saiyan God form during the instance of fighting Final Form Frieza. That's it. The basic plot events wouldn't even have to change.

We already know from countless materials that Goku was intended to be no weaker than Super Saiyan God in his base form, so if it was adapting the original plot of Ressurection F then it would have already been completely different than the power-scale established in the manga. Toyotaro obviously isn't going to have his readers think it went down exactly as it did in other mediums when that doesn't even hold true for the other arcs in Super.

[Ki Breaker]

In light of the recent news, how do people think think Dyspo will rank in comparison to the other fighters?

Along the ranks of present Vegeta

If it requires the efforts of both Goku and Hit to take him out, even if Goku is only SSG, I think we can firmly place him a little bit above Vegeta.

That would depend on how much more of a boost SSB is compared to SSG and the fact that dyspo might have a special ability which helps him counter hit better..
Dyspo might be getting help from toppo as well

[AvatarReiko]

This is interesting. Then summary 104 heavily implies that DBZ characters are not lightspeed

[MisteryOne]

This is interesting. Then summary 104 heavily implies that DBZ characters are not lightspeed

So Kid Goku was lightspeed yet Z characters were not? Good job, Toei.