Android 17 stronger than Goku SS3?

[pacz360]

Both 17 and gohan are around the same tier of power who's superior is anyone's guess and we'll need to see by the end of it but both are around blue level that can't be denied
Using toshio statements isn't wise considering in a response to who would win in a fight between golden Frieza and 17 he said he doesn't know

[larzooma]

Both 17 and gohan are around the same tier of power who's superior is anyone's guess and we'll need to see by the end of it but both are around blue level that can't be denied
Using toshio statements isn't wise considering in a response to who would win in a fight between golden Frieza and 17 he said he doesn't know

Honestly all we can say for sure is 17 is powerful enough to force Goku to go beyond SSJ2, which at this point means SSJB. It's entirely possible given what concrete evidence we have, 17 is only around current SSJ3 Goku. I believe he's above SSJ3, but below a SSJB Goku at full power. There's no chance 17 posses a challenge to Golden Frieza at his current level. He's at the very least equal to a fully powered SSJB Goku. Given Frieza's track record it's entirely possible he's even stronger. As of 90, Gohan's at a level high enough to compete with a fully powered SSJB Goku, and they've alluded to Gohan achieving a new level of power in the tournament, which could come for a further transformation along the "Ultimate" line or a power level increase brought on some event.

As of right now the list goes:
1. Goku
2. Golden Frieza
3. Vegeta
4. Gohan
5. 17
6. Piccolo
...18/humans

[Lapislettuce]

Both 17 and gohan are around the same tier of power who's superior is anyone's guess and we'll need to see by the end of it but both are around blue level that can't be denied
Using toshio statements isn't wise considering in a response to who would win in a fight between golden Frieza and 17 he said he doesn't know

Honestly all we can say for sure is 17 is powerful enough to force Goku to go beyond SSJ2, which at this point means SSJB. It's entirely possible given what concrete evidence we have, 17 is only around current SSJ3 Goku. I believe he's above SSJ3, but below a SSJB Goku at full power. There's no chance 17 posses a challenge to Golden Frieza at his current level. He's at the very least equal to a fully powered SSJB Goku. Given Frieza's track record it's entirely possible he's even stronger. As of 90, Gohan's at a level high enough to compete with a fully powered SSJB Goku, and they've alluded to Gohan achieving a new level of power in the tournament, which could come for a further transformation along the "Ultimate" line or a power level increase brought on some event.

As of right now the list goes:
1. Goku
2. Golden Frieza
3. Vegeta
4. Gohan
5. 17
6. Piccolo
...18/humans

So in your opinion someone who forced Goku to go ssb and fought on par with him while holding back is weaker than the one who was equally matched with ssj2 and had to force himself to further to fight ssb for 2 seconds ?? 17 is ssb tier for sure, Gohan is not a confirmation. you have no proof Gohan competed with a fully powered ssb Goku, Gohan asked his dad to get serious the whole time.

[gofishus]

Considering Goku pulled out SSJB to fight him, yeah, I'd place Android about a few notched above SSJ3 Goku.

SSJB can vary anywhere from SSJ2 level to full power god level depending on how much the user chooses to suppress their power.

[gofishus]

Both 17 and gohan are around the same tier of power who's superior is anyone's guess and we'll need to see by the end of it but both are around blue level that can't be denied
Using toshio statements isn't wise considering in a response to who would win in a fight between golden Frieza and 17 he said he doesn't know

Honestly all we can say for sure is 17 is powerful enough to force Goku to go beyond SSJ2, which at this point means SSJB. It's entirely possible given what concrete evidence we have, 17 is only around current SSJ3 Goku. I believe he's above SSJ3, but below a SSJB Goku at full power. There's no chance 17 posses a challenge to Golden Frieza at his current level. He's at the very least equal to a fully powered SSJB Goku. Given Frieza's track record it's entirely possible he's even stronger. As of 90, Gohan's at a level high enough to compete with a fully powered SSJB Goku, and they've alluded to Gohan achieving a new level of power in the tournament, which could come for a further transformation along the "Ultimate" line or a power level increase brought on some event.

As of right now the list goes:
1. Goku
2. Golden Frieza
3. Vegeta
4. Gohan
5. 17
6. Piccolo
...18/humans

So in your opinion someone who forced Goku to go ssb and fought on par with him while holding back is weaker than the one who was equally matched with ssj2 and had to force himself to further to fight ssb for 2 seconds ?? 17 is ssb tier for sure, Gohan is not a confirmation. you have no proof Gohan competed with a fully powered ssb Goku, Gohan asked his dad to get serious the whole time.

There is no proof that Android 17 is full power SSJB level (how did 17 "force" Goku to go SSJB?). Much like LSSJ Kale tanking a SSJB Goku Kamehameha does not prove that she is full power SSJB level. Because SSJB's power can vary so much. You can't make any of these conclusions just based on a single fight between two characters when neither were at full power.

[Lapislettuce]

Considering Goku pulled out SSJB to fight him, yeah, I'd place Android about a few notched above SSJ3 Goku.

SSJB can vary anywhere from SSJ2 level to full power god level depending on how much the user chooses to suppress their power.

Uuuuh NOPE that's PURE HEADCANON ! if Goku wanted to use ssj2 against 17 he would've done just like he did with Gohan but Goku knew ssb was the right choice to keep up with a suppressed 17 not even a full powered one.

[Lord Frieza]

Out of curiosity, while he was not going all out, how strong dose that make Kakunsa?

[gofishus]

Considering Goku pulled out SSJB to fight him, yeah, I'd place Android about a few notched above SSJ3 Goku.

SSJB can vary anywhere from SSJ2 level to full power god level depending on how much the user chooses to suppress their power.

Uuuuh NOPE that's PURE HEADCANON ! if Goku wanted to use ssj2 against 17 he would've done just like he did with Gohan but Goku knew ssb was the right choice to keep up with a suppressed 17 not even a full powered one.

From http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_Blue

"The form pushes the user's power, strength, and speed to new heights beyond those of previous Super Saiyan levels, as well as a calm mind that make it and its ki easier to control compared to the other Saiyan forms such as Super Saiyan 3 or Super Saiyan God, the ki control of this form allowed both Goku and Vegeta to suppress or increase their power with great ease, unlike Super Saiyan 2 and 3, which only increase their power to the full limit, this feature allowed Goku and Vegeta to hold back much of their power while in this form when fighting against certain opponents (a trait shared with and possibly stemming from the original degree of Super Saiyan mastery). This allows them to spar with much weaker opponents without overwhelming them immediately, as demonstrated in Goku's scuffles with Krillin, and to a lesser extent, Gohan."

If you think that this is false and BS and Goku is always using full SSJB power and cannot regulate it then feel free to change the wiki. Else I'm believing the wiki over you.

[Lapislettuce]

SSJB can vary anywhere from SSJ2 level to full power god level depending on how much the user chooses to suppress their power.

Uuuuh NOPE that's PURE HEADCANON ! if Goku wanted to use ssj2 against 17 he would've done just like he did with Gohan but Goku knew ssb was the right choice to keep up with a suppressed 17 not even a full powered one.

From http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_Blue

"The form pushes the user's power, strength, and speed to new heights beyond those of previous Super Saiyan levels, as well as a calm mind that make it and its ki easier to control compared to the other Saiyan forms such as Super Saiyan 3 or Super Saiyan God, the ki control of this form allowed both Goku and Vegeta to suppress or increase their power with great ease, unlike Super Saiyan 2 and 3, which only increase their power to the full limit, this feature allowed Goku and Vegeta to hold back much of their power while in this form when fighting against certain opponents (a trait shared with and possibly stemming from the original degree of Super Saiyan mastery). This allows them to spar with much weaker opponents without overwhelming them immediately, as demonstrated in Goku's scuffles with Krillin, and to a lesser extent, Gohan."

If you think that this is false and BS and Goku is always using full SSJB power and cannot regulate it then feel free to change the wiki. Else I'm believing the wiki over you.

Oh wow wikia source ! the most reliable source on the internet !! come on dude i just gave you a proof from the show, if Goku judged 17 only being ssj2 level he would've sent ssj2 like with Gohan and Caulifla but NO he knew 17 was above all other forms.

[Lord Frieza]

SSJB can vary anywhere from SSJ2 level to full power god level depending on how much the user chooses to suppress their power.

Uuuuh NOPE that's PURE HEADCANON ! if Goku wanted to use ssj2 against 17 he would've done just like he did with Gohan but Goku knew ssb was the right choice to keep up with a suppressed 17 not even a full powered one.

From http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_Blue

"The form pushes the user's power, strength, and speed to new heights beyond those of previous Super Saiyan levels, as well as a calm mind that make it and its ki easier to control compared to the other Saiyan forms such as Super Saiyan 3 or Super Saiyan God, the ki control of this form allowed both Goku and Vegeta to suppress or increase their power with great ease, unlike Super Saiyan 2 and 3, which only increase their power to the full limit, this feature allowed Goku and Vegeta to hold back much of their power while in this form when fighting against certain opponents (a trait shared with and possibly stemming from the original degree of Super Saiyan mastery). This allows them to spar with much weaker opponents without overwhelming them immediately, as demonstrated in Goku's scuffles with Krillin, and to a lesser extent, Gohan."

If you think that this is false and BS and Goku is always using full SSJB power and cannot regulate it then feel free to change the wiki. Else I'm believing the wiki over you.

That is a very ill advised choice. The Dragon Ball wiki has no connection to Kanzenshuu and has a very long and well documented history of being very inaccurate at best and deliberately misleading at worst.

[larzooma]

Considering Goku pulled out SSJB to fight him, yeah, I'd place Android about a few notched above SSJ3 Goku.

SSJB can vary anywhere from SSJ2 level to full power god level depending on how much the user chooses to suppress their power.

Uuuuh NOPE that's PURE HEADCANON ! if Goku wanted to use ssj2 against 17 he would've done just like he did with Gohan but Goku knew ssb was the right choice to keep up with a suppressed 17 not even a full powered one.

Although the true nature of how SSJB works remains a mystery, I think we've seen a number of examples as of late showing a small initial power increase when Goku and Vegeta transform from SSJ2 to SSJB. I think the combination of the increase they've both achieved in their base form coupled with the way SSJB works allows for the gap to decrease between the two. SSJB seems to offer them a wider spectrum of power with a much higher cap. As such, SSJ3 may offer a level of power on par with low to mid level SSJB, but the considerable drawbacks makes the transformation obsolete.

[gofishus]

Uuuuh NOPE that's PURE HEADCANON ! if Goku wanted to use ssj2 against 17 he would've done just like he did with Gohan but Goku knew ssb was the right choice to keep up with a suppressed 17 not even a full powered one.

From http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_Blue

"The form pushes the user's power, strength, and speed to new heights beyond those of previous Super Saiyan levels, as well as a calm mind that make it and its ki easier to control compared to the other Saiyan forms such as Super Saiyan 3 or Super Saiyan God, the ki control of this form allowed both Goku and Vegeta to suppress or increase their power with great ease, unlike Super Saiyan 2 and 3, which only increase their power to the full limit, this feature allowed Goku and Vegeta to hold back much of their power while in this form when fighting against certain opponents (a trait shared with and possibly stemming from the original degree of Super Saiyan mastery). This allows them to spar with much weaker opponents without overwhelming them immediately, as demonstrated in Goku's scuffles with Krillin, and to a lesser extent, Gohan."

If you think that this is false and BS and Goku is always using full SSJB power and cannot regulate it then feel free to change the wiki. Else I'm believing the wiki over you.

That is a very ill advised choice. The Dragon Ball wiki has no connection to Kanzenshuu and has a very long and well documented history of being very inaccurate at best and deliberately misleading at worst.

So a random forum poster on Kanzenshuu (who is obviously biased to his favorite character Android 17) is more accurate? Where else would you go to state facts about SSJB?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Wouldn't Super Saiyan 3 Goku be way above where he was in the Boo saga by this point?

Anyway, after looking over everything, #17 should be above Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

[Lapislettuce]

SSJB can vary anywhere from SSJ2 level to full power god level depending on how much the user chooses to suppress their power.

Uuuuh NOPE that's PURE HEADCANON ! if Goku wanted to use ssj2 against 17 he would've done just like he did with Gohan but Goku knew ssb was the right choice to keep up with a suppressed 17 not even a full powered one.

Although the true nature of how SSJB works remains a mystery, I think we've seen a number of examples as of late showing a small initial power increase when Goku and Vegeta transform from SSJ2 to SSJB. I think the combination of the increase they've both achieved in their base form coupled with the way SSJB works allows for the gap to decrease between the two. SSJB seems to offer them a wider spectrum of power with a much higher cap. As such, SSJ3 may offer a level of power on par with low to mid level SSJB, but the considerable drawbacks makes the transformation obsolete.

You're missing the point ! you're using all these theories to downplay 17 who clearly made Goku go ssb but you're not using these theories with Gohan who didn't push Goku to any level above ssj2 he had to ask first, sure he's shown higher power later on when he forced himself but still you're being kinda biased. 17 and Gohan should be at the very least equal. not to mention we've seen Gohan's limits and we don't know what 17's full power extent is.

[gofishus]

Uuuuh NOPE that's PURE HEADCANON ! if Goku wanted to use ssj2 against 17 he would've done just like he did with Gohan but Goku knew ssb was the right choice to keep up with a suppressed 17 not even a full powered one.

Although the true nature of how SSJB works remains a mystery, I think we've seen a number of examples as of late showing a small initial power increase when Goku and Vegeta transform from SSJ2 to SSJB. I think the combination of the increase they've both achieved in their base form coupled with the way SSJB works allows for the gap to decrease between the two. SSJB seems to offer them a wider spectrum of power with a much higher cap. As such, SSJ3 may offer a level of power on par with low to mid level SSJB, but the considerable drawbacks makes the transformation obsolete.

You're missing the point ! you're using all these theories to downplay 17 who clearly made Goku go ssb but you're not using these theories with Gohan who didn't push Goku to any level above ssj2 he had to ask first, sure he's shown higher power later on when he forced himself but still you're being kinda biased. 17 and Gohan should be at the very least equal. not to mention we've seen Gohan's limits and we don't know what 17's full power extent is.

No, we haven't seen either Gohan or 17's limits. Next episode is Gohan's episode so we'll get more details about his true power then.

[supercat]

The usual downplay going on here. Android 17 is presumably leagues, no worlds above any form of Buu at this point. It has long been indicated that SSJ Goku took on and kept the powers of his ritually powered up red-haired self. This means, SSJ Goku alone should be able to pound any form of SSJ Vegetto from the Buu saga with the greatest of ease. No one ever said SSJ Goku lost these powers. The only thing going against this are fan theories, speculations and more fan theories. If beating down SSJ Goku isn't enough of a feat for Android 17 to be above Buu, there's also him fighting evenly with SSB Goku with minimal struggle while only using a portion of his power.

SSB Goku > / = Android 17 >>> SSJ Goku = ritually powered up Goku (vs Beerus) >>>>>>>>>> SSJ Vegetto >>> Buuhan >> Super Buu >>> Mr. Buu.

Yeah, Buu's a joke at this point.

[Lapislettuce]

The usual downplay going on here. Android 17 is presumably leagues, no worlds above any form of Buu at this point. It has long been indicated that SSJ Goku took on and kept the powers of his ritually powered up red-haired self. This means, SSJ Goku alone should be able to pound any form of SSJ Vegetto from the Buu saga with the greatest of ease. No one ever said SSJ Goku lost these powers. The only thing going against this are fan theories, speculations and more fan theories. If beating down SSJ Goku isn't enough of a feat for Android 17 to be above Buu, there's also him fighting evenly with SSB Goku with minimal struggle while only using a portion of his power.

SSB Goku > / = Android 17 >>> SSJ Goku = ritually powered up Goku (vs Beerus) >>>>>>>>>> SSJ Vegetto >>> Buuhan >> Super Buu >>> Mr. Buu.

Yeah, Buu's a joke at this point.

Thank you so much for giving me hope that some people here are intellignet.

[Lord Frieza]

So a random forum poster on Kanzenshuu (who is obviously biased to his favorite character Android 17) is more accurate? Where else would you go to state facts about SSJB?

Kanzenshuu is run by Dragon Ball fans who pride themselves on only providing the most accurate information. This information is readily acceptable on this site and its staff and long time members can provide you with down to the nearest decimal point. These same people will also bring the hammer down an anything that is less then such, providing a very, very reliable and harsh system of fact checking. So regardless of his liking of #17 if he was talking crap, you have people here who know dragon ball better then anyone else in the world, and they would correct him. This site is more accurate then the wiki will ever be and the users have access to that.

The dragon ball wiki on the other hand for years only used the american dub as a source, making only brief mention any Japaneses sources, though admittedly they have made some small improvement in resent years but that was by necessity rather then choice. A very big red flag in regards to quality. I can state as fact that the entire paragraph of that articular you make reference to has zero official facts behind it. Nowhere is it stated at any time that SSB's "ki control" allows the user to power down to fight weaker opponents. Not the anime, not the manga and their are no official statements or guidebooks. None. It is pure fan speculation that should not be stated as fact by any credible source, it should be at best down in the notes section at the bottom of the page and clearly labeled as such.

If you want evidence as to just how bad the wiki is...

viewtopic.php?t=30735

viewtopic.php?t=22272

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13791

Plus a quote from one of this sites own members/staff.

I'm sorry, but I can't hold back much more of the arrogance and snark. I did my best with the first response, taking a couple days to piece together my thoughts and re-write things... but I find it all to be wholly ridiculous the more I read.

The majority of responses in that DB Wikia forum thread seem to be from people that are incapable of writing proper sentences, never mind contribute accurate information to a community-based encyclopedia and accept/consider/integrate constructive criticism/feedback. These are not people that, in an ideal world, should be contributing. I used the phrase in my prior response, but it rings true more than ever before -- every response is totally and fully self-serving, having little to do with the value of the resource as a whole, and more to do with pushing their own personal agenda* of "FUNimation > everything else"... at the expense of information accuracy.

(* Yes, you could rightly argue that we totally have own own "agenda" here, in that pushing the original Japanese version as the basis makes the most sense. However, we have a lot more going for us in that regard in terms of sheer logic -- primary source versus adaptation, a hugely lesser degree of contradictions and needless explanations of those contradictions, etc.)

It is a showcase of everything that is wrong with the current state of the DB Wikia... an entity which I knew almost nothing about prior to this, and could read like the back of my hand with little more than a couple days' research.

While I fully believe that a huge portion of what is "wrong" with the DB Wikia is the fact that it uses FUNimation's (old) English dub as its basis, is there any discussion among its members and administrators anywhere about the fact that so much information, if not simply wrong on a base level, is just made up bullshit...? Forget naming an article "TIEN" vs "TENSHINHAN" -- that's the least its problems -- does anyone there even care that so much of what is written is baseless conjecture and absurdity? And on top of that, written like a fourth-grader just found the Internet for the first time?

I'm being very mean. I'll admit it. I may even be unfair. I'm probably being the most realistic, though -- the way DB Wikia is set up right now, it's a complete failure as an accurate resource. It's not worth trying to "fix" the raw logistical problems with it, never mind subjective stuff. It's just not. The reason that Daizenshuu EX and Kanzentai were created in the first place was because we each saw flaws and holes with what was being provided online. We gathered the actual experts, created a community around evidence- and research-based ideals, and are clearly seen as the authority figures in the English-language fandom.

Call us delusional, arrogant, mean, poopie-heads, whatever you want... we're at least striving for something more than "adequate" with what we're offering, and you can expect some pretty slick shit in the future. I wanted to do it anyway for a few years now, but the last couple days of reading this nonsense has me bashing my head against the wall more than I'd like to admit.

It's not like I don't wish the darn thing success and grand improvements... but it seems like the people who happen to have fallen in place as administrators/moderators want to do everything in their power to work against that.

(And yes, B... shit's serious, yo.)

[TheMikado]

I see the usual mess going on in here. We have people guessing 17 is anywhere from just above Z SSJ2 Goku all the way up to surpassing SSG.

It don't see how there can be such a wide range nor any agreement when when one party is arguing that a difference of 100,000% in strength levels.

[larzooma]

Uuuuh NOPE that's PURE HEADCANON ! if Goku wanted to use ssj2 against 17 he would've done just like he did with Gohan but Goku knew ssb was the right choice to keep up with a suppressed 17 not even a full powered one.

Although the true nature of how SSJB works remains a mystery, I think we've seen a number of examples as of late showing a small initial power increase when Goku and Vegeta transform from SSJ2 to SSJB. I think the combination of the increase they've both achieved in their base form coupled with the way SSJB works allows for the gap to decrease between the two. SSJB seems to offer them a wider spectrum of power with a much higher cap. As such, SSJ3 may offer a level of power on par with low to mid level SSJB, but the considerable drawbacks makes the transformation obsolete.

You're missing the point ! you're using all these theories to downplay 17 who clearly made Goku go ssb but you're not using these theories with Gohan who didn't push Goku to any level above ssj2 he had to ask first, sure he's shown higher power later on when he forced himself but still you're being kinda biased. 17 and Gohan should be at the very least equal. not to mention we've seen Gohan's limits and we don't know what 17's full power extent is.

I'm basing the level Goku's using against 17 and Gohan based on Goku's typical approach to powering up and transforming. He never goes beyond the minimal level needed to contend with and defeat an opponent. He's notorious for moving through transformations, and even outright lying about his max level, simply to test the opponents ability. The fact that 17's powerful enough to force him beyond SSJ2 level, means he's going to transform to SSJB at the lowest levels to see how much more he needs to use to compete.

The fight with Gohan was different for a number of reasons. One, unlike 17, Gohan's pushing himself to his full extent, so he can show his father how powerful he's become. Two, the spar with Goku is almost like training with the next master to further help along your progression. Although Gohan respects Piccolo beyond almost anyone else, he doesn't have an overwhelming need to prove himself as a powerful fighter like he does with Goku. Three, you can clearly see Goku's pushing himself to the max level to meet Gohan's charge after he powered up even further.

Goku's simply assessing 17's power by sparing, but there's much more to the one on one spar against Gohan.