The stakes couldn't be higher yet there is no tension at all

[sintzu]

Goku is selfish but he's a decent man.

Toriyama's description of Goku doesn't really go with how he wrote him in the manga. It could be that's what he intended for him to be like but through his writing he turned out differently without him realizing.

Back in the day he said he didn't like Vegeta that much yet he's one of the most used characters in the Z portion and one of the most developed. Yet he didn't do anything major with his favorite character Piccolo during the Cell games and Buu arc.

I guess when you think about it, most of DB turned out the opposite of what Toriyama intended it to.

[Michsi]

Goku is selfish but he's a decent man.

Toriyama's description of Goku doesn't really go with how he wrote him in the manga. It could be that's what he intended for him to be like but through his writing he turned out differently without him realizing.

Back in the day he said he didn't like Vegeta that much yet he's one of the most used characters in the Z portion and one of the most developed. Yet he didn't do anything major with his favorite character Piccolo during the Cell games and Buu arc.

I guess when you think about it, most of DB turned out the opposite of what Toriyama intended it to.

If by Cell arc you include the portion with the androids (because some people do) then he did a lot actually, it just didn't amount to much and he got outclassed by the end of it. And he did a lot in the Buu arc as well, just not as a fighter. His role as the straight man to Gotenks buffoonery was hilarious imo, and if memory serves, this is one of Toriyama's favorite fights in the entire series. So my point is, since Toriyama doesn't really care that much about the fighting/ power level side of the story, it might not be that important to him who is stronger than who. He doesn't need to have his favorite in the top 3 or something.

Concerning Goku, I think I get what Toriyama meant, but it's hard to find that balance which incorporates both his battle obsessed side with his more generous and considerate nature so some end up leaning a little too much one way or the other. But I don't think the Z era writers were wrong with portraying him a little more hero like, there's plenty of moments in the manga that allows for that sort of interpretation.

[sintzu]

If by Cell arc you include the portion with the androids then he did a lot actually.

He did a lot in the Buu arc as well, just not as a fighter.

I mean the Cell games, everything before that was great for him.

I was talking mostly about fighting. I think he should've at least fought Dabura.

[Michsi]

I mean the Cell games, everything before that was great for him.

Oh, then yeah. Though his little moment of telling Goku what's what regarding Gohan was not bad.

I was talking mostly about fighting. I think he should've at least fought Dabura.

Agreed!

[MR.Mark]

Goku is selfish but he's a decent man.

Toriyama's description of Goku doesn't really go with how he wrote him in the manga. It could be that's what he intended for him to be like but through his writing he turned out differently without him realizing.

Then again, on the same token, Goku just LET Gero make the cyborgs. So I dunno, Goku has his moments, but by and large he wants to fight strong guys. The story of Super for the most part just allows Goku to be himself. If the plot calls on him to be abit more heroic, like with Zamasu when he heard his family was killed, he acts in kind.

Most of Super has been battles against other Gods so far. Plus we just see Goku more, Toriyama has mostly given up tropes to keep him away from fights so it looks a lot less like he's rushing in to save the day.

[sintzu]

Then again, on the same token, Goku just LET Gero make the cyborgs. Goku has his moments, but by and large he wants to fight strong guys.

He couldn't exactly kill someone for something he didn't do. Goku for sure wanted to fight the androids (even though he knew the future was a mess so he took a very selfish gambel) but even if he didn't I doubt he'd go to the old man's door and throw him into the sun.

[MR.Mark]

They could of had him arrested, lol, or just grabbed him and flew him somewhere else while the others blew up his lab and all his diagrams. Another case of if you added logic there would be no story/fight.

[Lord Beerus]

They could of had him arrested, lol, or just grabbed him and flew him somewhere else while the others blew up his lab and all his diagrams. Another case of if you added logic there would be no story/fight.

That's Dragon Ball in a nutshell. I'd say at least half of the story doesn't happen if the characters actually used rational thinking and applied sensible logic.

[Shuby]

It's not only about how Goku behaves people, the comedy is unbalanced in db super there's too much and at the wrong time. Db had a perfect balance and dbz was more serious which I personally loved.

[MR.Mark]

So Goku offering old Kaioshin Bulma while everyone was dead was the perfect moment for levity?

DEEBEEZEE was never as hardcore as some people seem to remember.

[Michsi]

So Goku offering old Kaioshin Bulma while everyone was dead was the perfect moment for levity?

DEEBEEZEE was never as hardcore as some people seem to remember.

It was no Attack on Titan, but no one can deny that it had a very different tone to DBS. And while I don't agree with the notion that blood = mature content = cool show, seeing the damage the villains did made them seem more formidable and cruel. It does change how you view the story. I mean for Pete's sake, isn't there a scene in the Buss Saga where Gohan sees a random family that got brutally slaughtered. For all his love for light hearted, silly humor, Toriyama didn't shy away from showing grossness and sadism, and whether we like it or not, it does alter how we perceive the action.

This isn't a complaint btw. I get why DBS is how it is, time slot and all, but it baffles me how so many would argue so fervently that DBS is simply staying true the core of the franchise, and dismiss those who miss that different tone of DBZ.

[gofishus]

So Goku offering old Kaioshin Bulma while everyone was dead was the perfect moment for levity?

DEEBEEZEE was never as hardcore as some people seem to remember.

It was no Attack on Titan, but no one can deny that it had a very different tone to DBS. And while I don't agree with the notion that blood = mature content = cool show, seeing the damage the villains did made them seem more formidable and cruel. It does change how you view the story. I mean for Pete's sake, isn't there a scene in the Buss Saga where Gohan sees a random family that got brutally slaughtered. For all his love for light hearted, silly humor, Toriyama didn't shy away from showing grossness and sadism, and whether we like it or not, it does alter how we perceive the action.

This isn't a complaint btw. I get why DBS is how it is, time slot and all, but it baffles me how so many would argue so fervently that DBS is simply staying true the core of the franchise, and dismiss those who miss that different tone of DBZ.

One of my favorite moments is in the Bojack movie. In the original Japanese uncensored version, Gohan when he goes SSJ2 and becomes the best version of himself (IMO) literally punches and kicks Bojack's minions in half with the blood and gore and everything. Then punches right through Bojack's chest. Thats pure badassery right there.

[Shuby]

So Goku offering old Kaioshin Bulma while everyone was dead was the perfect moment for levity?

DEEBEEZEE was never as hardcore as some people seem to remember.

It was no Attack on Titan, but no one can deny that it had a very different tone to DBS. And while I don't agree with the notion that blood = mature content = cool show, seeing the damage the villains did made them seem more formidable and cruel. It does change how you view the story. I mean for Pete's sake, isn't there a scene in the Buss Saga where Gohan sees a random family that got brutally slaughtered. For all his love for light hearted, silly humor, Toriyama didn't shy away from showing grossness and sadism, and whether we like it or not, it does alter how we perceive the action.

This isn't a complaint btw. I get why DBS is how it is, time slot and all, but it baffles me how so many would argue so fervently that DBS is simply staying true the core of the franchise, and dismiss those who miss that different tone of DBZ.

Anyone dismissing the tone dbz had is just lying to himself.

[BWri]

It seems like that nr 17 and 18 are taking the fights seriously, everone else seems to be joking around, forgiving people nor not taking the tournament or the opponents seriously. Let's be honest Buu transforming into Kid Buu and destroying things had more tension to it then the tournament so far. The writing and powerscalling is abysmal and the fights are sometimes too uneventful. The stakes couldn't be higher yet there is no tension at all, what could be more worse then a universe being whiped out, yet do you feel tension from the fighters?

There was plenty FROM UNIVERSE 9 WHEN IT WAS ERASED subarashi

Seriously though I know what you mean, but in the next ep Gohan looks like he possibly regrets damning U10 to extinction and as it ramps up, I'm sure we'll get more tension. DBS just has this tone that's all over the place, at times its in gag mode, parodying even itself and other times it's grim AF like when U9 was eliminated. What do you call that? Slingshot tone? Seesaw tone?

[BWri]

Goku is selfish but he's a decent man.

Toriyama's description of Goku doesn't really go with how he wrote him in the manga. It could be that's what he intended for him to be like but through his writing he turned out differently without him realizing.

Back in the day he said he didn't like Vegeta that much yet he's one of the most used characters in the Z portion and one of the most developed. Yet he didn't do anything major with his favorite character Piccolo during the Cell games and Buu arc.

I guess when you think about it, most of DB turned out the opposite of what Toriyama intended it to.

Likely because of the influence of his editors. I think they had a HUGE influence on what DBZ turned out to be.

[MR.Mark]

So Goku offering old Kaioshin Bulma while everyone was dead was the perfect moment for levity?

DEEBEEZEE was never as hardcore as some people seem to remember.

It was no Attack on Titan, but no one can deny that it had a very different tone to DBS. And while I don't agree with the notion that blood = mature content = cool show, seeing the damage the villains did made them seem more formidable and cruel. It does change how you view the story. I mean for Pete's sake, isn't there a scene in the Buss Saga where Gohan sees a random family that got brutally slaughtered. For all his love for light hearted, silly humor, Toriyama didn't shy away from showing grossness and sadism, and whether we like it or not, it does alter how we perceive the action.

This isn't a complaint btw. I get why DBS is how it is, time slot and all, but it baffles me how so many would argue so fervently that DBS is simply staying true the core of the franchise, and dismiss those who miss that different tone of DBZ.

Anyone dismissing the tone dbz had is just lying to himself.

So the Buu arcs tone was more hardcore than all of Super? I think not.

[Zagacious]

It was no Attack on Titan, but no one can deny that it had a very different tone to DBS. And while I don't agree with the notion that blood = mature content = cool show, seeing the damage the villains did made them seem more formidable and cruel. It does change how you view the story. I mean for Pete's sake, isn't there a scene in the Buss Saga where Gohan sees a random family that got brutally slaughtered. For all his love for light hearted, silly humor, Toriyama didn't shy away from showing grossness and sadism, and whether we like it or not, it does alter how we perceive the action.

This isn't a complaint btw. I get why DBS is how it is, time slot and all, but it baffles me how so many would argue so fervently that DBS is simply staying true the core of the franchise, and dismiss those who miss that different tone of DBZ.

Anyone dismissing the tone dbz had is just lying to himself.

So the Buu arcs tone was more hardcore than all of Super? I think not.

That's not even what he said, but I would argue yes, except for minor parts of Black Goku arc, the Buu arc felt more menacing and hopeless than a lot of DBS, even the Tournament of Power doesn't feel like a threat or like anyone is in any sort of danger. Super generally has better/more characters, but the tone where you feel threatened by something so powerful is not really existent in most of DBS, except for when gods of destruction erase stuff instantly, otherwise nothing really feels threatening or ominous at all. The Grand Priest feels threatening, but none of the other really powerful characters or situations seem like a threat at all, and it doesn't help that the way characters are acting like nothing matters only reinforces the lack of tension.

Barely anyone in the tournament is showing actual emotion such as rage or despair, like you'd expect in a tournament where every universe is fighting for their and everyone else in their universe's lives, but all the characters, not just Goku/Vegeta, but all the characters in other universes as well are acting like this is just another battle and there's no consequence. The only display of any emotion or tension was when U9 got erased, after that it's like everyone forgot it happened and just went back to not caring at all.

[Toonami1998]

Dude the absolute strongest fighters are miles ahead of everyone else, its like a 10%/90% margin, why would they waste there time on small fry when they all will wear themselves out, eliminate themselves in the process and then swoop in for the easy ko. It will get serious when the leaders or top 3 get into it and that will happen towards the end thankfully..

[Michsi]

Barely anyone in the tournament is showing actual emotion such as rage or despair, like you'd expect in a tournament where every universe is fighting for their and everyone else in their universe's lives, but all the characters, not just Goku/Vegeta, but all the characters in other universes as well are acting like this is just another battle and there's no consequence. The only display of any emotion or tension was when U9 got erased, after that it's like everyone forgot it happened and just went back to not caring at all.

Ah yes, good point! The borderline nonchalance some characters display is kinda irritating. Now not to say DBZ didn't have that too to some degree, but not like this. I actually think this might be what's bothering me the most. Not the lack of battle damage or blood or whatever, but the characters feeling pressure.

It seems we might be seeing Gohan be affected after eliminating his opponents and possibly getting them erased, which is how it's supposed to be, but we'll see how they handle it.

[funrush]

I think it's odd that the characters don't seem to realize how serious this tournament is. When 17 blasted those U2 girls both Goku and Toppo rallied to let them finish transforming. Why let easy pickings become tanks? Just chuck them off the stage before they even transform. Did Cell teach you nothing? Goku's a battle-hungry idiot, so his reaction makes sense, but why should Toppo want those U2 girls up and fighting? Surely he's smarter than "I like them cause we both pose."