Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Legion]

It's been a while since I've done this. Now that we know there aren't two bases it was worth doing again. For now I have not taken any possible retcon into account, I just take it as it is.

Tier 0

Zeno | Future Zeno

Tier 1

Grand Priest
Vados
Whis

Tier 2

Jiren
Sword of Hope Trunks
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Champa
Fused Zamasu (Half Corrupted)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken | Toppo
Fused Zamasu (Halo)

Tier 3

Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan God Goku

Tier 4

Giant Bergamo
Ultimate Gohan
Android 17
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Zamasu

Tier 5

Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Caulifla | Cabba | Kale
Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Magetta
Frost (Final Form)
Kahseral

Tier 6

Goku | Vegeta | Frieza (Final Form)
Caulifla | Cabba | Bergamo
Future Trunks
Frost (Third Form)

Tier 7

Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Beerus (Under "10%")
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Piccolo
Frieza (First Form)
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
Super Saiyan Gohan

Tier 8

Gohan
Tagoma
Buu
Basil (Drug Enhanced)
Basil | Lavender
Super Saiyan Kid Trunks | Goten
Android 18

Tier 9

Kid Trunks | Goten
Krillin
Tien
Botamo

So that's it, Kale, Gohan and Android 17 are still a mystery. People might wonder why Base Goku and Base Gohan are so far apart, well it what the show kinda presented. Base Goku should be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks while Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was weaker than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu Arc. The doesn't really make sense I know but maybe it'll be clarified more in the future.

If there was a retcon and they did nerf Base Goku I'd still put him around Buu's level.

Otherwise for the most part I think it kinda works. I didn't bother including all the fodder in the Tournament, they'd mostly be in Tier 8 and 9 though.

Trunks is really overrated here I don't understand why people still rank Jiren when actually we don't know anything about him.

About Goku SSG, i think he wil use that form again because it requires less energy and stamina than SSB. Of course SSJB is more stronger.

[Draconic]

I see the on going saga of "How the fuck Goku & Vegeta's powers even work" continues in earnest. I'll seriously bust a nut laughing if the anime gives SSG to Vegeta too even if there's literally no fucking way you can logically give it to him in this version of events.

What? Why is there no way?

Because they've made it clear rituals = god, training with Whis = gets just Blue.

Suddenly having Vegeta get it, fuck, this form at aaallll showing up after they used the SSGod being a temporary power up thing from the movies causes even more problems.

And where is it stated or shown that one excludes the other? All that we have is that Blue is a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. Goku had the power of Super Saiyan God without being a Super Saiyan, to the point in the BoG movie he can actually transform into it by himself. Since Vegeta can also access the Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, who's to say he can't do it without Super Saiyan? If Goku can, especially since he did lose the form, there's no reason Vegeta couldn't.

Whis's training is based around the Saiyans getting God Ki. Using it with Super Saiyan results in Blue. From that it's pretty easy to assume if you use it without SSJ, i.e. base, you get God. As long as the two got to control the Ki there's no reason why not both couldn't use it, ritual or not.

I mean, God returning brings with it a lot of story problems, but most of them are of the "why? why now?" kind, rather the "how?" one.

[ekrolo2]

What? Why is there no way?

Because they've made it clear rituals = god, training with Whis = gets just Blue.

Suddenly having Vegeta get it, fuck, this form at aaallll showing up after they used the SSGod being a temporary power up thing from the movies causes even more problems.

And where is it stated or shown that one excludes the other? All that we have is that Blue is a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. Goku had the power of Super Saiyan God without being a Super Saiyan, to the point in the BoG movie he can actually transform into it by himself. Since Vegeta can also access the Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, who's to say he can't do it without Super Saiyan? If Goku can, especially since he did lose the form, there's no reason Vegeta couldn't.

Whis's training is based around the Saiyans getting God Ki. Using it with Super Saiyan results in Blue. From that it's pretty easy to assume if you use it without SSJ, i.e. base, you get God. As long as the two got to control the Ki there's no reason why not both couldn't use it, ritual or not.

I mean, God returning brings with it a lot of story problems, but most of them are of the "why? why now?" kind, rather the "how?" one.

That designation of "SS with the power of SSGod" gets really dubious when we have Goku with Gods power boosting everything giving him multiple forms of SS that're to varying degrees powered by God Ki.

I also really doubt that when Vegeta's training, made specifically to showcase him getting Blue without the ritual IE SSGod would have a backdoor open to give him God. Especially since this isn't the manga where we know for an absolute fact that Goku & Vegeta got boosted already, meaning SSGod has no reason to return.

[LowRyder2005]

What? Why is there no way?

Because they've made it clear rituals = god, training with Whis = gets just Blue.

Suddenly having Vegeta get it, fuck, this form at aaallll showing up after they used the SSGod being a temporary power up thing from the movies causes even more problems.

And where is it stated or shown that one excludes the other? All that we have is that Blue is a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. Goku had the power of Super Saiyan God without being a Super Saiyan, to the point in the BoG movie he can actually transform into it by himself. Since Vegeta can also access the Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, who's to say he can't do it without Super Saiyan? If Goku can, especially since he did lose the form, there's no reason Vegeta couldn't.

Whis's training is based around the Saiyans getting God Ki. Using it with Super Saiyan results in Blue. From that it's pretty easy to assume if you use it without SSJ, i.e. base, you get God. As long as the two got to control the Ki there's no reason why not both couldn't use it, ritual or not.

I mean, God returning brings with it a lot of story problems, but most of them are of the "why? why now?" kind, rather the "how?" one.

Indeed. Problems which will also be most likely addressed in what is at least a roundabout way in the episode, much like when Kaioken returned.

Gods power boosting everything giving him multiple forms of SS that're to varying degrees powered by God Ki.

Not following. Is this your extrapolation on how it worked? Because as far as we know, the Super Saiyan forms could or perhaps even *should* really be the same, since the "non-God" Gohan and Goku are still comparable in strength and their forms are purportedly shown to work in the same fashion.

You know what'd be a cool way to re-introduce SSG?

Have it be that all this time, Goku and Vegeta have been using their SS forms to channel the power of SSG, turning it into SSB. Thus, for the longest time, they haven't ever thought of trying to turn into SSG again (or for the first time in Vegeta's case), since they could basically already do that with SSB, with more power and complete Ki control at the cost of somewhat inferior stamina to FPSS.

Well, maybe have Goku use what he's learned thus far to attempt to channel the power of SSG in base form, something he's never been able to do before, ultimately culminating in success for the fight against Dypso. He could be surprised that he managed to do this without turning SS, and find the benefits quite nice, since there's not as much stamina drain as SSB whilst still having a decent amount of power. I've long since theorized that only their SS forms were capable of channeling SSG's power effectively, with their base forms only tasting that power and not actually transforming and getting stronger. Perhaps now is when that all changes.

Hell, have this serve as the next step in achieving whatever secret power Goku is hypothesized to ascend to to fight Jiren that will supposedly end the reign of the gods.

I don't think the explanation will be much different than that myself.

[ekrolo2]

Indeed. Problems which will also be most likely addressed in what is at least a roundabout way in the episode, much like when Kaioken returned.

KK coming back was a mistake and given the track record, I expect this to turn out as a bad call too.

Not following. Is this your extrapolation on how it worked? Because as far as we know, the Super Saiyan forms could or perhaps even *should* really be the same, since the "non-God" Gohan and Goku are still comparable in strength and their forms are purportedly shown to work in the same fashion.

Goku got all of his forms boosted by absorbing SSGod, this much is obvious when he can put up a fight against Beerus as a mere Super Saiyan when his best form before (3) couldn't do anything. How much stronger Goku has become is the subject of retconning where sometimes he's above SS3 Gotenks and other times Fat Boo can give him trouble but the principle is the same, from Base to Blue, Goku's got varying degrees of God Ki boosting him at all times in the anime as a consequence of SSGod fading away and getting absorbed.

Thus my issues with Blue being "the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of an SSG" when fucking all of them are powered by God to varying degrees, not just Blue. Hell, BASE got improved from it. It's a definition from the F movie that makes sense there but doesn't in the context of Super where we've got multiple SS forms empowered by SSG.

[LowRyder2005]

... "Was it bad" or you simply didn't like it? Because they gave what's arguably a suitable explanation as to why Kaioken was not used and only resurfaced after Goku learned to control it in Blue.

Goku got all of his forms boosted by absorbing SSGod, this much is obvious when he can put up a fight against Beerus as a mere Super Saiyan when his best form before (3) couldn't do anything.

That's at the time of BOG, you really don't know or can't conclude on what happened afterwards -- notwithstanding the very obvious retcon that took place at some of the later points of Super (i.e. Super Saiyan Gohan surpasses the base Goku who curbstomped Gotenks, and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is weaker than Ultimate Gohan from Z; along with other throwaways like Goku being comparable "to the gods" only after he turns Blue per the words of the Hakaishin, #18's strength, Buu's performances, etc.).

As far as to what we know, the reasoning that holds up well the most is that Goku's power as a Super Saiyan seen in the BOG arc of, specifically, Super was entirely transient and disapperead or became something else. Out-of-universe, it was some residual of a movie plotline that most likely involved that Super Saiyan being upgraded to Blue next, which would've gone on to become Goku's only transformation (otherwise we might as well need to go full circle to the two-base theory again, or "Goku can turn on his Super Saiyan God power on and off").

[Bullza]

I also really doubt that when Vegeta's training, made specifically to showcase him getting Blue without the ritual IE SSGod would have a backdoor open to give him God. Especially since this isn't the manga where we know for an absolute fact that Goku & Vegeta got boosted already, meaning SSGod has no reason to return.

Vegeta trained for six months by doing chores which made him stronger than he ever was but it was when he was thrown into Whis' staff that he learned how to become a Super Saiyan God.

There's really no reason at all why Vegeta can't be capable of turning into Super Saiyan God. If he couldn't become a Super Saiyan God then he couldn't have become a Super Saiyan Blue. We've only seen him use Blue, like Goku, because it's supposed to be more powerful.

So like the manga he should be able to use that form no problem.

[ekrolo2]

... "Was it bad" or you simply didn't like it? Because they gave what's arguably a suitable explanation as to why Kaioken was not used and only resurfaced after Goku learned to control it in Blue.

I don't like their explanation for it but I think KK coming back as a way to boost Goku would've been fine.... if they didn't push it to ten times. This means that Goku & Vegeta are, with regular Blue, over 10 times weaker then Beerus and probably a lot more. Goku & Vegeta might as well give up on every reaching him with that kind of gap, especially Vegeta who's about to get even more completely outclassed then he already is.

That's at the time of BOG, you really don't know or can't conclude on what happened afterwards -- notwithstanding the very obvious retcon that took place at some of the later points of Super (i.e. Super Saiyan Gohan surpasses the base Goku who curbstomped Gotenks, and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is weaker than Ultimate Gohan from Z; along with other throwaways like Goku being comparable "to the gods" only after he turns Blue per the words of the Hakaishin, #18's strength, Buu's performances, etc.).

As far as to what we know, the reasoning that holds up well the most is that Goku's power as a Super Saiyan seen in the BOG arc of, specifically, Super was entirely transient and disapperead or became something else. Out-of-universe, it was some residual of a movie plotline that most likely involved that Super Saiyan being upgraded to Blue next, which would've gone on to become Goku's only transformation (otherwise we might as well need to go full circle to the two-base theory again, or "Goku can turn on his Super Saiyan God power on and off").

It's not just in BoG, even as late as this arc we've got stuff like Goku being able to fight an improved Fat Boo in Base and hold his own without needing to transform. Every subsequent arc has decreased just how much Goku's post God power is but the principle has remained: God went the away because it's power boosted Goku's other stuff up by a lot. Training has certainly helped him improve but what's the bloody point of the BoG arc & SSGod if it's power just entirely vanished after a single fight and Goku had to go from weaker then Namek Freeza to Fat Boo tier with his training under Whis.

I also really doubt that when Vegeta's training, made specifically to showcase him getting Blue without the ritual IE SSGod would have a backdoor open to give him God. Especially since this isn't the manga where we know for an absolute fact that Goku & Vegeta got boosted already, meaning SSGod has no reason to return.

Vegeta trained for six months by doing chores which made him stronger than he ever was but it was when he was thrown into Whis' staff that he learned how to become a Super Saiyan God.

There's really no reason at all why Vegeta can't be capable of turning into Super Saiyan God. If he couldn't become a Super Saiyan God then he couldn't have become a Super Saiyan Blue. We've only seen him use Blue, like Goku, because it's supposed to be more powerful.

So like the manga he should be able to use that form no problem.

Are you REALLY going to act like this is the manga where we don't have stuff made with the mindset of "Vegeta don't need to shit ritual! He's got Whis for Blue!"? Because the intent of the F arc is clear: they want Vegeta to get to Blue power through training without needing the ritual to jump start him the way it does for Goku. This is also Dragon Ball Super, the show that loves bringing back obsolete forms that nobody in their right mind would use ever again, why's God the one that's suppoed to be exempt from this carnival of pointless uses? Why didn't he use it to smash Magetta? Or to take Hit off guard the way he does with Black in their second manga fight before flipping to Blue?

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

This is why I don't think Manga Vegeta bothered to learn Super Saiyan God until he realized it wasn't totally useless. It probably didn't take a lot of effort to learn, but it was still something he never knew the pros and cons of until observing Goku vs. Hit.

[LowRyder2005]

I don't like their explanation for it but I think KK coming back as a way to boost Goku would've been fine.... if they didn't push it to ten times. This means that Goku & Vegeta are, with regular Blue, over 10 times weaker then Beerus and probably a lot more. Goku & Vegeta might as well give up on every reaching him with that kind of gap, especially Vegeta who's about to get even more completely outclassed then he already is.

I see.

It's not just in BoG, even as late as this arc we've got stuff like Goku being able to fight an improved Fat Boo in Base and hold his own without needing to transform. Every subsequent arc has decreased just how much Goku's post God power is but the principle has remained: God went the away because it's power boosted Goku's other stuff up by a lot. Training has certainly helped him improve but what's the bloody point of the BoG arc & SSGod if it's power just entirely vanished after a single fight and Goku had to go from weaker then Namek Freeza to Fat Boo tier with his training under Whis.

Goku vs. Buu was a friendly spar in which there was no intent to kill for both, it really holds little weight if you compare it to when Goku is fighting seriously or has no real reason to restrain himself. As far as we know, Buu might have been the one to take it easy against a somewhat serious Goku.
This fits well with later feats in the same arc as well, since #18 plainly outperforms base Goku in what's arguably a circumstance in which Goku had literally no reason not to unleash his full power in base.

There are headscratchers or even absurd outliers that are a little harder to mesh together, sure (Piccolo <= SS2 Gohan < Base Goku and Base Goku vs. Piccolo's attack comes to mind), but I wouldn't really argue Goku's spar with Buu is one of them.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Ultimately, it'll be a few weeks before this SSG business can come under full scrutiny, and next week is looking to be mostly Gohan-centric.

The NEP has Gohan stating that the enemies he'll be facing have the perfect counters for his power, but he still states he'll unleash everything he has. From the sounds of it, as well as the few glimpses of footage we have, it looks as though it's more technique-based countering than power-based, though Ultimate Gohan does seem to receive a few blows from one of the Universe 10 fighters.

We'll also be seeing Piccolo fully fighting, so we may or may not get an idea of where he falls himself.

Episode 103 might settle the debate of where Piccolo and Gohan lie, or it may dance around it, or it may completely destabilize everything thus far, or it might just ignore that entirely for the sake of entertainment.

[gofishus]

It's been a while since I've done this. Now that we know there aren't two bases it was worth doing again. For now I have not taken any possible retcon into account, I just take it as it is.

Tier 0

Zeno | Future Zeno

Tier 1

Grand Priest
Vados
Whis

Tier 2

Jiren
Sword of Hope Trunks
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Champa
Fused Zamasu (Half Corrupted)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken | Toppo
Fused Zamasu (Halo)

Tier 3

Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan God Goku

Tier 4

Giant Bergamo
Ultimate Gohan
Android 17
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Zamasu

Tier 5

Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Caulifla | Cabba | Kale
Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Magetta
Frost (Final Form)
Kahseral

Tier 6

Goku | Vegeta | Frieza (Final Form)
Caulifla | Cabba | Bergamo
Future Trunks
Frost (Third Form)

Tier 7

Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Beerus (Under "10%")
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Piccolo
Frieza (First Form)
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
Super Saiyan Gohan

Tier 8

Gohan
Tagoma
Buu
Basil (Drug Enhanced)
Basil | Lavender
Super Saiyan Kid Trunks | Goten
Android 18

Tier 9

Kid Trunks | Goten
Krillin
Tien
Botamo

So that's it, Kale, Gohan and Android 17 are still a mystery. People might wonder why Base Goku and Base Gohan are so far apart, well it what the show kinda presented. Base Goku should be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks while Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was weaker than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu Arc. The doesn't really make sense I know but maybe it'll be clarified more in the future.

If there was a retcon and they did nerf Base Goku I'd still put him around Buu's level.

Otherwise for the most part I think it kinda works. I didn't bother including all the fodder in the Tournament, they'd mostly be in Tier 8 and 9 though.

Trunks is really overrated here I don't understand why people still rank Jiren when actually we don't know anything about him.

About Goku SSG, i think he wil use that form again because it requires less energy and stamina than SSB. Of course SSJB is more stronger.

I know right? So Trunks received some energy from his friends (not that there were many people left on that planet anyways) and all of a sudden he becomes stronger than SSJ Blue Vegito?? (keep in mind Vegito was the most powerful character in DBZ standalone) ? And stronger than BEERUS? so that means he could literally just pull that sword out of his ass and slice Beerus in half am I right?

[Bullza]

Are you REALLY going to act like this is the manga where we don't have stuff made with the mindset of "Vegeta don't need to shit ritual! He's got Whis for Blue!"? Because the intent of the F arc is clear: they want Vegeta to get to Blue power through training without needing the ritual to jump start him the way it does for Goku.

Well Vegeta didn't go through the ritual to become a Super Saiyan God. He learned how to become a Super Saiyan God on his own whilst in Whis' staff. That was where Goku also learned to become a Super Saiyan God on his own as said by King Kai.

He did just train to obtain those forms.

Now that we know that Super Saiyan God is still a thing then of course Vegeta could have always turned Super Saiyan God if he wanted to.

I know right? So Trunks received some energy from his friends (not that there were many people left on that planet anyways) and all of a sudden he becomes stronger than SSJ Blue Vegito??

Well he did carve Zamasu in half straight away and that was a guy who tanked a Final Kamehameha as though it was nothing.

[Loputousu]

Well he did carve Zamasu in half straight away and that was a guy who tanked a Final Kamehameha as though it was nothing.

And Krillin cut off Frieza's tail, so Namek Krillin >> Second Form Frieza.

[sintzu]

In the manga's 25th chapter, Goku says that the 2 fused Zamasus have the same power as before yet Vegeta was able to blow BOTH of them to bits. The only one who was able to toy with Zamasu was Vegetto so does that mean for a split second Vegeta was as strong as Vegetto ?

[Loputousu]

In the manga's 25th chapter, Goku says that the 2 fused Zamasus have the same power as before yet Vegeta was able to blow BOTH of them to bits. The only one who was able to toy with Zamasu was Vegetto so does that mean for a split second Vegeta was as strong as Vegetto ?

Incomplete SSB has a very quick and immense stamina drain. The advantage of completed SSB is that it allows one to access SSB's full power at all times, which was comparable to SSB Vegito, I guess. Incomplete SSB probably has the same power as a complete SSB for a few seconds or so, then it sharply drops.

[sintzu]

In the manga's 25th chapter, Goku says that the 2 fused Zamasus have the same power as before yet Vegeta was able to blow BOTH of them to bits. The only one who was able to toy with Zamasu was Vegetto so does that mean for a split second Vegeta was as strong as Vegetto ?

Incomplete SSB has a very quick and immense stamina drain. The advantage of completed SSB is that it allows one to access SSB's full power at all times, which was comparable to SSB Vegito, I guess. Incomplete SSB probably has the same power as a complete SSB for a few seconds or so, then it sharply drops.

It was nowhere near Vegetto's power. When Goku was a complete SsjB he was barely fighting eavenly with Zamasu while Vegetto completely destroyed him so if Vegeta was able to blow 2 of them to bits, does that mean he surpassed Goku and possibly Vegetto for a second ?

[Bullza]

And Krillin cut off Frieza's tail, so Namek Krillin >> Second Form Frieza.

Nothing alike, Krillin just used a cutting technique.

Trunks absorbed the power of the Spirit Bomb as well as Goku and Vegeta's powrr and used that power to form a Spirit Blade that allowed him to push back Merged Zamasu and completely shatter his own Ki sword which is made from an extension of his power.

If it wasn't a matter of power then Trunks wouldn't have failed miserably when he attacked a weaker Merged Zamasu with his sword. Also the yellow Ki sword would have done the job too.

[Helios518]

In the manga's 25th chapter, Goku says that the 2 fused Zamasus have the same power as before yet Vegeta was able to blow BOTH of them to bits. The only one who was able to toy with Zamasu was Vegetto so does that mean for a split second Vegeta was as strong as Vegetto ?

Incomplete SSB has a very quick and immense stamina drain. The advantage of completed SSB is that it allows one to access SSB's full power at all times, which was comparable to SSB Vegito, I guess. Incomplete SSB probably has the same power as a complete SSB for a few seconds or so, then it sharply drops.

It was nowhere near Vegetto's power. When Goku was a complete SsjB he was barely fighting eavenly with Zamasu while Vegetto completely destroyed him so if Vegeta was able to blow 2 of them to bits, does that mean he surpassed Goku and possibly Vegetto for a second ?

It's completely possible considering the previous time he raged, he gained a power up that put his SSJ2 above Ultimate Gohan.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

And Krillin cut off Frieza's tail, so Namek Krillin >> Second Form Frieza.

Nothing alike, Krillin just used a cutting technique.

Trunks absorbed the power of the Spirit Bomb as well as Goku and Vegeta's powrr and used that power to form a Spirit Blade that allowed him to push back Merged Zamasu and completely shatter his own Ki sword which is made from an extension of his power.

If it wasn't a matter of power then Trunks wouldn't have failed miserably when he attacked a weaker Merged Zamasu with his sword. Also the yellow Ki sword would have done the job too.

You gotta remember that it was a Genkidama shaped into a blade against a being arguably more evil than even Pure Buu. Even if it wasn't as powerful in terms of raw Genki as the one used against Pure Buu, its shape as a sword probably helped in how efficient it was.

Not to mention that Merged Zamasu's body was becoming more corrupted and unstable throughout the whole ordeal, and his growing hysteria and arrogance didn't help him in handling the situations he found himself in that well. All of these factors combined allowed Future Trunks to finally destroy Merged Zamasu's body, though by that point the exercise ultimately ended up futile anyways.