"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[MisteryOne]

Are you guys seriously debating if Roshi is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? Someone please tell me this is a joke or people are being sarcastic.

What is the problem? The power scale is so fucked up that we don't even know how strong the base saiyans are. Also, if SS2 Trunks was able to fight with SSB tier enemies, why can't Roshi be SS3 Gotenks tier as well?

Because Roshi hasn't beaten anyone that's SS3 Gotenks level of Power nor does he have any kind of feat that matches it. His feats include, Fighting Freeza soldiers, shutting down Tien, and kinda giving base Goku a fight, which even then I'm not sure about because nothing about that fight suggested Goku was being evenly matched. Goku was smiling and treating it like a game until he decides to finish it with a blast.

I'm aware of the big joke of "Super scaling is broken so anyone can beat anybody" But lets not be silly here. The scaling isn't air tight but, barring a few moments of ridiculousness , we have a good idea about who is stronger than who.

Yet Goku said he was fighting Roshi at full power? Even if their fight was brief, going by DB logic, if base Goku can oneshot SS3 Gotenks but not Roshi at full power, who is the stronger of the two? Why am I being silly? Why do feats matter anymore after SS Gohan vs SS Goku and the SS2 Trunks thing?

The problem is that is not a few moments or ridiculoness. The only way to make a logical scale from the anime version is to ignore a lot of things or subscribe to the two base theory (or the recton theory, that's personally my favourite). Enraged Vegeta was 10% of Beerus' full power, yet we had SSBKaioken who is weaker than Beerus, Base Vegeta oneshots SS3 Gotenks and when fighting Hop destroys the ground of the stage, yet later has problems with the Trio de Dangers while using SS (despite the fact that Basil was weaker than Buu and Buu<SS3 Gotenks), the Roshi issue, SS Goku who is supposed to have absorbed the power of a god and being uber powerful fighting on par with a rusty SS Gohan, Trunks slicing Merged Zamasu in half with just the boost from a few normal earthlings, a turtle and an adroid, SS2 Trunks being able to battle and hurt Future Zamasu, Base Goku being able to fight Beeerus, Mystic Gohan being hinted at being as strong as he was during the Boo saga yet being stronger than the SS Gohan who fought the "as strong as SSG" SS Goku... Even ignoring the whole SSG absortion thing, Base Goku fought Final From Frieza, so he should be leagues above SS Gohan, yet later the fight on par? To sum up, are these just few moments? Seriously? What am I supposed to believe? Only some of the writers of the staff? Hell, even Boo saga in the anime was less ridiculous that this, and they had Popo beating Goten and Trunks. Sometimes, like during the battle between Mystic Gohan and SS2 Goku, it seems like they are trying to fix the scale, but then they destroy it again.

How is the scale supposed to be? If I have to ignore previous stated facts or previous things that happened in tje show itself, we are not being silly or overreacting. This is how fucked Super's scale is. I for sure don't know who is stronger than who without using headcanons, so I'm glad you somehow do. Is Roshi weaker than SS3 Gotenks then? Why did Goku fought him at full power? Why did he turned SS against the Trio de Dangers is they are supposed to be weaker than Buu, and by extension Gotenks? What scene should I ignore and why should I ignore one at all? The fandom definetly overreacts a lot of things, myself included, but this time, hell no. Is not a meme than Super's scale, if it even existw, is ridiculous.

[Will]

What is the problem? The power scale is so fucked up that we don't even know how strong the base saiyans are. Also, if SS2 Trunks was able to fight with SSB tier enemies, why can't Roshi be SS3 Gotenks tier as well?

Because Roshi hasn't beaten anyone that's SS3 Gotenks level of Power nor does he have any kind of feat that matches it. His feats include, Fighting Freeza soldiers, shutting down Tien, and kinda giving base Goku a fight, which even then I'm not sure about because nothing about that fight suggested Goku was being evenly matched. Goku was smiling and treating it like a game until he decides to finish it with a blast.

I'm aware of the big joke of "Super scaling is broken so anyone can beat anybody" But lets not be silly here. The scaling isn't air tight but, barring a few moments of ridiculousness , we have a good idea about who is stronger than who.

Yet Goku said he was fighting Roshi at full power? Even if their fight was brief, going by DB logic, if base Goku can oneshot SS3 Gotenks but not Roshi at full power, who is the stronger of the two? Why am I being silly? Why do feats matter anymore after SS Gohan vs SS Goku and the SS2 Trunks thing?

Base Goku did one shot Roshi with a Kamehameha.

And Copy Vegeta didn't one shot Gotenks.

[MisteryOne]

Episode 104 preview image.

Goku looks absolutely fantastic! I love that aura for some reason, even if it's simple. Interesting to see that Hit has actually battle damage, Dyspo definetly has to be dangerous.

[MisteryOne]

Because Roshi hasn't beaten anyone that's SS3 Gotenks level of Power nor does he have any kind of feat that matches it. His feats include, Fighting Freeza soldiers, shutting down Tien, and kinda giving base Goku a fight, which even then I'm not sure about because nothing about that fight suggested Goku was being evenly matched. Goku was smiling and treating it like a game until he decides to finish it with a blast.

I'm aware of the big joke of "Super scaling is broken so anyone can beat anybody" But lets not be silly here. The scaling isn't air tight but, barring a few moments of ridiculousness , we have a good idea about who is stronger than who.

Yet Goku said he was fighting Roshi at full power? Even if their fight was brief, going by DB logic, if base Goku can oneshot SS3 Gotenks but not Roshi at full power, who is the stronger of the two? Why am I being silly? Why do feats matter anymore after SS Gohan vs SS Goku and the SS2 Trunks thing?

Base Goku did one shot Roshi with a Kamehameha.

And Copy Vegeta didn't one shot Gotenks.

Well, yeah, sorry. Vegeta didn't oneshot Gotenks. He still took zero damage from his attacks. And again, Goku was using his full power in base. Even if they were just punches, Roshi lasted way more than Gotenks. That's the point.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The anime is still miles more successful what are you on about?

Maybe they're thinking they can make th anime even more so by bringing in elements from the manga.

The way I see it. If it's half ass explained in then there definitely is an ulterior motive at play for bringing it back however if like Freeza's return it is handled competently then I'll have no problems with it. The Freeza thing was far more delicate and Toei handled that super well so I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt here and pretend for now they know what they're doing.

[alakazam^]

How is the scale supposed to be?

You can't mix things up. The BoG and F arc work with Toriyama's intent from the movies, from there onwards he seems to have changed his mind so you adjust accordingly and neither Goku nor Vegeeta have the power of God in base. Obviously, Toei's original episodes don't count.

Goku uses Blue to test the other team members and holds back accordingly. You can also disregard this as Toei wanting to include Blue. whatever, it doesn't matter in the big picture.

Beers is still ahead of Goku and Vegeeta.

There, it's not that complicated. Goku will explain God (yes, it will get an explanation just like Kaiouken got) in episode 104 so that might give us something to work with as well.

[TheMikado]

It's sad that this has become a show more about merchandizing and toy/videogames sales than storytelling. It's the only reason Super Saiyan God is back.

It wouldn't be so obvious if they just kept the form like the manga did.

I seem to recall him saying he didn't even think it should be called SSG or something like that.

He said he wasn't even going to give it a different design and just use Ssj1 for the whole fight but did so anyway. it could be why he had Goku use Ssj1 in the final fight of that movie instead of Ssjg as that was his plan for the whole fight but gave him red hair for part of it to show the massive power up.

OMG modern Dragonball has been a sh*tshow since it's inception. I knew in an interview that he wasn't sold on the whole SSG form but man.. I wish Toriyama had approached Toei with an original script instead of the other way around.

[sintzu]

OMG modern Dragonball has been a sh*tshow since it's inception.

I knew in an interview that he wasn't sold on the whole SSG form but man.. I wish Toriyama had approached Toei with an original script instead of the other way around.

I won't defend the anime cause it's been very hit and miss from the start but the movies and manga overall have done a good job at living up to what came before them (so far).

The only things he kept were the basic concepts of a destroyer and a Ssjg, everything else was re-written from the ground up.

[TheMikado]

How is the scale supposed to be?

You can't mix things up. The BoG and F arc work with Toriyama's intent from the movies, from there onwards he seems to have changed his mind so you adjust accordingly and neither Goku nor Vegeeta have the power of God in base. Obviously, Toei's original episodes don't count.

Goku uses Blue to test the other team members and holds back accordingly. You can also disregard this as Toei wanting to include Blue. whatever, it doesn't matter in the big picture.

Beers is still ahead of Goku and Vegeeta.

There, it's not that complicated. Goku will explain God (yes, it will get an explanation just like Kaiouken got) in episode 104 so that might give us something to work with as well.

Dragonball Super has been a Toei invention from the very beginning. The concept of God forms 100% belongs to Toei. Dragonball Super belongs to Toei and everything in it. Thus nothing can be disregarded. You want Dragonball content without "filler" and Toei's influence? Read the manga. You can't separate Toei from Toriyama in the anime because none of use know if he wrote those "filler" parts we can only guess. Unless you have a copy of the outlines.

[sintzu]

You want Dragonball content without "filler" and Toei's influence ? Read the manga.

Do you mean Super's manga or the original ? although Super's manga isn't completely by Toriyama, it has way less hands messing with it than the anime does, it's just him and Toyotarou which has lead to a higher quality product.

[TheMikado]

OMG modern Dragonball has been a sh*tshow since it's inception.

I knew in an interview that he wasn't sold on the whole SSG form but man.. I wish Toriyama had approached Toei with an original script instead of the other way around.

I won't defend the anime cause it's been very hit and miss from the start but the movies and manga overall have done a good job at living up to what came before them (so far).

The only things he kept were the basic concepts of a destroyer and a Ssjg, everything else was re-written from the ground up.

I do like the BoG movie but I felt the same way about the "God" forms as Toriyama. They didn't feel organic and not something he would have conceptualized based on his style. It always struck me as a blantant grab at the shonen "God" form craze the anime like fairy tail do and I'm glad to know Toriyama feels the same about the God forms.

It's just disheartening to know the only Dragonball we have now is something that wasn't 100% what he wanted to present. Him not liking the form, one of my personal gripes as well, makes me wish he never agreed to keep the concept at all.

[TheMikado]

You want Dragonball content without "filler" and Toei's influence ? Read the manga.

Do you mean Super's manga or the original ? although Super's manga isn't completely by Toriyama, it has way less hands messing with it than the anime does, it's just him and Toyotarou which has lead to a higher quality product.

The Super manga, his idea that parts of Super can be ignored based on not being part of the outline aren't really valid sense we don't know what was written. I'm just saying if he wants the story without whatever he perceives to be "filler" and from Toei he should read the manga since Toei isn't involved in its production.

[sintzu]

It's just disheartening to know the only Dragonball we have now is something that wasn't 100% what he wanted to present.

If he didn't like it he wouldn't have kept it post BOG but not only did he keep it in the manga (and now anime), he came up with 2 different god form, Blue and Rose.

With him not writing a weekly or monthly manga by himself, we were never going to get something that 100% represented what he wanted but at least we have something close with Toyotarou's manga.

[TheMikado]

It's just disheartening to know the only Dragonball we have now is something that wasn't 100% what he wanted to present.

If he didn't like it he wouldn't have kept it post BOG but not only did he keep it in the manga (and now anime), he came up with 2 different god form, Blue and Rose.

With him not writing a weekly or monthly manga by himself, we were never going to get something that 100% represented what he wanted but at least we have something close with Toyotarou's manga.

But he didn't keep SSG. We got SSB instead. I have no idea if it was his idea to bring back SSG or not but I think it's pretty telling that RoF seems to have Saiyan beyond God which is basically a super strong base Goku with aura. He even had Vegeta skip SSG so he couldn't have been that fond of it.

[JazzMazz]

Goku using SSB against everyone and their mother but a weaker form against someone who gives trouble to Hit?

Bullshit it SSG is stronger now for reasons...

His over-use of the form has really de-valued it. I wouldn't be surprised if they did make SSG stronger(though it would be retarded). This series has demonstrated Goku's sense of occasion by literally having him use it when it would have been just as effective to go SS or any other SS form beyond that.

SSGSS will still be stronger, I don't why it is even being brought up. SSG isn't even in the OP and all the marketing for Goku vs Jiren as been SSGSS Goku.
Goku has access to the SSSGS form so why not use it? Why hide it? Did the original SS become de-valued in the Cell Saga when Goku literally used it as base?

The why is very simple, it's supposed to be a form that uses immense amounts of stamina so using it all the time is a tiresome thing to do(although I think it's bullshit since we've never seen the Saiyans be drained just from using the transformation). In the Cell arc, Goku mastering SS was a major plot point, and he only revealed it's true power in the Cell fight. In Super, Goku seems to be using ridicolous amounts of power for stupid situations, and then uses not enough power for situations that actually warrant it.

My problem with Goku's use of SSB in this arc, is in some ways comparable with my problem with Dyspo one-sidedly beating the crap out of Hit, how they are displayed in the show mis-leads the audience to believe that they are completely impotent and are of no consequence.

[Draconic]

I like that shot for 104, but God Goku's clothes should be a lighter shade than they normally are. Also, I'm quite fond of the more reddish skin the form had in the BoG arc, but they seem to have toned it down to how it was in the movie... Not a big deal. Also, there's not much difference between the body type and how Goku is usually drawn. I mean, he is skinnier, but barely. Well, as long as before the transformation he is drawn a bit more bulky to make the difference more obvious, I'm fine with it.

Hit looks damaged but not really hurt. I imagine Dyspo gave him trouble trough countering the Time Skip and that took him by surprise, getting a little overwhelmed. I think he could still win even so, but throwing Goku in should work.

I really want God to be explained well, cause I love the form and the episode will probably be very hype, but I'm not going to take the return of it lightly.

[sintzu]

He even had Vegeta skip SSG so he couldn't have been that fond of it.

In the movie no one was surprised to see Vegeta transform into Blue and in the manga he used SsjG so what most likely happened is that in the manga and movies' continuity, Vegeta did the ritual before going to train with Goku (unlike the anime, the movie stated that going was Goku's idea) and Whis.

We know Toyotarou works closely with Toriyama so if he didn't like the red form he would've told Toyotarou to forget about it.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

He even had Vegeta skip SSG so he couldn't have been that fond of it.

In the movie no one was surprised to see Vegeta transform into Blue and in the manga he used SsjG so what most likely happened is that in the manga and movies' continuity, Vegeta did the ritual before going to train with Goku (unlike the anime, the movie stated that going was Goku's idea) and Whis.

We know Toyotarou works closely with Toriyama so if he didn't like the red form he would've told Toyotarou to forget about it.

Toriyama has said he isn't the type of person to be bothered by people changing his work. He's obviously letting Toei and Toyo do what they want. Which is why people saying things like the Manga is closer to his intentions is absurd.

[sintzu]

People saying things like the Manga is closer to his intentions is absurd.

It makes sense when you take into account only one person is writing the manga while multiple are doing the anime, In the manga we just have Toyotarou's take on things while in the anime we have multiple writers' take so of ourse the manga will end up being closer due to less people having their influince on it.

The only thing that'll give us Toriyama's real intention are his notes or script but until then we'll have to make due with the manga.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

People saying things like the Manga is closer to his intentions is absurd.

It makes sense when you take into account only one person is writing the manga while multiple are doing the anime, In the manga we just have Toyotarou's take on things while in the anime we have multiple writers' take so of ourse the manga will end up being closer due to less people having their influince on it.

The only thing that'll give us Toriyama's real intention are his notes or script but until then we'll have to make due with the manga.

No until then we have to make due with the fact that the anime and manga are Toei and Toyo solely.