Zamasu55 wrote:Yet again, power levels in the manga are perfectly fine, unlike the completely mess the anime is. I repeat, it's fantastic.
So you forgot about SSJ2 Vegeta vs. SSJ Black? How amusing
I didn't forget at all.
Ssj2 Vegeta was always stronger than Ssj3 Goku, since BOG.
You know it makes no sense unless SSJ2 Vegeta is more than 50x stronger than SSJ3 Goku? Base Goku Black was more powerful than SSJ2 Trunks, who was as strong as SSJ3 Goku. Vegeta almost killed SSJ Black if Zamasu didn't save Black.
Do we also have to talk about Merged Zamasu repeatedly punching and kicking base Goku and Vegeta without killing them? The manga's powerscaling isn't perfect either so stop acting like it is.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return
Additional lore from Toriyama
Dragon Ball Daima
I don't think anyone can really disagree in good conscience when someone argues SS Black vs. SS2 Vegeta is a headscratcher; if we're to be completely honest, however, I'd also say we don't really know if Black's Super Saiyan is supposed to work the same as usual (for starters, it may be argued he's not a bona fide Saiyan, and I vaguely remember some shenanigans like his cells overwriting Goku's little by little).
For instance, he also remarks at some point that he was in dismay because he couldn't use the transformation like he really wanted to. I'm really inclined to think that the strength of Black's base/ Super Saiyan/ Rosé may have been intended to follow their little own set of rules, and not the static multipliers most of us envision. In other words, I can't really picture Toyotaro as someone who'd have Super Saiyan 2 sneeze Super Saiyan 3 Goku to death. To put this in numbers:
A better question would be: does Vegeta possess a higher Super Saiyan 2 multiplier now? Otherwise his base form would still need to be considerably stronger than Goku's, even if not *dozens* of times, and yet in the current arc it looks like Goku's supposed to still be ahead of him (mastered or non-mastered Blue). I think the fight is first and foremost supposed to follow up the power hierarchy established in BOG - in which Vegeta performs better than Super Saiyan 3 Goku - but the "why" and "how" remain a mistery.
Regarding punching and kicking the base form... I think it as not intrinsically different than what happened in the end of the original with Kid Buu smashing base Vegeta's face in; I honestly think the only time in the whole manga someone punched the other's limbs away with a single punch kick and a 50-ish % gap was Tien vs. Nappa. As long as the adversary is in complete control and/or it can be inferred they're off-guard and/or not taking it seriously, it doesn't really break the narrative for me. I mean, Piccolo was about 2% of Freeza's strength and still he could kick him away for a brief second when the latter was focused on Goku; while it might be very easy to confuse the two, CIS and "bad power scaling" do not necessarily converge.
emperior wrote:The manga's powerscaling isn't perfect either so stop acting like it is.
It's not, but SS2 Vegeta vs. SS Black is really the only truly questionable instance of the manga's power scaling that I can recall. You can sort of chalk that up to being a result of Vegeta's rage boost from BoG (perhaps something that works similarly to Trunks' powered-up Super Saiyan 2 as well) but I'll freely admit it's not an easy pill to swallow.
I think that, for the most part, the manga's scaling has been perfectly digestable. If there's one thing Toyotaro excels in as a writer, it's making it absolutely clear to the reader where characters stand in relation to each other. Even in the latest chapter we get the sense that Goku and Vegeta are closer to Beerus' level than before to the extent that they could be considered GoD candidates for other Universes, a topic that the anime broached only through more indirect means.
Noah wrote:
So you forgot about SSJ2 Vegeta vs. SSJ Black? How amusing :lol:
I didn't forget at all.
Ssj2 Vegeta was always stronger than Ssj3 Goku, since BOG.
You know it makes no sense unless SSJ2 Vegeta is more than 50x stronger than SSJ3 Goku? Base Goku Black was more powerful than SSJ2 Trunks, who was as strong as SSJ3 Goku. Vegeta almost killed SSJ Black if Zamasu didn't save Black.
Do we also have to talk about Merged Zamasu repeatedly punching and kicking base Goku and Vegeta without killing them? The manga's powerscaling isn't perfect either so stop acting like it is.
are we talking manga or anime black? In the manga he's a ssj2, i went back and looked at that fight and he had lightning in 90% of his panels
jplaya2023 wrote:
are we talking manga or anime black? In the manga he's a ssj2, i went back and looked at that fight and he had lightning in 90% of his panels
And the hair was always SSJ1 style. You can't assume things based solely on one thing like the lightning, since even if it is Goku's body, it's not Goku.
jplaya2023 wrote:
are we talking manga or anime black? In the manga he's a ssj2, i went back and looked at that fight and he had lightning in 90% of his panels
And the hair was always SSJ1 style. You can't assume things based solely on one thing like the lightning, since even if it is Goku's body, it's not Goku.
well you have to remember that zamazu in goku's body so the hair is "different" but i do think that's SSJ2 just based on what we know ssj2 to be.
If you think that's ssj1 then you have to explain this chain
ssj2 vegeta >> ssj1 goku black >>> ssj2 trunks = ssj3 goku
jplaya2023 wrote:
are we talking manga or anime black? In the manga he's a ssj2, i went back and looked at that fight and he had lightning in 90% of his panels
And the hair was always SSJ1 style. You can't assume things based solely on one thing like the lightning, since even if it is Goku's body, it's not Goku.
well you have to remember that zamazu in goku's body so the hair is "different" but i do think that's SSJ2 just based on what we know ssj2 to be.
If you think that's ssj1 then you have to explain this chain
ssj2 vegeta >> ssj1 goku black >>> ssj2 trunks = ssj3 goku
What a nonsense. Vegetto also had lighting, he was still a SS1. Toriyama's notes mentions that Black can go SS and not SS2. Zamasu himself called Black's form normal Super Saiyan.
Whats up with the chain? If you think he is a SS2 is even worse. Not to mention that Vegeta was never superior to Black until he turned Blue. Once Black went all out, he was able to fight SSB Vegeta without being completely destroyed, and after his Zenkai he was even able to have a good fight with him.
English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.
Noah wrote:
So you forgot about SSJ2 Vegeta vs. SSJ Black? How amusing
I didn't forget at all.
Ssj2 Vegeta was always stronger than Ssj3 Goku, since BOG.
You know it makes no sense unless SSJ2 Vegeta is more than 50x stronger than SSJ3 Goku? Base Goku Black was more powerful than SSJ2 Trunks, who was as strong as SSJ3 Goku. Vegeta almost killed SSJ Black if Zamasu didn't save Black.
Do we also have to talk about Merged Zamasu repeatedly punching and kicking base Goku and Vegeta without killing them? The manga's powerscaling isn't perfect either so stop acting like it is.
Vegeta only almost killed Black when he went SSB, in SS2 he showed to have the advantage, just that.
I agree the manga power scaling isn't perfect, but it really had more consistency than the anime.
mute_proxy wrote:
And the hair was always SSJ1 style. You can't assume things based solely on one thing like the lightning, since even if it is Goku's body, it's not Goku.
well you have to remember that zamazu in goku's body so the hair is "different" but i do think that's SSJ2 just based on what we know ssj2 to be.
If you think that's ssj1 then you have to explain this chain
ssj2 vegeta >> ssj1 goku black >>> ssj2 trunks = ssj3 goku
:cry: :oops: :crazy:
What a nonsense. Vegetto also had lighting, he was still a SS1. Toriyama's notes mentions that Black can go SS and not SS2. Zamasu himself called Black's form normal Super Saiyan.
Whats up with the chain? If you think he is a SS2 is even worse. Not to mention that Vegeta was never superior to Black until he turned Blue. Once Black went all out, he was able to fight SSB Vegeta without being completely destroyed, and after his Zenkai he was even able to have a good fight with him.
vegetto had lightning for a single panel. Black had lightning for multiple panels. It's not out of the realm for him to be ssj2. Also was does zamazu know about ssj forms? I wouldn't take his words for anything. Like i said it's probable he could've been ssj2 by the way he was drawn
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Kishido wrote:I just want to point out that Vegeta is a liar.
Talks abotu gaining everything Goku has... But what about SSJ3 my boy? Till now you haven't showed it.
His power has far surpassed what's required for Ssj3 and if Ssj3 is just a powered up version of Ssj1 like what Toriyama said then at this point he can just power up to it if he wanted.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
The fight with Beerus is pretty bad, but I like what Toyo was going for with it. A quick easy way to establish where the Saiyans stand against a God of Destruction, while having Vegeta catch up with Goku in a belivable context. Not much else to say without translations, but looks like a good opening.
[/spoiler]
