Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[JazzMazz]

He's one third of "maybe he's just that powerful or maybe not" trio of this arc (with Kale and #17). I'm waiting for a more consistent showcase than a punch on Blue and statements more concrete than the narrator's possible implications myself.

Narratively speaking, I think there's a very decent chance he's still supposed to "functionally" be the same Ultimate Gohan we saw in the Buu arc, regardless of how inconsistent some of his visual feats may appear when compared with older stuff (like SS3 Goku vs. Beerus). His power-up personally strikes me as way, way too huge not to be addressed as more than a simple "he got his Ultimate power back and fights super seriously", which is really all that's acknowledged about this arc's Gohan.

They did sort of address it. At the end of the episode where Gohan got his Ultimate form back, Piccolo says he thinks that's not the full extent of Gohan's power and asks him to continue training until the tournament starts to bring it out. Then at the beginning of the episode where he fights Goku Piccolo says they're done training.

True, but like I said it's still kind of ambiguous to me. It could also refer to Gohan still being in the process to reach his Buu saga's apex, bring it beyond, or well, well beyond. There's honestly enough room to place Gohan anywhere from "slightly stronger than his Buu arc self" to "equal or "somewhat stronger than SSB Goku".

To be completely honest, I'm even remotely considering the option that they might be treating Ultimate Gohan and the upper echelons of the Buu arc might as overall, closer to SSG than what we all thought than what originally intended (same goes for the "probably-pre-retcon" base Goku/ Vegeta). Still not free of many potentially egregious contradictions.

Once Goku goes SSB, Gohan repeatedly states that he wants his dad to see his full power and seems to just power up further, which is when we see him exchanging blows with SSB Goku. Now, this isn't entirely conclusive evidence, but it at least seems to imply that Ultimate Gohan has become stronger than ever.

Gohan is almost assuredly stronger than ever; that much can be accepted as a premise since he's basically advertised as such verbatim ("Gohan is back, stronger than ever"). The question really boils to "how much"; in the episode there's nothing really worthwhile as far as statements goes, since Gohan is also almost certainly holding back against SS2 Goku through very basic power scaling related notion (Ultimate being officially a stronger multiplier of SS3 is one).
Again, the best bet to get a slightly better grasp of where the writers think he stands is to wait for the moment he comes face to face with someone like Hit, Dyspo or even Toppo.

There is nothing that suggests that Ultimate is multiplier, it's simply Gohan reaching certain level of power. As for him fighting SS2 Goku, he was a fair bit stronger and definitely had the upper-hand, he also stated he was using his full-power during that fight. I don't think he was holding back that much, because otherwise he would have dominated SS2 Goku, instead of trading blows with him and taking damage during that fight.

[LowRyder2005]

They did sort of address it. At the end of the episode where Gohan got his Ultimate form back, Piccolo says he thinks that's not the full extent of Gohan's power and asks him to continue training until the tournament starts to bring it out. Then at the beginning of the episode where he fights Goku Piccolo says they're done training.

True, but like I said it's still kind of ambiguous to me. It could also refer to Gohan still being in the process to reach his Buu saga's apex, bring it beyond, or well, well beyond. There's honestly enough room to place Gohan anywhere from "slightly stronger than his Buu arc self" to "equal or "somewhat stronger than SSB Goku".

To be completely honest, I'm even remotely considering the option that they might be treating Ultimate Gohan and the upper echelons of the Buu arc might as overall, closer to SSG than what we all thought than what originally intended (same goes for the "probably-pre-retcon" base Goku/ Vegeta). Still not free of many potentially egregious contradictions.

Once Goku goes SSB, Gohan repeatedly states that he wants his dad to see his full power and seems to just power up further, which is when we see him exchanging blows with SSB Goku. Now, this isn't entirely conclusive evidence, but it at least seems to imply that Ultimate Gohan has become stronger than ever.

Gohan is almost assuredly stronger than ever; that much can be accepted as a premise since he's basically advertised as such verbatim ("Gohan is back, stronger than ever"). The question really boils to "how much"; in the episode there's nothing really worthwhile as far as statements goes, since Gohan is also almost certainly holding back against SS2 Goku through very basic power scaling related notion (Ultimate being officially a stronger multiplier of SS3 is one).
Again, the best bet to get a slightly better grasp of where the writers think he stands is to wait for the moment he comes face to face with someone like Hit, Dyspo or even Toppo.

There is nothing that suggests that Ultimate is multiplier, it's simply Gohan reaching certain level of power. As for him fighting SS2 Goku, he was a fair bit stronger and definitely had the upper-hand, he was also stated he was using his full-power during that fight. I don't think he was holding back that much, because otherwise he would have dominated SS2 Goku, instead of trading blows with him and taking damage during that fight.

I used "multiplier" in reference to the Son Goku Densetsu guide stating Ultimate Gohan possessed power "far more stupendous than a Super Saiyan 3's".

Strictly speaking, there's nothing conclusive about it multiplying the level of someone or acting as a fixed threshold of power; the wording of the guide does kind of suggest that someone going Ultimate will make the person stronger than going Super Saiyan 3 as a general rule-of-thumb -- which would technically make "Ultimate" a multiplier (i.e. if Ultimate is a fixed value of 500 you could increase your base strength from 1 to 2 and be stronger in SS3).

Regarding Goku vs. Gohan, some people intepret Gohan saying "see my full strength" as Gohan powering up further. After the latest episodes, I have Goku weaker in base than #18, who is at most sligthly above her usual strength; hence in my numbers SS2 Goku would barely faze a serious Ultimate Gohan.
Going off this particular premise I ended up, in turn, rationalizing a little more feasibly Gohan going easy because he didn't want to weaken his father too much and waiting for Goku to step up his game. I originally had SS2 Goku and Gohan pretty close, just like you. There's still room for many other theories, though, given how vague the entire thing is.

[Marlowe89]

At the very least, the current Ultimate Gohan should be noticeably stronger than he was during Z's Buu arc if we take Piccolo's statements into account, thanks to Piccolo's training. The writers (Toriyama included) probably intended both Gohan and 17 to be higher than any level of power we've seen from Z, excluding maybe Super Vegito who could still be stronger. I don't personally think it makes a ton of sense that 17 would be up there, but it is what it is.

I'm not quite convinced that these two characters are God level yet, but there's a fairly decent possibility.

[Username2016]

I don't personally think it makes a ton of sense that 17 would be up there, but it is what it is.

It does makes sense considering he said he's been training (or to be more specific he said he wasn't sitting around relaxing) Plus the fact that he frequently fights of hunters to protect the animals. 17 was already the top shit back in the Andriod arc (he was stronger than SSJ1 Vegeta). No doubt that if Andriod has been pushing himself since the time skip he would've been at SSJ2 or maybe an SSJ2.5 level at max

[lord turbo]

I agree, but the fighters from universe 7 were still able to have some idea of how powerful the opponent they were up against was, they could tell when their opponent was hiding power and realistically could determine their chance of winning before the battle even begun. The Trio De Danger, had no sense of how powerful their opponents were and constantly over-estimated their own power.

That's not really true and literally no different than characters who can't sense ki (Buu, Captain Ginyu, Freeza (Pre-Super), Vegeta (Pre-Namek), amd 17/18 have already done, like, literally the same.

Also, I think there were way to many factors to be considered in the Gohan vs Lavender fight for it to be a good measurement of an SS boost.
-Gohan was in a constantly deteriorating condition.

Gohan didn't start to deteriorated constantly and quickly until after he used SSJ, even before poison and post-poison he shows no particular advantage over Basil in his base form. If SSJ was a 50x or even 2x he would have crushed Basil instantly, not draw even (regardless which form he's in).

-His SS form was being used in a way that didn't allow him to use his full-power in the fight, as energy was being expended by using it as a radar.

There was nothing preventing Gohan from using his full power in that fight, he's was using his SSJ aura as a radar, basically a sense of touch, and since Gohan knows he's poisoned and trying to end the fight as quickly as possible before succumbing to it he would use full power right off the bat and try to put Basil down as quickly as possible.

-His base was already heavily-heavily damaged and he couldn't fight back in his base form after a point.

He was actually doing decent against Basil in his base form while blind, Basil had to attack from a distance to gain any kind of advantage, that's when Gohan used SSJ as a radar.

Sorry for this being a bit pedantic, but I don't think that fight was a good indicator for SS.

All I'm saying is that Basil was barely base saiyan level, whether Gohan was poisoned or not. If SSJ was any kind of big boost over base Gohan should have instantly floored Basil with superior power/strength, but his strength was pretty much similar to what it was before. SSJ is described as a small/slight boost in this fight and is shown just as that. Same thing happened with Beerus which is why I was saying the boost for the SSJ transformations are plot-related, based entirely on what the author(s) want to convey at that giving moment. Its basically a case of "its as strong as the story requires it to be basically." I'm not saying SSJ can't be a huge increase, I'm just saying on the flip side it can also only be a small increase as well.

Your forgetting when Whis informed Beerus in episode 3 that the SS form increased a saiyans strength several fold. Maybe that could provide some of the reasoning behind Beerus saying it was a slight boost but I think that just me.

I went back and checked and unless the translation is off Whis just mentions its multiply their power in general. Multiply is a very broad and vague non-descriptive term that can mean anything and breaks nothing of what was said later on. Its funny, people are quick to use Beerus's statement of Freeza > base saiyans as proof and author intent, but don't do the same for his other statements if it clashes with their own personal thoughts such as SSJ being a small/slight boost (Something said more than once in other instances and shown just the same)

Overall, though there are statements that suggest SS has a huge boost, what is acutally shown on screen tells us a very different story, and more aligns with the idea of it being a slight boost.

Just one and that's in reference to SSJ2, but like you said, what's actually shown contradicts what is said. You can't have a roughly decently fight with someone in base, turn SSJ and continue the fight slightly different than before and pretend its a huge increase, that's the opposite of huge.

[ekrolo2]

So, how does Rose function between the anime and the manga? The anime seems to imply that it's Black's version of regular SS that's changed because Zamasu is in Goku's body. The manga either has them be two completely different forms or even in the manga, Black was supposed to have only Rose but he needed to "evolve" his SS into it?

Also, was it confirmed that Toriyama gave Black SS AND Rose?

[Alruneia]

So, how does Rose function between the anime and the manga? The anime seems to imply that it's Black's version of regular SS that's changed because Zamasu is in Goku's body. The manga either has them be two completely different forms or even in the manga, Black was supposed to have only Rose but he needed to "evolve" his SS into it?

Also, was it confirmed that Toriyama gave Black SS AND Rose?

Toriyama gave Black both regular Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Rosé, as detailed in his design. Herms translated that, if I recall, but we're talking several months back and I don't know exactly where to find it.
The manga says that Blue and Rosé are both SSGSS, the difference being that the soul of a mortal NINGEN turns SSGSS blue, while the soul of a god turns it rose. As far as the anime goes, that's not as clear cut iirc.

[Lord Beerus]

- Dyspo, using his incredible speed, is able to counter Hit's Time Skip. Hit figures out that Dyspo moves super-fast the moment before Hit time skips. He can momentarily become thousands of times faster. Dyspo basically is doing what The Flash does... using his insane speed to overwhelm Hit and speed blitz him with attacks. Dyspo was actually movie so fast that Omni-King didn't see him attack.
- Hit still can't dodge Dyspo because he needs to prep a bit before using Time-Skip. So he just starts fighting Dyspo hand-to-hand. And... Hit actually loses quite badly. But that's only because another Pride Trooper restrained Hit so he couldn't fight back properly.
- Looks like Dyspo, in terms of raw power, is at very least on equal footing with Hit. If not a few notches stronger
- Dyspo sends SSJG flying with a single attack Goku
- According to Beerus and Whis, SSJ God is faster than regular Super Saiyan but uses less energy than SSJB
- Goku can alternate between SSJG and SSJB
- Hit hits Dyspo by pretending to start doing Time-Skip, then switching to another attack midway through. This allows Hit to catch out Dyspo when he's using his super speed to try to counter and attack Hit. This lead to Hit to beating the crap out of Dyspo when he uses his Time-Skip for real.

[ZombieVito]

Please tell me that shit was explained...

[Loputousu]

So.. Aragney > Dyspo > Hit. Lol

[Lord Beerus]

Please tell me that shit was explained...

As far as I know... it wasn't. Goku just turned SSJG, saved Hit, and then Beerus and Whis explain that SSJG is faster than regular Super Saiyan but uses less energy than SSJB. Then we see Goku alternate between SSJG and SSJB. Hopefully the English subs will pick up something that was missed. But as far as I know, it hasn't been explained. And shit just may have gotten even more confusing.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

So.. Aragney > Dyspo > Hit. Lol

The end of the episode says otherwise. Dyspo turned into Vegeta 2.0 at the end of his fight against Hit.

[perucho1990]

SSJG= SSJB in terms of raw strength.

[Loputousu]

So.. Aragney > Dyspo > Hit. Lol

The end of the episode says otherwise. Dyspo turned into Vegeta 2.0 at the end of his fight against Hit.

Ok, but unless the fight with Aragney is not canon then we have a huge problem on our hands. How is a random fodder above SSG level?

[ZombieVito]

Please tell me that shit was explained...

As far as I know... it wasn't. Goku just turned SSJG, saved Hit, and then Beerus and Whis explain that SSJG is faster than regular Super Saiyan but uses less energy than SSJB. Then we see Goku alternate between SSJG and SSJB. Hopefully the English subs will pick up something that was missed. But as far as I know, it hasn't been explained. And shit just may have gotten even more confusing.

I honestly think that the power scale is beyond fucked now and the thread should be closed.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Please tell me that shit was explained...

As far as I know... it wasn't. Goku just turned SSJG, saved Hit, and then Beerus and Whis explain that SSJG is faster than regular Super Saiyan but uses less energy than SSJB. Then we see Goku alternate between SSJG and SSJB. Hopefully the English subs will pick up something that was missed. But as far as I know, it hasn't been explained. And shit just may have gotten even more confusing.

I honestly think that the power scale is beyond fucked now and the thread should be close.

The power scale became beyond fucked the moment that Gohan reached SSB level after training with Piccolo for a few hours.

[Krillin1994]

So.. Aragney > Dyspo > Hit. Lol

The end of the episode says otherwise. Dyspo turned into Vegeta 2.0 at the end of his fight against Hit.

Ok, but unless the fight with Aragney is not canon then we have a huge problem on our hands. How is a random fodder above SSG level?[/quote

Just wait until the upcoming Super special focuses on Aragney and his history with the pride troopers.......

[Hakaishin Liquir]

The end of the episode says otherwise. Dyspo turned into Vegeta 2.0 at the end of his fight against Hit.

Ok, but unless the fight with Aragney is not canon then we have a huge problem on our hands. How is a random fodder above SSG level?[/quote

Just wait until the upcoming Super special focuses on Aragney and his history with the pride troopers.......

Dyspo was caught off-guard by Aragney, though Aragney did still receive a better portrayal than the 7 Jobber Troopers tbh.

[Zamasu55]

Dyspo's at least Future Zamasu tier.

[Hugo Boss]

So, basically Goku did what Vegeta did in the manga. And it seems Dyspo is stronger than SSG and weaker than Hit when he fights seriously.