Vegeta (ending of mangas, dbz)

[kaioken12]

Hi,

lets say that I don't consider GT canon (like DB, DBZ which were based on the manga) or that I just talk about the manga.

What do you say to the following thoughts:
At the end of the fight with Kid Buu, Vegeta and Goku are healed (perhaps getting stronger because of that).
Then 10 years pass and we don't see anyone of the two transform anymore - the story ends.

Would it be completely absurd to assume that Vegeta reached SSJ3 by that time?

I mean, it has been 10 years of training and he saw how to go SSJ3 when Goku fought Kid Buu (Trunks/Goten learned by watching how to do it and could do it as Gotenks - because Gotenks was strong enough).

So, I am thinking about that.
Would it be completely impossible that Vegeta learned how to go SSJ3, then?
I mean, he always was one or two steps behind Goku, but 10 years are not a short time if he trains nearly every day.

What do you think about that?

[TripleRach]

I think it's entirely plausible. The only reason he might not have would be because he had calmed down and mostly given up on his obsession with surpassing Gokuu. But then again, Gokuu being dead didn't stop him from continuing to train and reaching SSJ2 in that interval. (Well, the SSJ2 thing is arguable, but there's enough evidence in the story to convince me, at least, that he did.)

So yeah, totally plausible.

[Godo]

I think it's entirely plausible. The only reason he might not have would be because he had calmed down and mostly given up on his obsession with surpassing Gokuu. But then again, Gokuu being dead didn't stop him from continuing to train and reaching SSJ2 in that interval. (Well, the SSJ2 thing is arguable, but there's enough evidence in the story to convince me, at least, that he did.)

So yeah, totally plausible.

Yeah, Vegeta finally understands in the ultimate fight with Buu why Goku is stronger, and why he is always a step ahead, so by having cracked the code, he may have a great chance to go SSJ3.
Remember, Goku still lived, and the chance of him and Vegeta having another battle was still there.

[gohanku]

But still, I think he can't. Didn't Goku have to train very hard even in death (which training is is much more effective than training in Earth) to get there? Is 10 years of Earth training good enough? And that SSJ3 was very hard on the living body? If Vegeta ever reach it, can he like ever keep up on it?

[kaioken12]

But still, I think he can't. Didn't Goku have to train very hard even in death (which training is is much more effective than training in Earth) to get there? Is 10 years of Earth training good enough? And that SSJ3 was very hard on the living body? If Vegeta ever reach it, can he like ever keep up on it?

Yeah, that was what I asked myself first, too.
But then again, Gotenks got it done in a few days in this time and soul room.
Vegeta on the other hand, now with just the motivation of getting stronger (not to defeat Goku whatever it takes) could train every day (at least nearly every day) with his gravity machine running.

I mean, okay, seven years with unlimited energy like Goku had (being dead) is an effective way to train, but on the other hand Vegeta trained on earth during these years and was either SSJ2 or nearly SSJ2 (depends on how you think about the evidences given in the manga).
Then, Goku was stronger of course.
But after that fight with Buu (being healed by Dende after that beating up) and then 10 years of training could be enough to get it done.

I mean, he would have needed 17 years for what Goku did in 7.
(Of course there is a good chance that Goku who got stronger as well in these 10 years was still better than Vegeta.)

Anyway, it's good to see that I am not the only one who thinks it could be possible in some way^^

By the way: a thought came to my mind which I had when watched GT - even if I don't count it as canon, I still watched it to decide if I liked it - I still was surprised that 10 years later (20 years after Kid Buu) Vegeta still was SSJ2 at best...
This seemed kind of bizarre, as 20 years are really much time to train...

[Godo]

The funny thing though, is that the only different thing between Goku and Vegeta was that Goku had SSJ3 (I go for that Vegeta was SSJ2 already, because when someone is stronger than him, he gets really irritated, like when Gohan goes SSJ2, he grinds his teeth).
Sure, Goku was a tad stronger, but we can assume it's because of that he was stronger in Cell's tournament. From there on, their powerlevel wen't evenly up in percent, leaving Goku only a tad stronger.
Vegeta, leaving SSJ3 aside, made greater improvements than Goku did in gaining enough power to be near Goku's level.

The only pros in training in heaven was that Goku's body didn't age (which isnt that big of a deal for a Saiyan, since they don't age quickly at all), and that Goku had infinite ki to that he could have maintained the SSJ3 state.

We can assume that Vegeta, in those seven years, got pretty good friends with the Earth folks as he started to love the planet, and senzu beans is not an impossible addition to his training.

Coming to improvements in power-level by pure training, Vegeta has the upper hand. If he had mastered the SSJ he and Goku would be close in powerlevel in the Cell Tournament.

Well, that's what I think at least.

[Rocketman]

Coming to improvements in power-level by pure training, Vegeta has the upper hand. If he had mastered the SSJ he and Goku would be close in powerlevel in the Cell Tournament.

Vegeta was already closer than most think. When Goku went 50% in front of Korin, Vegeta thought that was his full power and got his "omgwtf" face on.

At the Cell games, though, Vegeta says to Goku that he can go first, since it'll be Vegeta who finishes Cell off. Then he gets the "omgwtf" face again when Goku goes full power.

So Cell Games Vegeta was stronger than 50% FPSSJ Goku.

[kaioken12]

Yeah, that is something else now that you mention Vegeta's power level rising faster.

He blew himself up to defeat Buu, I mean, how much more damage can a saiyan body get to have it rebuilt stronger?

No, seriously, leaving this GT beside, I really think there is a good chance that he could do it.

There is no real prove though.
But 10 years of training after one time killed and one time really beaten up to death and healed and having seen how to do it, Vegeta could have achieved it - I mean, it's Vegeta, he has nothing to do but to get stronger... :/

[Kaboom]

I've brought it up before, but I'll mention it again. I believe that during the second rounds in the RoSaT, Vegeta (and maybe Trunks as well) actually did at least start training towards FP SSj. Vegeta already knew that USSj wasn't going to do squat against Cell, and I'm willing to bet that from what he saw and felt that Goku had become after his turn, that he was smart enough to realize what it was and work towards it. I don't think he'd have been confident enough in his power to claim that'd he'd be the one to kill Cell like he did if he hadn't.

[kaioken12]

I've brought it up before, but I'll mention it again. I believe that during the second rounds in the RoSaT, Vegeta (and maybe Trunks as well) actually did at least start training towards FP SSj. Vegeta already knew that USSj wasn't going to do squat against Cell, and I'm willing to bet that from what he saw and felt that Goku had become after his turn, that he was smart enough to realize what it was and work towards it. I don't think he'd have been confident enough in his power to claim that'd he'd be the one to kill Cell like he did if he hadn't.

I think the fault Vegeta made at this point was at least partly to go training without Trunks.
Where Goku fought Gohan every day to get stronger, Vegeta just trained alone.

[Godo]

I've brought it up before, but I'll mention it again. I believe that during the second rounds in the RoSaT, Vegeta (and maybe Trunks as well) actually did at least start training towards FP SSj. Vegeta already knew that USSj wasn't going to do squat against Cell, and I'm willing to bet that from what he saw and felt that Goku had become after his turn, that he was smart enough to realize what it was and work towards it. I don't think he'd have been confident enough in his power to claim that'd he'd be the one to kill Cell like he did if he hadn't.

I think the fault Vegeta made at this point was at least partly to go training without Trunks.
Where Goku fought Gohan every day to get stronger, Vegeta just trained alone.

Agreed. He would certainly had surpassed Goku I think. He was stronger than Goku was before he went in, plus he had an extra year.
I agree with both SSj Kaboom and kaioken12.

[Chibi Jesus]

Well, who's to say he really hasn't become a SSJ3 by the end of the series? With his intent to face Goku at the 28th Tenka-ichi Budôkai, perhaps he was hiding this new transformation... waiting to take everyone by surprise at the beginning of their match (or even deeper into it for a much more dramatic outcome).

Yet when Goku reveals that he's leaving to train Uub, Vegeta doesn't seem throw a fit. Maybe he really did calm down quite a bit, and understands there will be a better opportunity to test his true strength - that is to say, after Goku's new training regimen has strenghtened him up a bit as well.

Although I really doubt that's the case. Truthfully, I kind of prefer Vegeta shadowing Goku, right up to the end of the series. Then again...

I think, really, this all had to do with Toriyama's wanting to wrap up the story. Throwing in a SSJ3 Vegeta at the last minute and then ending the series would leave a lot to be desired. Still, the ending to the Kanzenban really is suggesting something.

[Xyex]

Throwing in a SSJ3 Vegeta at the last minute and then ending the series would leave a lot to be desired.

Hell no, that would have kicked ass! Imagine, instead of Uub being there at the end we'd have had Goku and Vegeta facing each other and fighting for a few pages working up to SSJ2 along the way. And then the last few pages would have had Vegeta transforming to SSJ3, everyone being shocked, Goku transforming, and then the very last shot would have been them staring each other down and smirking. And then you get THE END. That would have rocked.

[Chibi Jesus]

Throwing in a SSJ3 Vegeta at the last minute and then ending the series would leave a lot to be desired.

Hell no, that would have kicked ass! Imagine, instead of Uub being there at the end we'd have had Goku and Vegeta facing each other and fighting for a few pages working up to SSJ2 along the way. And then the last few pages would have had Vegeta transforming to SSJ3, everyone being shocked, Goku transforming, and then the very last shot would have been them staring each other down and smirking. And then you get THE END. That would have rocked.

Admittedly, that would have been nice.

Stiil... I don't know.

But I really do like your perspective on their relationship and how it would all sum up at the end. Kinda nice to come up with our own alternatives to the storyline every now and then!

Only bad thing about that though is it would push the Goku and Vegeta rivalvry to a new extreme... with everyone else now officially a background character. Still pretty cool though. I really like it!

[Godo]

Throwing in a SSJ3 Vegeta at the last minute and then ending the series would leave a lot to be desired.

Hell no, that would have kicked ass! Imagine, instead of Uub being there at the end we'd have had Goku and Vegeta facing each other and fighting for a few pages working up to SSJ2 along the way. And then the last few pages would have had Vegeta transforming to SSJ3, everyone being shocked, Goku transforming, and then the very last shot would have been them staring each other down and smirking. And then you get THE END. That would have rocked.

What about Uub showing up, but as Goku watches with shock, Uub isn't really icarnated fully as good...

Goku firstly intimidates the innocent Uub, but when he goes too far and Uub releases his full power (yes this time he has the full power), and his evil personality snaps out of him.

Somewhere King Yemma made a mistake.

Uub goes all out, and is too much for Goku to handle alone, even as a SSJ3 (his ki falls, even though he is stronger this time) and he is getting killed. Uub also starts to kill people in the audience.

In to the ring enters Vegeta, that to everyone's shock goes...SSJ3?! Together the former rivals defeat the last great enemy.

[Chuquita]

Throwing in a SSJ3 Vegeta at the last minute and then ending the series would leave a lot to be desired.

Hell no, that would have kicked ass! Imagine, instead of Uub being there at the end we'd have had Goku and Vegeta facing each other and fighting for a few pages working up to SSJ2 along the way. And then the last few pages would have had Vegeta transforming to SSJ3, everyone being shocked, Goku transforming, and then the very last shot would have been them staring each other down and smirking. And then you get THE END. That would have rocked.

That would've been the best ending ever.


I never cared for Goku abandoning Vegeta at the end like that. He completely ditched him when Goku is probably the only reason Vegeta entered the thing.

[Conan the SSJ]

Throwing in a SSJ3 Vegeta at the last minute and then ending the series would leave a lot to be desired.

Hell no, that would have kicked ass! Imagine, instead of Uub being there at the end we'd have had Goku and Vegeta facing each other and fighting for a few pages working up to SSJ2 along the way. And then the last few pages would have had Vegeta transforming to SSJ3, everyone being shocked, Goku transforming, and then the very last shot would have been them staring each other down and smirking. And then you get THE END. That would have rocked.

That would've been the best ending ever.

There'd also need to be a shot of Gohan sitting by Videl with Pan on his lap in the tournament "VIP" seats with Piccolo standing behind him with an equal smile, just before the final face-off. And I'd love for Goten and Trunks to get in the final dialogue before the final panel.

Goten: "Would you wanna fight them?"
Trunks: "Personally, I'd rather slay a dragon."

I never cared for Goku abandoning Vegeta at the end like that. He completely ditched him when Goku is probably the only reason Vegeta entered the thing.

Ditto~ I've even found the West City party/dino-eggs filler episode and DBZ movie 13 to be better conclusions for DBZ, each in their own rights. The last 3 episodes, for me, just are too much of a cliff-hanger and don't serve as much of an emotional impact. Oh, look, Goku's leaving his family once again for a selfish wish to train Majin Buu's reincarnation; I dunno, this ending just leaves too many elements ... unexplored IMO. Hence why I find the necessity to include GT as canon from my viewpoint with the anime, its special and final episode just ends "Everything" on such a grand scope and scale.

[Kaboom]

Hey, well, according to Neko Majin Z, Goku brought Oob back to live with him and the rest of the family before long...