People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

I don't mind Goku being the focus since he is the main character. Although what I am liking this arc is it's going back to the original Z era where it's both him and Gohan as the main characters. I think this arc is doing a descent job giving other characters focus. Like last episode was about Hit, sure Goku helped out but he didn't over take the episode.

[TBMx]

I also agree that Super, while still effectively a 'Goku Show', does make the other characters more relevant ... by narrowing the power gaps.

Goku's more powerful than his entire team put together (SSB KKx10) and is set to get even stronger.

[Nickolaidas]

... What's more realistical? The writing of DB or thinking that Goku would sit on the bench, come back and not have any kind of "cool" moment? Picture this: everyone waits for Goku, Goku steps in, and gets crushed by Recoome. Or stuggles against Recoome and gets crushed by Ginyu.

Oh, gosh, gee, I don't know ...

How about Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin killing all the Ginyu members except Ginyu himself who would crush them (thus displaying the difference in power between his teammates and himself), while praising (and cursing) the three Z Warriors for humbling his team. THEN, Goku arrives and beats him. He still proves he's the top dog, but without utterly neutering his friends.

Or how about Piccolo, Yamcha, Chiaotzu and Krillin staggering Nappa so that Tien can nuke him to atoms with his Tri Beam, then Vegeta kills Piccolo (so that Namek can happen) and knocks everyone out, cursing them for killing yet another Saiyan. THEN, Goku arrives and fights him. He still proves he's the top dog, but without utterly neutering his friends.

Want me to go on?

The thing is, Goku can be still the man without making everyone else look like utter shit.

[HeroR]

... What's more realistical? The writing of DB or thinking that Goku would sit on the bench, come back and not have any kind of "cool" moment? Picture this: everyone waits for Goku, Goku steps in, and gets crushed by Recoome. Or stuggles against Recoome and gets crushed by Ginyu.

Oh, gosh, gee, I don't know ...

How about Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin killing all the Ginyu members except Ginyu himself who would crush them (thus displaying the difference in power between his teammates and himself), while praising (and cursing) the three Z Warriors for humbling his team. THEN, Goku arrives and beats him. He still proves he's the top dog, but without utterly neutering his friends.

Or how about Piccolo, Yamcha, Chiaotzu and Krillin staggering Nappa so that Tien can nuke him to atoms with his Tri Beam, then Vegeta kills Piccolo (so that Namek can happen) and knocks everyone out, cursing them for killing yet another Saiyan. THEN, Goku arrives and fights him. He still proves he's the top dog, but without utterly neutering his friends.

Want me to go on?

The thing is, Goku can be still the man without making everyone else look like utter shit.

And it was done in Resurrection 'F' where the Z-Fighters could beat all of Freeza's men, but got stomped by Freeza. Even in the retellings that had a power up Tagoma, Gohan still took him out with eased. He only didn't get the finishing blow because of Gohan's mercy and Freeza stepping in.

I also think the Saiyan Saga would have been better if the Z-Fighters took out Nappa. We could even still have Piccolo dying to Nappa along with the rest of the Z-Fighters, but their teamwork manage to take Nappa down. Vegeta would still appear strong since it took an entire team to take the weaker Nappa down and Goku by himself could hold off Vegeta, showing how strong he got.

The Ginyu Force, it would be nice if they at least hurt Recoome, not necessarily beat him.

[Nickolaidas]

... What's more realistical? The writing of DB or thinking that Goku would sit on the bench, come back and not have any kind of "cool" moment? Picture this: everyone waits for Goku, Goku steps in, and gets crushed by Recoome. Or stuggles against Recoome and gets crushed by Ginyu.

Oh, gosh, gee, I don't know ...

How about Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin killing all the Ginyu members except Ginyu himself who would crush them (thus displaying the difference in power between his teammates and himself), while praising (and cursing) the three Z Warriors for humbling his team. THEN, Goku arrives and beats him. He still proves he's the top dog, but without utterly neutering his friends.

Or how about Piccolo, Yamcha, Chiaotzu and Krillin staggering Nappa so that Tien can nuke him to atoms with his Tri Beam, then Vegeta kills Piccolo (so that Namek can happen) and knocks everyone out, cursing them for killing yet another Saiyan. THEN, Goku arrives and fights him. He still proves he's the top dog, but without utterly neutering his friends.

Want me to go on?

The thing is, Goku can be still the man without making everyone else look like utter shit.

And it was done in Resurrection 'F' where the Z-Fighters could beat all of Freeza's men, but got stomped by Freeza. Even in the retellings that had a power up Tagoma, Gohan still took him out with eased. He only didn't get the finishing blow because of Gohan's mercy and Freeza stepping in.

I also think the Saiyan Saga would have been better if the Z-Fighters took out Nappa. We could even still have Piccolo dying to Nappa along with the rest of the Z-Fighters, but their teamwork manage to take Nappa down. Vegeta would still appear strong since it took an entire team to take the weaker Nappa down and Goku by himself could hold off Vegeta, showing how strong he got.

The Ginyu Force, it would be nice if they at least hurt Recoome, not necessarily beat him.

I haven't seen the movie, but I was under the impression that Frieza only fights Goku and Vegeta there.

[HeroR]

I haven't seen the movie, but I was under the impression that Frieza only fights Goku and Vegeta there.

Freeza hits base form Gohan so hard in his first form that he stops Gohan's heart and he needed a Senzu. Not a 'fight' persay, but it got the point across. Freeza just outright tortured Gohan in the retellings.

[LowRyder2005]

How about Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin killing all the Ginyu members except Ginyu himself who would crush them (thus displaying the difference in power between his teammates and himself), while praising (and cursing) the three Z Warriors for humbling his team. THEN, Goku arrives and beats him. He still proves he's the top dog, but without utterly neutering his friends.

It's not like I don't understand where the criticism is coming from, but I think even your scenario might not ultimately differ from much from what we've seen. If Goku can beat Ginyu and Ginyu humbled the entire team, you'd still be establishing Goku's far, far above everyone else; in general, though, the supporting cast (Vegeta, Krillin, Gohan) already had quite a handful of kills or fights under their belt in the same arc (many goons, Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon #1, Zarbon #2, Guldo and Recoome himself), so it really ends up a matter of debating if killing/defeating an extra character or two among whoever was the strongest at that point, in Dragon Ball's ever-changing pecking order, would've changed much.

Want me to go on?

The thing is, Goku can be still the man without making everyone else look like utter shit.

My question was: how are we supposed to believe Super is better in that regard when, as others pretty eloquently surmised, Goku is stronger than his entire team (the likes of Vegeta and Gohan included) combined, and has been like this for virtually the entirity of Super's original content? When not even once did the outcome of a big fight or an important plot point not rest on his shoulders or his immediate actions, the very end of the Future Trunks Arc excluded?

I mean, at some point you have Vegeta who's the only one who can face Freeza. Same goes for Trunks, same goes for Piccolo, same goes for the kids in the Buu arc, etc. The contributions of the supporting cast were supposed to be fundamental in furthering the resolution of the conflict or towards the current aim (i.e. keeping the Dragon Balls out of Freeza's reach). Most of the times these characters had also - whether provisionally - achieved the status of the "strongest", acting therefore as a last bulwark against the antagonist. Super appears, quite simply, even more formulaic than Dragon Ball for many variegated reasons, when a character fills in for Goku, as rare as it may be, it's always happened of some cavil involving the tournament rules or for a need to "fill" time until the main plot can resume (Space Poachers, Barry Khan, Copy Water). It's a burdensome feature for many, but not incomprehensibly so.

[Nickolaidas]

My question was: how are we supposed to believe Super is better in that regard when, as others pretty eloquently surmised, Goku is stronger than his entire team?

Simple. You give the team victories and badass moments. Having Nappa die at the hands of the Earthlings and Piccolo would be a good way to show they're not completely helpless and useless. Or, even better, reduce the power level gap and have the entire battle happen WITH Goku. That is, Goku fighting Vegeta while the others are fighting Nappa. Two fronts, equally exciting. All heroes win, all get badass moments, people don't shake their head when you tell them you're a Tien fan.

In Super, this is established by giving people other than Goku victories in the Tournament. Seeing Roshi and Tien knockout opponents is nice, and it would be perfect if it was done with the same care as Frieza on Ep.95. This is good writing. When you make scenes with characters and people who watch become fans of the character, you're doing a good job. I'm pretty sure that Frieza got new fans with the movie and with the latest Super episodes (especially 95). Why is it that people already glorify Black while they don't have a clue what was the deal about Super 17? The former was written well, the latter was not. And by well, I mean, got nice scenes that glorified him as a character.

[LowRyder2005]

My question was: how are we supposed to believe Super is better in that regard when, as others pretty eloquently surmised, Goku is stronger than his entire team?

Simple. You give the team victories and badass moments. Having Nappa die at the hands of the Earthlings and Piccolo would be a good way to show they're not completely helpless and useless. Or, even better, reduce the power level gap and have the entire battle happen WITH Goku. That is, Goku fighting Vegeta while the others are fighting Nappa. Two fronts, equally exciting. All heroes win, all get badass moments, people don't shake their head when you tell them you're a Tien fan.

... That's cool and all, but are you sure you quoted the right part of the post?

[Nickolaidas]

My question was: how are we supposed to believe Super is better in that regard when, as others pretty eloquently surmised, Goku is stronger than his entire team?

Simple. You give the team victories and badass moments. Having Nappa die at the hands of the Earthlings and Piccolo would be a good way to show they're not completely helpless and useless. Or, even better, reduce the power level gap and have the entire battle happen WITH Goku. That is, Goku fighting Vegeta while the others are fighting Nappa. Two fronts, equally exciting. All heroes win, all get badass moments, people don't shake their head when you tell them you're a Tien fan.

... That's cool and all, but are you sure you quoted the right part of the post?

I was editing the post. Sorry.

[TBMx]

ROF was rubbish. It shouldn't be used as a positive example of anything but good animation.

The Z fighters struggled against Frieza soldiers that previously maxed out at 120,000. Ginyu makes it clear in the manga that he was gifted and rare for having that powerlevel. Frieza form 1 had a powerlevel of 530,000 and he was the terror of the universe even in that form. Frieza then states that the Frieza army had declined compared to what it once was. Yet in that movie, watch out for red horned bull man! Able to make the Super Namek struggle! Frieza says that Gohan could solo them yet says nothing about Piccolo. With Krillin, the same man who charged down Super Buu now being terrified against Frieza soldiers. With Master Roshi having to coach him through as if the entirety of Z never happened.

Frieza from 1 then utterly humiliates Gohan, the "strongest".

And then Goku and Vegeta arrive. Frieza goes from form 1 to form 4, challenges Goku and Goku beats him down without taking even a single hit. Then Vegeta wants in but the plot tells him to know his place, this is Goku Time. Then they transform and Goku eventually kill steals from Vegeta after they turn back time. Utterly killing any hope Vegeta fans ever had that he would ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever get the win on a major villain.

The old dbz/gt formula was this:

- Goku is out of commission somehow
- The Z fighters sense incoming opponents who blow something up to show how bad they are, and rush to meet them.
- They do well against the low minions, be it Saibamen, Frieza soldiers, the released villains from Hell in GT.
- The main villain's number 2 ( or said villains lowest form) utterly humiliates them
- Goku arrives and easily dispatches the number 2 guy to show how awesomesauce he iz, and/or will pull off a feat against the villain to show how far above the rest he is. The rest of the cast gush about how "different" Goku is now and how he's on an unimaginable, mindboggling level now.
- The villain transforms to their final form to match Goku.
- The villain starts to win.
- The other cast will usually interject now and help Goku somehow by distracting the villain, typically being horribly beaten up to show how awesome Goku is again and how much of a threat the villain is. (be it Vegeta (ROF, Kid Buu) , Piccolo (Namek Saga) 18 (Super Android 17), Krillin/Gohan (Saiyan/Namek Saga) etc.
- Goku will then make a come back by reaching some new level or pulling some big technique and win.

ROF absolutely follows that formula. And I expect the TOP will too. Except the ONLY DIFFERENCE now is Goku is involving himself heavily, and dominating screentime, in the lower minions stage. This is pissing people off.

Again, what if in ROF, Goku was there at the start and dominated the fight with Frieza's soldiers, crowding out the other's screentime, and then had the Frieza fight mostly to himself and then got a new form or the win? That's what this is with the TOP.

[PsionicWarrior]

Z handled better Goku's screentime because they knew when to put him off, so when he got the spotlight he really shined. Remember on Namek?

[HeroR]

Z handled better Goku's screentime because they knew when to put him off, so when he got the spotlight he really shined. Remember on Namek?

Because he was a plot device and Goku getting hurt on Namek after he just back into the story was contrived.

[PsionicWarrior]

Because he was a plot device and Goku getting hurt on Namek after he just back into the story was contrived.

For sure I agree, and there is other instances when he was used as such, can't complain about someone getting too much screen when you don't see him enough

[Lord Beerus]

Because he was a plot device and Goku getting hurt on Namek after he just back into the story was contrived.

For sure I agree, and there is other instances when he was used as such, can't complain about someone getting too much screen when you don't see him enough

The Namek arc was terrible in handling Goku. That was where he went from a character to a plot device because of he got benched and then inserted back into the plot and made to seem like the second of Jesus. It's made even worse with how the fight between Freeza and the main cast at that time progresses while Goku isn't around. Vegeta seems on par with Freeza, then he transforms and takes control. Then Piccolo arrives and holds his own against the newly transformed Freeza. So Freeza just transforms again. Then Gohan, in a sudden burst of anger, overwhelms Freeza. And so in response, Freeza transforms again, and this time, transforms into his true Final Form. Then Goku arrives and fights Freeza. Having also conveniently become more than 30 times stronger since the last time he fought. And what's even worse is that it later turns out even in his final form, Freeza is still not fighting anywhere near his full power. So Freeza could have realistically went straight to his final form, powered up to 50%, and just slaughtered everyone before Goku arrived. So everything about Freeza fighting Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin and Vegeta before Goku arrived was basically a glorified stalling static on Toriyama's part so that Goku could arrive on the scene and the "real" fight could begin. It just undercuts everything about Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin and Vegeta fighting Freeza because it really didn't matter. Freeza could have easily killed all of them before Goku came back.

[PsionicWarrior]

But it created tension and moments of epicness, to me personally is one fantastic arc. Say what you want, that moment Goku comes back is a strong one, so is Gohan blasting Freeza. This is exactly the kind of stuff TOP lacks, currently everything is too predictable.

[TBMx]

Because he was a plot device and Goku getting hurt on Namek after he just back into the story was contrived.

For sure I agree, and there is other instances when he was used as such, can't complain about someone getting too much screen when you don't see him enough

The Namek arc was terrible in handling Goku. That was where he went from a character to a plot device because of he got benched and then inserted back into the plot and made to seem like the second of Jesus. It's made even worse with how the fight between Freeza and the main cast at that time progresses while Goku isn't around. Vegeta seems on par with Freeza, then he transforms and takes control. Then Piccolo arrives and holds his own against the newly transformed Freeza. So Freeza just transforms again. Then Gohan, in a sudden burst of anger, overwhelms Freeza. And so in response, Freeza transforms again, and this time, transforms into his true Final Form. Then Goku arrives and fights Freeza. Having also conveniently become more than 30 times stronger since the last time he fought. And what's even worse is that it later turns out even in his final form, Freeza is still not fighting anywhere near his full power. So Freeza could have realistically went straight to his final form, powered up to 50%, and just slaughtered everyone before Goku arrived. So everything about Freeza fighting Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin and Vegeta before Goku arrived was basically a glorified stalling static on Toriyama's part so that Goku could arrive on the scene and the "real" fight could begin. It just undercuts everything about Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin and Vegeta fighting Freeza because it really didn't matter. Freeza could have easily killed all of them before Goku came back.

The alternative that Super presents is having Goku in the thick of it at the start without any hint of being challenged. As opposed to the tense struggle for survival with the minor characters in the Namek saga, where it felt like not one of them was safe.

Again, if Toei is going to reveal that Goku gets a new form way before he actually gets it, then what's at stake for him until he gets it? The running time? It's just showing him for the sake of showing him.

[HeroR]

For sure I agree, and there is other instances when he was used as such, can't complain about someone getting too much screen when you don't see him enough

The Namek arc was terrible in handling Goku. That was where he went from a character to a plot device because of he got benched and then inserted back into the plot and made to seem like the second of Jesus. It's made even worse with how the fight between Freeza and the main cast at that time progresses while Goku isn't around. Vegeta seems on par with Freeza, then he transforms and takes control. Then Piccolo arrives and holds his own against the newly transformed Freeza. So Freeza just transforms again. Then Gohan, in a sudden burst of anger, overwhelms Freeza. And so in response, Freeza transforms again, and this time, transforms into his true Final Form. Then Goku arrives and fights Freeza. Having also conveniently become more than 30 times stronger since the last time he fought. And what's even worse is that it later turns out even in his final form, Freeza is still not fighting anywhere near his full power. So Freeza could have realistically went straight to his final form, powered up to 50%, and just slaughtered everyone before Goku arrived. So everything about Freeza fighting Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin and Vegeta before Goku arrived was basically a glorified stalling static on Toriyama's part so that Goku could arrive on the scene and the "real" fight could begin. It just undercuts everything about Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin and Vegeta fighting Freeza because it really didn't matter. Freeza could have easily killed all of them before Goku came back.

The alternative that Super presents is having Goku in the thick of it at the start without any hint of being challenged. As opposed to the tense struggle for survival with the minor characters in the Namek saga, where it felt like not one of them was safe.

Again, if Toei is going to reveal that Goku gets a new form way before he actually gets it, then what's at stake for him until he gets it? The running time? It's just showing him for the sake of showing him.

You mean everyone being fodder until the plot device saved their asses.

[Kanassa]

The alternative that Super presents is having Goku in the thick of it at the start without any hint of being challenged. As opposed to the tense struggle for survival with the minor characters in the Namek saga, where it felt like not one of them was safe.

Again, if Toei is going to reveal that Goku gets a new form way before he actually gets it, then what's at stake for him until he gets it? The running time? It's just showing him for the sake of showing him.

You mean everyone being fodder until the plot device saved their asses.

Hell, GOku has been challenged plenty of times in Super. It's become a meme by this point how much Goku loses in this show.

[Lord Beerus]

The main stake of which universe is going survive is still very much present. Regardless of what new form Toei may have already revealed fo Goku. We don't know the circumstances of all other characters in the tournament who are still standing in terms of how strong they are or if they can get stronger as there is still a long way to go, in-universe speaking, before the tournament ends. So how Goku's new form stacks up compared to the competition that he hamy be up against by the time he debuts the new form is still very much up the question. And besides, Goku was always going to a central focus of this tournament since he got the ball rolling, so I would have expected to him to be one of the few constants remaining.