Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

[LowRyder2005]

Fair enough. I've always assumed that the narrative technique of "show, don't tell" was to enable the reader/watcher to experience the story through actions, thoughts, senses, and feelings rather than through exposition, summarisations, and descriptions. Which is what I assumed they were going for with the Genki Dama Sword. The show didn't feel as though it needed to explain what was happening but rather you be be taken aback by the spectacle of the moment and the representation of it. I apologize if I was off the ball with that one, but that's how I've always seen it. Another elaboration from you would be more than welcome to further enlighten me.

Oh, you weren't that off the mark! In fact, your definition is pretty spot-on. "Show, don't/not tell" is usually meant to be "don't use words, but let people understand it/ feel it in some way". There's this really, really good article that explains it in detail by crafting a bunch of literary examples (even though the "show/tell" concept is mostly applied to visual arts like cinema, historically).

http://www.foremostpress.com/authors/ar ... _tell.html

Maybe I'd contest your take on how Super handles the thing, then. I believe you may be confusing the "showing" part done properly in contrast to when it's half-assed. If DBS writers did implement the "show, not tell" tactic to successfully make us understand... say, uh, power levels, they would have a character visually doing something another character can't and his or her actions sufficing in explaining the underlying narrative by themselves. Without apparent logical gaps or unintended surface contradictions, that is, which are really the root of the problem in Super for most of us fans.
In other words, you'd still understand what you want to know through visual cues because whoever envisioned the thing was thorough; it these visual or textual clues weren't enough, then it's not "show don't tell", but pretty much a "didn't tell and didn't show". Hope I was a little clearer; then again, I think the article is much more eloquent than what I could hope to be -- other than a fun read.

[SansrivaaL]

Nope, not even close. DB>DBZ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DBS, if possible I would use more ">" but it make take up a huge space in this thread (anyways dont quote me on this telling me "can you elaborate")
The writing is all over the place, it literally feels like it has a different writer per episode (which is true btw ) everytime I watch it I dont get the feeling of "oh this happened in between Boo arc and EoZ"
As for my view when it comes to viewing it as a shonen series in general.. compared to Gintama,7 Deadly Sins,MHA and Magi it doesnt even come close, tho its not as bad as Fairy Tail so I guess its not the worst.

[Lord Beerus]

Fair enough. I've always assumed that the narrative technique of "show, don't tell" was to enable the reader/watcher to experience the story through actions, thoughts, senses, and feelings rather than through exposition, summarisations, and descriptions. Which is what I assumed they were going for with the Genki Dama Sword. The show didn't feel as though it needed to explain what was happening but rather you be be taken aback by the spectacle of the moment and the representation of it. I apologize if I was off the ball with that one, but that's how I've always seen it. Another elaboration from you would be more than welcome to further enlighten me.

Oh, you weren't that off the mark! In fact, your definition is pretty spot-on. "Show, don't/not tell" is usually meant to be "don't use words, but let people understand it/ feel it in some way". There's this really, really good article that explains it in detail by crafting a bunch of literary examples (even though the "show/tell" concept is mostly applied to visual arts like cinema, historically).

http://www.foremostpress.com/authors/ar ... _tell.html

Maybe I'd contest your take on how Super handles the thing, then. I believe you may be confusing the "showing" part done properly in contrast to when it's half-assed. If DBS writers did implement the "show, not tell" tactic to successfully make us understand... say, uh, power levels, they would have a character visually doing something another character can't and his or her actions sufficing in explaining the underlying narrative by themselves. Without apparent logical gaps or unintended surface contradictions, that is, which are really the root of the problem in Super for most of us fans.
In other words, you'd still understand what you want to know through visual cues because whoever envisioned the thing was thorough; it these visual or textual clues weren't enough, then it's not "show don't tell", but pretty much a "didn't tell and didn't show". Hope I was a little clearer; then again, I think the article is much more eloquent than what I could hope to be -- other than a fun read.

Ah, I understand now. Thank you for your further elaboration. And the article you linked was certainly very insightful and damn good read in general.

Cheers.

[Yomi]

The DB community ask for "show don't tell", and then they turn around and call everything an ass-pull or "head-canon" when the exposition isn't spoonfed through dialogue. It's really odd.

[PsionicWarrior]

Nope, not even close. DB>DBZ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DBS, if possible I would use more ">" but it make take up a huge space in this thread (anyways dont quote me on this telling me "can you elaborate")

Hey mate can you elaborate lol

[Chuquita]

I can't say until it's over, but right now it feels like kind of a mess. I think there's too many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to the writing/story.

Toei's proved to me in other properties that they can do series without a manga to base it off of, so I think there's just too many people between Shueisha and Toei getting to put ingredients in the pot without checking to see if the result is a compelling, cohesive narrative.

That said, the movie retellings were just buying time with some fun bits here and there, Champa arc was ok but left me with too many things unknown (Planet Salad and Uni 6 Earth look like...?), Gokû Black arc was so much of a fun guessing game murder mystery except it had too many endings and fell apart near the end, and the tournament arc has been mostly boring with a handful of neat inconsequential moments thrown in.

[Zagacious]

The DB community ask for "show don't tell", and then they turn around and call everything an ass-pull or "head-canon" when the exposition isn't spoonfed through dialogue. It's really odd.

That's because they spend unnecessary amount of time explaining things that are obvious, or in pointless dialogue for an entire episode that amounts to nothing, but then leave out explanations completely for things that desperately need it like Trunks Genki Dama and Goku going SSG 2 episodes ago.

It's getting better overall though, the last episode 105 with Roshi was the perfect amount of explaining, although the power of U4 was a lot lower than expected based on previous episodes, it was to give Roshi a fight he could actually win, the amount of explaining in-dialogue was perfect. Brief one liners or allusions to what their moves can do is really all that's needed, so it comes as a bit of a shock when something as big and arc-ending as the Genki Dama goes completely unexplained it just feels rushed. You can say we want to be spoon-fed all you want to be mocking, but pulling out a big move like that and not explaining it at all is just poor writing.

[BrolyKale]

Yes and no, they could have done way better, same goes for GT. Too much bad writing imo, but I think its still a fun show.

[FortuneSSJ]

It's the only anime/manga that interests me in the last years, so yeah.
It's far above GT and I'm this close on putting it above DB too. Not DBZ though.

[Saturnine]

From my perspective it really isn't that bad at all. I honestly enjoy it, despite Toei's shenanigans. I have to say though that I like the greater scheme of things better than I do the details, that's for sure.

So I'm really fond of the new worldbuilding (a perfectly logical direction to go in), excellent new characters as well as much love given to the supporting cast - they're often getting even more focus than they did in the Buu arc. What I'm not very fond of are the powerlevel inconsistencies and lack of blood. That said though, I don't think Super is any inferior to the Buu arc of Z, which is by many considered to already be tired. Well, if Super is tired, it's not any more than that arc was.

Also, FUNi is doing a great job of dubbing the series. Gone are the embarrassing "darns" of old, people actually say the word "ass" now and the pervy humor is preserved in all its glory. It's a really refreshing change.

[sintzu]

This is a good video that explains why Super isn't on the original's level, even though it's improved since it began.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfHBrhMM5bk

[PsionicWarrior]

This is a good video that explains why Super isn't on the original's level, even though it's improved since it began.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfHBrhMM5bk

This is very much outdated. The animation ever since the end of FTrunks arc has massively improved.

[Saturnine]

Z always introduced new characters to the cast and continuously develped everyone, Super's done none of that

It has. Beerus and Whis have become staple new members of the gang. The U6 Saiyans are probably going to be central in the future too.

Z never relied on nostalgia and insted always introduced new elements to the plot. The Saiyans, everything that happened on Namek, the androids & Buu are very different form one another

That's because DB and Z aren't really separate, they're two parts based on one and the same manga. In the manga the distinction between these two is only that of a timeskip, these two series aren't really different series at all. It's natural Toriyama would come up with different and more threatening villains and situations for the further parts. And yeah, you can't help but notice that going from Vegeta to Buu, every subsequent villain was not only stronger, but had more and more unfair advantages than the previous, culminating in Buu's rubbery body and unlimited absorption abilities. GT attempted to take this one step further by introducing Baby, who wasn't that bad of an idea actually. But what Super's done instead isn't bad at all. Unlike GT, they added another logical increment of the universal hierarchy to the worldbuilding, so the strongest new characters introduced actually have their strength backed by their status. On the other hand, the strength of most GT's villains was not justifiable by their status, in fact it required significant suspension of disbelief to accept they were THAT strong. It's way easier to accept the power of the gods of destruction and angels than fucking dragons from the Earth's puny dragonballs.

[/quote]Super pretty much is surviving on nostalgia form Z and seems to be afraid to do something completely new.[/quote]

While I'll admit that Super plays on nostalgia a lot, it's way more innovative in its plots, types of characters and overall direction than any Toei-exclusive product (talking about the 13 theatrical movies and GT, all of which were very derivative). Tournament arcs are perfectly fine, since we haven't had a single tournament that we got to watch until its conclusion since the 23rd where Goku fought Piccolo. Plus, they're tons of fun and always enjoyable to watch. Beerus' arc was entirely unlike any arc before it too, introducing a much more complex antagonist who really wasn't a villain and Zamasu introduced a villain kaioshin - not something we'd ever had before either. Of course RoF was just another "bad guy comes to earth in a spaceship" fare, with Freeza nostalgia to cash in on, but luckily that arc was somewhat retroactively justified by including Freeza in the ToP. So in all honesty, as far as the narrative is concerned, Super really isn't all that bad. It's far, far from perfect, but I'm still way more bothered by some of GT's storytelling decisions than I am by anything from Super.

[PsionicWarrior]

Super really isn't all that bad.

The main problem with Super is that there is not enough great episodes on average. I don't ask for every episode to be a masterpiece, but I long for more that are really good. Because when Super does things right, it fucking works.

[sintzu]

It has. Beerus and Whis have become staple new members of the gang.

Those 2 were introduced in a Z movie 2 years before Super was a thing. Even if you want to count them as Super characters, they're the exact same characters they were when we first saw them even though we're 100+ episodes in.

This is very much outdated. The animation ever since the end of FTrunks arc has massively improved.

It's been the same since episode one, a mixed bag. There are some improvments here and there but nowhere near what people make them out to be. If Super was a 5 when it started then it's just a 6 now.

[Asura]

No. It's enjoyable fanfiction. I'm getting around to watching Kai TFC now and honestly it's like two completely different shows with completely different characters.

GT is more of a worthy continuation in my eyes. The show is plagued with problems but if nothing else they handled the characters much, much better than Super has, and the art, animation, etc. look like a continuation of Z rather than some neutered digital animation that "modernizes" the characters.

Super might be able to execute ideas better than GT has, but as a whole GT gives off much more of an old school DB/DBZ vibe than Super does. Anyone who says Super is far above and beyond GT should probably go rewatch GT since I'm guessing it's been years since you've last seen it. When compared to Super, GT actually begins to look a lot better than it used to given just how much it gets right compared to Super. The cast does not feel like a parody of their former selves, and actual character development was given to characters like Goku and Vegeta. For example, Goku begins to get more and more concerned and protective over family as opposed to selfishly fighting all the time. He actually matures as a character. Vegeta retains his development from the end of the Buu arc and him and Goku feel like legitimate friends instead of the nonsensical rival angle that Super is playing them at. GT shows how basically every character has matured. Super just has everyone remain the same or regress.

[PsionicWarrior]

It's been the same since episode one, a mixed bag. There are some improvments here and there but nowhere near what people make them out to be. If Super was a 5 when it started then it's just a 6 now.

There has been a clear change in the animation after FTrunks arc (and some fights already started to be very good inside this arc), fights from before and from now are like night and day. Some even have better dynamics than in Z with their use of camera.

No. It's enjoyable fanfiction.
GT is more of a worthy continuation in my eyes.

Actually it's the other way around, Super is the official continuation and GT is the actual fan fiction lol

[sintzu]

No. It's enjoyable fanfiction. I'm getting around to watching Kai TFC now and honestly it's like two completely different shows with completely different characters.

GT is more of a worthy continuation in my eyes. The show is plagued with problems but if nothing else they handled the characters much, much better than Super has, and the art, animation, etc. look like a continuation of Z rather than some neutered digital animation that "modernizes" the characters.

Super might be able to execute ideas better than GT has, but as a whole GT gives off much more of an old school DB/DBZ vibe than Super does.

One thing GT did better for sure was put an unquestionable end to Goku's adventures. As much as I don't like endings where the main character dies (according to Nozawa anyway), I thik it was the only way to end a story like DB that's written in a way that can go on forever so Goku dying and the DBs going with him put an end to everything.

Actually it's the other way around, Super is the official continuation and GT is the actual fan fiction lol

Both are official continuations, liking one over the other doens't change that.

[Asura]

It's been the same since episode one, a mixed bag. There are some improvments here and there but nowhere near what people make them out to be. If Super was a 5 when it started then it's just a 6 now.

There has been a clear change in the animation after FTrunks arc (and some fights already started to be very good inside this arc), fights from before and from now are like night and day. Some even have better dynamics than in Z with their use of camera.

No. It's enjoyable fanfiction.
GT is more of a worthy continuation in my eyes.

Actually it's the other way around, Super is the official continuation and GT is the actual fan fiction lol

I meant that it feels like enjoyable fanfiction, not that it's literal fanfiction, obviously.

And they're both official continuations.

[PsionicWarrior]

Both are official continuations, liking one over the other doens't change that.

Oh give me a break, a Toei fan-fiction still is a fan-fiction lol