Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Base Vegeta was already clearly made out to be stronger than his previous Enraged Super Saiyan 2 state from before after he'd done that six months of training.

He took a blast point blank and stayed conscious whereas a suppressed Beerus previously took him out with a poke. He was drastically more powerful than a form that was drastically more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

If there's been a retcon then that's one thing but don't downplay all the other instances where they've been made to be super powerful. Things like how Gotenks is a lot weaker now is based on nothing.

[Ballistictiger]

what's the point of trying to apply consistency if you're just going to throw in convenient retcons whenever it benefits your argument

Good thing Super is not consistent at all. Oh, I mean bad thing it is.

[LowRyder2005]

Base Vegeta was already clearly made out to be stronger than his previous Enraged Super Saiyan 2 state from before after he'd done that six months of training.

He took a blast point blank and stayed conscious whereas a suppressed Beerus previously took him out with a poke. He was drastically more powerful than a form that was drastically more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

If there's been a retcon then that's one thing but don't downplay all the other instances where they've been made to be super powerful. Things like how Gotenks is a lot weaker now is based on nothing.

How is .Doctor, or even any of us, downplaying anything?
You guys do get that even if you want to advocate that Goku has a base which is between SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan scenes like Goku "matching" a Beerus who's going seriously still wouldn't make sense at all or strengthen any of the claims which've been presented in the "there's no retcon" argument? Beerus can probably defeat SSB Goku in a punch, SSB Goku is not that much above God, who's vastly stronger than his base at any level you have it (in the order of thousands of times, probably, since SS2 is "many tens of times" stronger than Goku's base form). Therefore, Beerus has already to be heavily suppressing himself regardless; never mind the show also apparently makes a point about how fighting with the handicap of a costume is making him excited. Costume or no costume, it wouldn't even be the first time Beerus has a "showy" fight with an opponent weaker than SS3 Goku, given that he doesn't exactly chop to sleep anyone on Bulma's cruiser (including the non-enraged Vegeta).

Secondly, I'm going to state this again as many times as it's needed: it's absolutely ridiculous that when confronted with arguments some of you guys need to resort to this empty talk about boogeymen and "downplaying" (which is becoming as much of a meme as the infamous "asspulls" in the DBS Manga topic) instead of at least being acceptive. It's been many pages now where people who go "you guys are bullshitting us" have ultimately proven they have no actual valid counter-argument to many of the other party's contentions, and that these ad ridiculum keep getting thrown us in the face of people who, at a deeper look, are only confirming they are not only promoting their super-personal inferences on vague terms, phrasing or relatively unrelated evidence, but as an indirect consequence they are also trying - more than occasionally - to make the characters not behave in what most normal people would deem a rational fashion. I won't even start, also, with this apparently "logical" mileage of the characters fighting seriously in friendly spars where they literally say they shouldn't hurt each other and yet not fighting seriously when they're being hurt in do or die situations.

Finally, the thing that would credibly prove the existence of a retcon, assuming that SS3 Gotenks is exactly or about as strong as he was (which is still an assumption, albeit a reasonably shared one), starts and ends with their feats against Gotenks compared to what happens after.
While it's perfectly possible that at they time they might have thought of that (if a retcon took place), Vegeta being superior to Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta is categorically not a fact at least today; other than being unmentioned, like it has already been told you, it's also even less reconcilable in retrospect, given that it would make base Vegeta far above Ultimate Gohan in BOG and consequentially Super Saiyan Gohan at the time of the spar (the same Gohan who doesn't possess the same "brimming power" from the Cell Game or Post-Cell Game, in Trunks' own words) -- who is stronger than base Goku unless proven wrong (a.k.a. some situation akin to Vegeta vs. Tagoma). Base Vegeta and base Goku are supposed to be equal. In other words, if you think that base Vegeta was that strong on Beerus' planet, chances are you're already involuntarily filling the part of an advocate for that same retcon you're speaking of.

Copy vegeta was reference in the black arc so no
Your ignoring whis feeling the need to intervene in their fight while bog ssj3 goku wasn't worth it
Goku traded blows with slim buu on even grounds it wasn't until slim buu caught goku off guard with his strategy and pushed him for a ring out

And the point is that "it happened"? You do realize nobody is saying that it happened in parallel universe, including the person you quoted?
If we want to rationalize this, even without arguing for retcons/ Beyond Gods and such and taking this usual (and even less selective) extreme in-universe justificationism, it would still be technically much easier to think Gotenks got much weaker over time, since it creates virtually no apparent contradictions -- while the other options do.
How does Whis intervening have to do with anything? He's Beerus' and Goku's master, so wouldn't it be his duty to stop them? If your point is that Whis intervened because nobody else could stop 'em, Vegeta can be as strong as SSB Goku, and if they're fight at the same level he could've easily stopped the duo all the same. Unless you want to argue that base Goku is too much for SSB Vegeta.
Do you have any proof Goku and Buu were going at seriously and that the "exchanging blows" part holds some real value? Because I don't see how anyone would be biased in thinking that if Buu was stronger than Goku he would've suppressed himself instead of killing him/ hurting him.

But since I can understand this is just my personal opinion, I'd be content if you could enlighten us on the reason why Goku would need to power-up to face a Super Saiyan 1/2 Gohan who's expressly stated to be weaker than Ultimate Gohan and how that same, weak Gohan (who doesn't even possess the same energy he had at the Cell Game, according to Trunks), can trade blows "on equal grounds" with a Super Saiyan Goku who's stronger than a base Goku - and according to you that same Fit Buu - who also can annihilate Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. It's interesting, because the consequence is ultimately that both Goku and Fit Buu (who's faster and either equal or stronger than Good Buu) need to be weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from the Cell Game.

If you say that base Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan Goku, I'll gladly insert you in my "list of two-base theorists".

Can't wait to see what will happen to this topic if we see Base Goku vs Jiren straight out of the OP.

It would mean absolutely nothing because Jiren supposedly is above Super Saiyan Blue, and if he can suppress himself to >SS3 Gotenks levels to fight evenly with Goku, then surely he can also suppress himself to Boo arc base levels.

Um, what? Jiren doesn't sandbag and has no reason to hold back against Goku.

... Says who? He can't "sandbag" like Hit, who takes his time studying base Goku when he could carve his face into the ground? If there's a reasonably clear way, through dialogues or visual feats, to determine base Goku is surpassing everyone else's 100% it'll be all good and dandy, but we're literally jumping the gun here.

Surviving sidra energy ball that had golden freeza panting to compress alone shits on anything from buu saga high tiers

A fine contention. May I ask where your relation on how the aforementioned "destructive energy ball" factors into unequivocally determining one's power level is for us mortals? There might be enough for a PhD in fictional science.

Sure let's say goku base us around buu saga levels
Him surviving sidra energy ball of destruction the same energy ball that had golden freeza struggling to compress and had panting shouldn't have happened and should've been instant killed the moment it hit him
Yet base goku survive it long enough for beerus to come and blow it away.

So your in-universe reasoning is that base Goku is not that far off from Golden Freeza? Super Saiyan 2 Goku is already "many tens of times stronger than base Goku" (or, avoiding formalities, let's just say a hundred times stronger). SSB and True Golden Freeza are far above that, since they are above SS2/3 and God.
So you already have one character and a character who's probably some generous thousands of times stronger surviving the same way the character many thousands of times weaker did. In other terms, not even the episode itself or the feat you're trying to use shows any apparent direct correlation between one's power and at least temporarily surviving inside the sphere. The show never makes a point about how much time is needed before being destroyed by the technique; as far as we know even Roshi might've died in minutes, so your "in the Buu saga everyone would've been insta-killed" premise is nothing more than speculation for its own sake.

[Doctor.]

Can't wait to see what will happen to this topic if we see Base Goku vs Jiren straight out of the OP.

It would mean absolutely nothing because Jiren supposedly is above Super Saiyan Blue, and if he can suppress himself to >SS3 Gotenks levels to fight evenly with Goku, then surely he can also suppress himself to Boo arc base levels.

Um, what? Jiren doesn't sandbag and has no reason to hold back against Goku.

So Jiren doesn't hold back but instead of smashing base Goku's face in, when Jiren's stronger than SSB, he fights evenly with him... because?

You do realize that no matter how strong you believe base Goku is, Jiren WILL be holding back when he fights him, right? There is absolutely no argument to be made here. If Jiren doesn't win immediately, then he's holding back.

what's the point of trying to apply consistency if you're just going to throw in convenient retcons whenever it benefits your argument

The people who argue for the retcon acknowledge that the series has no consistency, we argue for the retcon to try to make sense out of things, not to apply consistency. It's the people who argue otherwise that keep pretending like the writers all agree on how strong the characters are and that every fight in the series makes perfect sense.

[Bullza]

Secondly, I'm going to state this again as many times as it's needed: it's absolutely ridiculous that when confronted with arguments some of you guys need to resort to this empty talk about boogeymen and "downplaying

Well a lot of it is. Some people are just trying to find excuses for why Base Goku isn't as strong as he is. That's all it is.

Base Goku and Vegeta were enormously more powerful than before during the Resurrection F saga that is a simple fact. Vegeta was stronger than he had ever been beforehand which is why he could now sense God Ki, could now spar with Whis and was just said to be much stronger than before.

They were stronger than Post Trained Frieza in his Final Form whilst in his Final Form none of the other Z Fighters working together including Super Saiyan Gohan were a match for him in his First Form.

Those are the facts. So him being far above Gotenks and capable of receiving punches from Beerus' whereas before a little poke or tap knocked them straight unconscious was consistent with that.

Now you've got some people who are way too quick to state "Retcon! Retcon!" and though it were fact. Yes there are some questionable things but you shouldn't just assume that they happened to make such a significant change when there are a few things that also make it seem like there's no change at all. Instead of trying to explain away scenes were they appeared to be super strong you should instead try to see if there's a reason as for why they seem weaker.

Again as I said the show has made it clear a few times now that Goku starts slow and let's his guard down a lot which is at least partly why he struggles sometimes more than he should do.

As for Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo said that his training was not finished and still believes he could go even further. Vegeta previously said that Gohan had the greatest potential of them all and that was when he was a Super Saiyan Blue himself. So rather than say that Goku and Vegeta were nerfed tremendously through a retcon perhaps Ultimate Gohan achieved some of this potential to get to their level instead with that extra training he did.

[LowRyder2005]

Secondly, I'm going to state this again as many times as it's needed: it's absolutely ridiculous that when confronted with arguments some of you guys need to resort to this empty talk about boogeymen and "downplaying

Well a lot of it is. Some people are just trying to find excuses for why Base Goku isn't as strong as he is. That's all it is.

Base Goku and Vegeta were enormously more powerful than before during the Resurrection F saga that is a simple fact. Vegeta was stronger than he had ever been beforehand which is why he could now sense God Ki, could now spar with Whis and was just said to be much stronger than before.

They were stronger than Post Trained Frieza in his Final Form whilst in his Final Form none of the other Z Fighters working together including Super Saiyan Gohan were a match for him in his First Form.

Those are the facts. So him being far above Gotenks and capable of receiving punches from Beerus' whereas before a little poke or tap knocked them straight unconscious was consistent with that.

Now you've got some people who are way too quick to state "Retcon! Retcon!" and though it were fact. Yes there are some questionable things but you shouldn't just assume that they happened to make such a significant change when there are a few things that also make it seem like there's no change at all. Instead of trying to explain away scenes were they appeared to be super strong you should instead try to see if there's a reason as for why they seem weaker.

Again as I said the show has made it clear a few times now that Goku starts slow and let's his guard down a lot which is at least partly why he struggles sometimes more than he should do.

As for Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo said that his training was not finished and still believes he could go even further. Vegeta previously said that Gohan had the greatest potential of them all and that was when he was a Super Saiyan Blue himself. So rather than say that Goku and Vegeta were nerfed tremendously through a retcon perhaps Ultimate Gohan achieved some of this potential to get to their level instead with that extra training he did.

I don't think you're quite realizing what this entire "debate" actually entails to: nobody takes issue with ROF or even the filler before the Future Trunks arc, and nobody is questioning the Monaka-Beerus fight per se, much less the Base vs. SS3 Gotenks fight (in fact, everyone is starting from a common premise that excludes SS3 Gotenks could've been much weaker).

What was contested, specifically and for very good reasons, was this absurd rationale promoted by a couple of the users here that Beerus was somehow fighting "seriously" and that therefore that particular occasion could only be reconciled by assuming Goku had to be fighting at abnormally high levels, which is already disproven by the overaching narrative in itself: a serious Beerus can defeat effortlessly *any* Base Goku, pre-retcon, post-retcon, stronger than SS3 Gotenks, a "Super Vegito" Goku, a SSG Goku or whatever. If you accept the premise Beerus was suppressing himself and can lower or match his level to a weak foe to get a bigger kick out of a fight just like Goku does (like vs. Roshi), then your are already conceding that he could've been at any arbitrary given level back then, including weaker than however strong he was in the beginning of BOG -- especially since nobody bothers giving other precisations about each fighter's level in that bout.

If there's room to think of that Goku as particularly strong during that occasion is only because of the implications of ROF and early post-BOG along with - of course - the Gotenks' fight, not because of the non-feat of Goku fighting a suppressed Beerus (a literal case of a context-dependent memory contributing to your final impression): the second is at most a possible consequence of the first premise, in which case it cannot serve as "proof" of anything.

Regarding what I had stated, I was not not mentioning Ultimate Gohan in the current arc, but in BOG. If base Vegeta is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta he'd be stronger than that Ultimate Gohan in BOG, who is stronger than the Super Saiyan Gohan that's intended to be comparable to a *stronger than base* Super Saiyan Goku (I reinstate that "Super Saiyan Goku should be stronger than base Goku" because it looks like I have to start using similar pleonasms to send the point across). In short, Vegeta would have been massively stronger than the base Goku who spars against Gohan starting from the post BOG arc, when this obviously can't be. My point was that while you were talking about the "possibility" of a retcon, reconciling base Vegeta being stronger than that Ultimate Gohan from BOG without incidentally implying that a retcon had to happen regardless is quite the tall order, to put it mildly.

[Doctor.]

To prove that there's a retcon you need only look at Vegeta vs Hop and Hyssop. Vegeta, a character who does not hold back unlike Goku, needed to turn Super Saiyan in order to knock them out. He was having trouble with Hop's speed and Hyssop's ice. The Trio de Dangers were stated to be the strongest in U9. Now, if Vegeta has trouble and needs to go Super Saiyan to deal with two opponents weaker than Basil, who, in turn, is much, much weaker than Mr. Boo, then what kind of argument is there to be made?

I mean, you either acknowledge that there's inconsistency in the way the Saiyan base forms are portrayed, and then we can have a conversation about whether there has been a retcon or this was a one-off thing, or you don't acknowledge the inconsistency and completely take any credibility away from your arguments.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

To prove that there's a retcon you need only look at Vegeta vs Hop and Hyssop. Vegeta, a character who does not hold back unlike Goku, needed to turn Super Saiyan in order to knock them out. He was having trouble with Hop's speed and Hyssop's ice. The Trio de Dangers were stated to be the strongest in U9. Now, if Vegeta has trouble and needs to go Super Saiyan to deal with two opponents weaker than Basil, who, in turn, is much, much weaker than Mr. Boo, then what kind of argument is there to be made?

I mean, you either acknowledge that there's inconsistency in the way the Saiyan base forms are portrayed, and then we can have a conversation about whether there has been a retcon or this was a one-off thing, or you don't acknowledge the inconsistency and completely take any credibility away from your arguments.

This is consistent within the rest of this arc in general, just not with the old series and moments in past arcs. The consistency being that power levels aren't factoring in as much into how well fighters do against each other, with a greater emphasis on specific skills, tactics and abilities having more utility against other people.

For example, Obuni, despite commending base Gohan for keeping up with him, still lands hits on Ultimate Gohan and doesn't hit a brick wall like you would've seen in the old series in terms of power levels. As well, Bergamo, despite powering up dramatically during the Zen Exhibition Match, is still getting knocked around by SS Goku at choice moments. Additionally, we have SS Caulifla stopping Napapa right at the edge of the arena, and he can't do anything else after that despite pushing her quite well earlier.

[Doctor.]

This is consistent within the rest of this arc in general, just not with the old series and moments in past arcs. The consistency being that power levels aren't factoring in as much into how well fighters do against each other, with a greater emphasis on specific skills, tactics and abilities having more utility against other people.

Yet it was still Super Saiyan Vegeta's higher power level that allowed him to defeat them, not anything else. If base Vegeta was so strong, he would have done the same without needing to power-up.

For example, Obuni, despite commending base Gohan for keeping up with him, still lands hits on Ultimate Gohan and doesn't hit a brick wall like you would've seen in the old series in terms of power levels. As well, Bergamo, despite powering up dramatically during the Zen Exhibition Match, is still getting knocked around by SS Goku at choice moments. Additionally, we have SS Caulifla stopping Napapa right at the edge of the arena, and he can't do anything else after that despite pushing her quite well earlier.

Classic examples of Toei theatricality and nothing else, the strength of each character is pretty clear in every example.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This is consistent within the rest of this arc in general, just not with the old series and moments in past arcs. The consistency being that power levels aren't factoring in as much into how well fighters do against each other, with a greater emphasis on specific skills, tactics and abilities having more utility against other people.

Yet it was still Super Saiyan Vegeta's higher power level that allowed him to defeat them, not anything else. If base Vegeta was so strong, he would have done the same without needing to power-up.

For example, Obuni, despite commending base Gohan for keeping up with him, still lands hits on Ultimate Gohan and doesn't hit a brick wall like you would've seen in the old series in terms of power levels. As well, Bergamo, despite powering up dramatically during the Zen Exhibition Match, is still getting knocked around by SS Goku at choice moments. Additionally, we have SS Caulifla stopping Napapa right at the edge of the arena, and he can't do anything else after that despite pushing her quite well earlier.

Classic examples of Toei theatricality and nothing else, the strength of each character is pretty clear in every example.

If the latter is true, then why doesn't it apply to the former, given that the same general situation in terms of narrative intent is presented, only for different characters? That's inconsistent picking and choosing, right there.

[Marlowe89]

This is consistent within the rest of this arc in general, just not with the old series and moments in past arcs. The consistency being that power levels aren't factoring in as much into how well fighters do against each other, with a greater emphasis on specific skills, tactics and abilities having more utility against other people.

Hop wasn't particularly doing anything strategic beyond just straight-up attacking Vegeta, which unequivocally gave him some degree of difficulty even during their brief one-on-one. That's quite a far cry from effortlessly tanking any attack she could throw at him as in the Potaufeu arc, which Vegeta certainly WOULD be able to pull off if he was remotely as strong as people are implying him to be. The fact that he turned Super Saiyan to begin with demonstrably tells us that he required the power of Super Saiyan to take her out, because he definitely couldn't accomplish that in base.

Even going off of the presumption that power doesn't matter at all in these instances (although it really does, and has been emphasized as such repeatedly), you would still be proposing a type of inconsistency within the general framework of the show.

[Doctor.]

If the latter is true, then why doesn't it apply to the former, given that the same general situation in terms of narrative intent is presented, only for different characters? That's inconsistent picking and choosing, right there.

I mean, there's no theatricality with Vegeta. He goes Super Saiyan and deals with his opponents, that's it. Gohan turned ultimate because he was forced to, Obuni fucking around with base Gohan is where Toei's theatricality takes place, since we know Obuni is strong enough to hurt ultimate Gohan one-on-one.

I don't think your other two examples really... matter? Bergamo was portrayed as weaker than SS Goku and Napapa was portrayed as weaker than SS Caulifla but strong enough to give her some trouble. I don't see how they disprove anything.

It's not inconsistent picking and choosing, the narrative is that base Vegeta was overwhelmed. Yes, overwhelmed by the number of fighters, but the narrative of the episode also states that Super Saiyan Vegeta was strong enough to completely destroy ALL of the fighters despite their numerical advantage. The episode is literally telling you, the viewer, that no matter how many gang up on you, if you're strong enough, it makes no difference; this is DBZ's textbook approach to fights. If Vegeta was so strong in his base form, then he should have been able to handle them regardless, he wouldn't need to transform. He transformed because he needed to, and he needed to because he's not that strong; he's not strong enough to handle fighters that are weaker than someone much, much weaker than Mr. Boo when he's supposed to be stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

I'm not sure how I can make it any more clear.

[Bullza]

What was contested, specifically and for very good reasons, was this absurd rationale promoted by a couple of the users here that Beerus was somehow fighting "seriously" and that therefore that particular occasion could only be reconciled by assuming Goku had to be fighting at abnormally high levels

Beerus was not fighting seriously but he was letting off steam as Whis put it. The fight was serious enough that Whis had to intervene encase the two destroyed the planet, something he did not do previously when Vegeta or Buu fought against Beerus.

The same Beerus who could take out other high level characters with flicks, pokes, slapping them around etc was fighting Base Goku and punching him cleanly in the face and he was alright.

So was on a higher level than them at the least which is consistent with the story.

Regarding what I had stated, I was not not mentioning Ultimate Gohan in the current arc, but in BOG. If base Vegeta is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta he'd be stronger than that Ultimate Gohan in BOG, who is stronger than the Super Saiyan Gohan that's intended to be comparable to a *stronger than base* Super Saiyan Goku

Well Base Vegeta doesn't have to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan. He would be stronger than Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta who was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gohan.

There was no Ultimate Gohan in the Battle of Gods saga. Going by the narrative he hasn't had that power since Buu.

If Super Saiyan Gohan was intended to be comparable to Super Saiyan Goku then Super Saiyan Gohan wouldn't have had his ass kicked by First Form Frieza whilst Base Goku was on par with Final Form Frieza.

Gohan wouldn't have needed Super Saiyan to fight against Lavender while Base Goku fought on par with the stronger Bergamo.

To prove that there's a retcon you need only look at Vegeta vs Hop and Hyssop. Vegeta, a character who does not hold back unlike Goku, needed to turn Super Saiyan in order to knock them out.

That's not proof though. We already know Vegeta is as strong as Goku who is as strong as Bergamo who would be a lot stronger than Hop and Hyssop anyway.

Vegeta was fighting (and pushing back) Lavender when Hop attacked him and Vegeta dodged it. When Hop attacked Vegeta again he dodged every single attack before taking a surprise hit from Lavender.

Hop and Lavender attacked Vegeta together but still never actually hit him. Hyssop also caught him with a surprise attack by freezing his arm but that could have happened in any form. Hop attacks him but he dodges yet again.

When the tables turned Vegeta beat the absolute tar out of Hop and no he didn't transform there. Oregano caught Vegeta with his webbing because Vegeta let his guard down as was stated. Then he transformed and knocked them both off in one attack.

So no that's not proof because he was fighting numerous characters at once. He was hit once and caught by the ice and webbing while caught off guard and was overwhelming Lavender and easily beat Hop when he actually did fight them one on one.

[Doctor.]

Beerus was not fighting seriously but he was letting off steam as Whis put it. The fight was serious enough that Whis had to intervene encase the two destroyed the planet, something he did not do previously when Vegeta or Buu fought against Beerus.

Beerus wasn't being hindered by a suit when he fought Vegeta or Boo, how is this comparable?

Gohan wouldn't have needed Super Saiyan to fight against Lavender while Base Goku fought on par with the stronger Bergamo.

This is just being dishonest. Gohan kicked Lavenda's ass while blind, both in base and in Super Saiyan. He turned SS when Lavenda started flying and the wolf only got the upper-hand when the poison started kicking in.

So no that's not proof because he was fighting numerous characters at once. He was hit once and caught by the ice and webbing while caught off guard and was overwhelming Lavender and easily beat Hop when he actually did fight them one on one.

And if he was stronger than SS3 Gotenks, then fighting numerous characters that wouldn't be able to hold a candle to Mr. Boo at once should be nothing to him. He should have been able to handle all of them at once, but he needed to transform instead. It doesn't matter if he was caught off-guard because he still needed to transform to break Hysopp's ice, instead of simply powering-up in base form and destroy it.

[Simere]

You do realize that no matter how strong you believe base Goku is, Jiren WILL be holding back when he fights him, right? There is absolutely no argument to be made here. If Jiren doesn't win immediately, then he's holding back.

I think base Goku keeping up with Golden Freeza in 95 shows it might not be as simple as instantly losing if you don't transform immediately.

[LowRyder2005]

Beerus was not fighting seriously but he was letting off steam as Whis put it. The fight was serious enough that Whis had to intervene encase the two destroyed the planet, something he did not do previously when Vegeta or Buu fought against Beerus.

The same Beerus who could take out other high level characters with flicks, pokes, slapping them around etc was fighting Base Goku and punching him cleanly in the face and he was alright.

So was on a higher level than them at the least which is consistent with the story.

Since you want to keep debating over this thing with in-universe logic (which, as I had stated in the very first phrase of the post you quoted, wasn't really my point)...

No, it's inconclusive. A superior fighter can easily lower their power level to trade fists with an inferior person or keep it higher and finger-flick his opponent; therefore, if we want to apply an in-universe rationale, there's definitely the possibility Beerus was keeping a lower power output and getting excited because he had to fight with such a handicap. It's an equally speculative position, since we're left in the dark, without anything to go by in terms of statements or anything other than visual indications.
Since it's, again, never stated the level they're fighting at and that we already know that Beerus is suppressing himself to a degree, the truth is you're just unconsciously arguing for what you think is the writer's intent behind the scene, not the feat itself. In which case not even I have qualms with stating that Goku was almost surely intended to be showing off his "Saiyan Beyond God" power or whatever (SBG obviously being a placeholder for "the super powerful base that's far above SS Gohan, Piccolo, etc.").

Now, if we want to put it like this and being consistent, we also know that Goku has the capablities lower his power level to punch and get punched by a possessed Roshi when he also can finger-flick Tagoma (who can in turn one-shot Roshi): why wouldn't Beerus be able to do the same? Unless we want to start arguing that the possessed Roshi in question vastly surpasses both SS3 Gotenks and Tagoma.

Well Base Vegeta doesn't have to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan. He would be stronger than Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta who was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gohan.

There was no Ultimate Gohan in the Battle of Gods saga. Going by the narrative he hasn't had that power since Buu.

I'm afraid this is an attempt at applying a retroactive twist on things that doesn't really belong to the original story anyway. Gohan is stated to have lost the "power" by the time he faces Piccolo, not immediately after the Buu saga; regardless, he's undoubtedly "Ultimate" in the movie rendition of BOG (in fact, he's even been changed from Super Saiyan to Ultimate because the fans kept pressing for it) and there's no reason to think Super's rendition of BOG wasn't written with "Ultimate Gohan" in mind. Gohan also feels like he should be able to "unleash his full power" in ROF and realizes - for the first time, given his surprise - only afterwards that he actually can't. This full power is implied to be different than his Super Saiyan form (going Super Saiyan is his second choice, after all), the reference obviously being again his "Ultimate" self. In short, everything suggests Gohan lost access to his Ultimate power-up between BOG and ROF, not before.

A quick reminder, to avoid double standards: we're also going off the assumption that SS3 Gotenks shouldn't be weaker because it isn't expressly stated. Therefore, if you think that BOG Gohan can be weaker than the Ultimate Gohan it's be plenty legitimate for other people to assume Gotenks might not be the same Gotenks, power-wise, and also discard base Vegeta vs. Gotenks altogether from this debate.
Anyway, when BOG takes place, the movie rendition, production-related material states they chose their period - apparently - because "everyone was at their strongest". Hence, there's also technically no reason to assume - again, automatically - that this changed when BOG was serialized in Super.

To sum it up, enraged SS2 Vegeta almost surely needs to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan from Z. SS2 Vegeta does much better than the Ultimate Gohan we knew against Beerus, and (on paper) there's no reason to lean towards the hypothesis that this Ultimate Gohan is weaker (namely, there're only reasons to think otherwise).
Still, notice that I'm just entertaining your theory, because base Vegeta being above SS2 Rageta and Ultimate Gohan being actually base Gohan are not facts, but entirely your interpretations of a scene in which Goku sees base Vegeta and states the size (or quality, or whatever they talk about whenever ki is brought up) of his ki was much different than what he remembered.

If Super Saiyan Gohan was intended to be comparable to Super Saiyan Goku then Super Saiyan Gohan wouldn't have had his ass kicked by First Form Frieza whilst Base Goku was on par with Final Form Frieza.

Gohan wouldn't have needed Super Saiyan to fight against Lavender while Base Goku fought on par with the stronger Bergamo.

Leaving ROF aside, since like said many times nobody is really discussing that, even in the most conservative estimations about Super Saiyan Gohan's power in ep. 75 he almost certainly still needs to be a little stronger than base Goku, though, since - however suppressed Goku was against his son - it's highly illogical for Goku to multiply his power dozens of times and then power down below his own base form.
Plus, like it's been pointed out, it's not even like they make it appear like Gohan needs Super Saiyan to beat Lavenda: they start fighting with a Lavenda who doesn't seem to be playing around that much and they're pretty much even. Actually, base Gohan still beats the snot out of Lavenda when blinded (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWoqynIIzgM; 1:30), and only uses Super Saiyan after he's been blinded and the poison is starting to take its toll.

[Doctor.]

You do realize that no matter how strong you believe base Goku is, Jiren WILL be holding back when he fights him, right? There is absolutely no argument to be made here. If Jiren doesn't win immediately, then he's holding back.

I think base Goku keeping up with Golden Freeza in 95 shows it might not be as simple as instantly losing if you don't transform immediately.

They didn't even exchange blows.

And yes, it's absolutely that simple. We know there's over a hundred times difference between base Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Goku. Which means that, regardless of Goku's strength in base form, be it "normal", be it "over SS3 Gotenks", Jiren/Golden Freeza/Beerus/whoever is already suppressing themselves hundreds of times over for Goku to keep up. If they suppress themselves that much, then it's absolutely arbitrary to deduce how strong base Goku is from that alone.

[Simere]

You do realize that no matter how strong you believe base Goku is, Jiren WILL be holding back when he fights him, right? There is absolutely no argument to be made here. If Jiren doesn't win immediately, then he's holding back.

I think base Goku keeping up with Golden Freeza in 95 shows it might not be as simple as instantly losing if you don't transform immediately.

They didn't even exchange blows.

Yeah...exactly. If Freeza could have hit him he would have. Or are you suggesting speed doesn't increase with transformations?

[Doctor.]

Yeah...exactly. If Freeza could have hit him he would have. Or are you suggesting speed doesn't increase with transformations?

I'm suggesting that regardless of Goku's strength or speed in base form, Freeza is much faster than him. Or are you suggesting that, despite SSB Goku and Golden Freeza being equals, base Goku's speed is somehow even with Golden Freeza's? Seems like, to me, you're the one suggesting speed doesn't increase with transformations.

[ekrolo2]

Can someone explain to me how skill and tactics save people from being smashed? I'm sorry, but even if you gave 10 cavemen a strategy devised by the son of Paton and Rommel, that's not gonna make their skulls explode any less instantly when Master Chief speed blitzes them and rips their heads to shreds with a punch.

Shouldn't the VAST differences in speed alone make any weaker opponents strategies moot since their necks go snap against someone who's speed they cannot even fathom quickly enough to react to it?

And if the differences in power aren't as deciding as they were before, what's the gap? Can Krillin keep his guts on the inside against someone 10 times better then him at everything? 20? A hundred? Even 10 is already hard to swallow for me, anything above that and you're stoned enough to be considered Stonehenge if you think I'll buy that a guy can face someone who's hundreds of times stronger, faster and just all around better then him in every conceivable regard and NOT instantaneously get turned into a bloody smear on the wall.