Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

Can someone explain to me how skill and tactics save people from being smashed? I'm sorry, but even if you gave 10 cavemen a strategy devised by the son of Paton and Rommel, that's not gonna make their skulls explode any less instantly when Master Chief speed blitzes them and rips their heads to shreds with a punch.

That's the problem with everyone trying to underplay Kuririn's achievements against base Goku and base Gohan. You won't find me someone who seriously believes a Saiyan arc Kuririn could push around final form Freeza the way DBS Kuririn pushed around a supposedly God-tier Goku and Gohan just because of "tactics" and "strategy." Tactics overcomes a small power gap, not a fuckhuge one, that's the way Dragon Ball has always worked, and people are asking us to ignore that just so that we believe that "Goku and Vegeta's base are totally super strong, believe it, for real, they're just getting pounded by literally everyone because, uh, teamwork and tactics, even though they should be able to blitz."

[LowRyder2005]

I think base Goku keeping up with Golden Freeza in 95 shows it might not be as simple as instantly losing if you don't transform immediately.

They didn't even exchange blows.

Are you suggesting speed doesn't increase with transformations?

Uhm... I don't think the notion of "character can occasionally keep up with if the plot demands it" - or, in less diplomatic terms, "Toei loves thier PIS" - is devoid of any merit (in fact, it has plenty: we have many years of the same standard Toei handiwork: going all the way back to twenty years ago when Goku and Vegeta can punch Janemba away, Videl can survive two or three punches from Super Saiyan Broly, etc.), but, ultimately, why should speed or power be related to his objection since one can't make sense of the scene without Freeza already suppressing himself to near-base Goku levels if their speed is matched?

Golden Freeza = SSB Goku
Base Goku = let's say 1/1000 of SSB
If base Goku and Freeza are "matched" = Freeza is, for whatever reason, just using 1/1000 of his power (basically, an absurdingly small fraction)

"Since Freeza is suppressing himself to some tiny fraction, base Goku can match him in speed and power. If Freeza is not suppressing himself, Goku can't match him".
It's worthy of notice that Freeza also kept his Golden form not because he was facing Goku, but because he had been showing it to Goku earlier (if, well, we needed to clarify this).

[Simere]

Yeah...exactly. If Freeza could have hit him he would have. Or are you suggesting speed doesn't increase with transformations?

I'm suggesting that regardless of Goku's strength or speed in base form, Freeza is much faster than him. Or are you suggesting that, despite SSB Goku and Golden Freeza being equals, base Goku's speed is somehow even with Golden Freeza's? Seems like, to me, you're the one suggesting speed doesn't increase with transformations.

I'm suggesting it might not be as simple as one being rendered unable to do anything by the fact that someone is more powerful than them. If it were that simple, then Freeza should have speedblitzed Goku down before he had a chance to do anything. If it were that simple, then Goku would have chosen to transform from the start.

This isn't something I used to believe; I've in fact argued the opposite in this thread before. But that simplicity has since become harder to maintain.

[Doctor.]

I'm suggesting it might not be as simple as one being rendered unable to do anything by the fact that someone is more powerful than you.

Then however strong you believe Goku's base to be is arbitrary.

If it were that simple, then Freeza should have speedblitzed Goku down before he had a chance to do anything. If it were that simple, then Goku would have chosen to transform from the start.

It was simple Toei theatricality. Golden Freeza = SSB Goku. If base Goku "matched" Freeza's speed, then logically Freeza is suppressing himself for whatever reason.

This isn't something I used to believe, I've in fact argued the opposite in this thread before. But that simplicity has since become harder to maintain.

Regardless of what you believe, it adds nothing to the debate about how strong Goku's base is supposed to be because, like I stated above, it's arbitrary to place Goku in a certain tier with information impossible to qualify.

[ekrolo2]

Can someone explain to me how skill and tactics save people from being smashed? I'm sorry, but even if you gave 10 cavemen a strategy devised by the son of Paton and Rommel, that's not gonna make their skulls explode any less instantly when Master Chief speed blitzes them and rips their heads to shreds with a punch.

That's the problem with everyone trying to underplay Kuririn's achievements against base Goku and base Gohan. You won't find me someone who seriously believes a Saiyan arc Kuririn could push around final form Freeza the way DBS Kuririn pushed around a supposedly God-tier Goku and Gohan just because of "tactics" and "strategy." Tactics overcomes a small power gap, not a fuckhuge one, that's the way Dragon Ball has always worked, and people are asking us to ignore that just so that we believe that "Goku and Vegeta's base are totally super strong, believe it, for real, they're just getting pounded by literally everyone because, uh, teamwork and tactics, even though they should be able to blitz."

I think I could buy the tactics if they were actually designed to make a difference. Like Krillin designs a technique that lets him track people WAY faster then him so he can at least not get blitzed instantly.

When Scott Snyder had Batman fight Flash in Endgame, Batman was in a suit designed to fight the JL and the way he "fights" Flash is a that his suit, along with dozens of super computers that are barely able to calculate Flashes speed release a frictionless coating that knocks Flash off his feet and has his momentum smash him into a nearby building. Batman himself says he's not doing anything, it's the tech he's build around him doing it and he doesn't even realize Flash is down until way after its over. THAT'S how actual strategy and tactics can let someone who should get his spine ripped out in nanoseconds survive against someone way above him.

Krillin just fights better because he fights better.

[Simere]

I'm suggesting it might not be as simple as one being rendered unable to do anything by the fact that someone is more powerful than you.

Then however strong you believe Goku's base to be is arbitrary.

If it were that simple, then Freeza should have speedblitzed Goku down before he had a chance to do anything. If it were that simple, then Goku would have chosen to transform from the start.

It was simple Toei theatricality. Golden Freeza = SSB Goku. If base Goku "matched" Freeza's speed, then logically Freeza is suppressing himself for whatever reason.

This isn't something I used to believe, I've in fact argued the opposite in this thread before. But that simplicity has since become harder to maintain.

Regardless of what you believe, it adds nothing to the debate about how strong Goku's base is supposed to be because, like I stated above, it's arbitrary to place Goku in a certain tier with information impossible to qualify.

Well, I don't believe in throwing my hands up and saying "the writers are stupid", so it does in fact add something for me to be talking about this.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Yeah...exactly. If Freeza could have hit him he would have. Or are you suggesting speed doesn't increase with transformations?

I'm suggesting that regardless of Goku's strength or speed in base form, Freeza is much faster than him. Or are you suggesting that, despite SSB Goku and Golden Freeza being equals, base Goku's speed is somehow even with Golden Freeza's? Seems like, to me, you're the one suggesting speed doesn't increase with transformations.

I'm suggesting it might not be as simple as one being rendered unable to do anything by the fact that someone is more powerful than them. If it were that simple, then Freeza should have speedblitzed Goku down before he had a chance to do anything. If it were that simple, then Goku would have chosen to transform from the start.

This isn't something I used to believe; I've in fact argued the opposite in this thread before. But that simplicity has since become harder to maintain.

The problem with this thinking...and I admit it would make some things easier to reconcile, is that in episode 104 its confirmed SSG increases in speed from SSJ.

By that logic we know 100% transformations increase speed.

[Bullza]

Beerus wasn't being hindered by a suit when he fought Vegeta or Boo, how is this comparable?

Beerus being hindered in a suit isn't gonna stop him from still being able to pack a wallop. His head piece swivelling around isn't going to make a full force punch from him weaker than a flick when he was purposefully suppressing himself.

Gohan kicked Lavenda's ass while blind, both in base and in Super Saiyan. He turned SS when Lavenda started flying and the wolf only got the upper-hand when the poison started kicking in.

He kicked his ass when Lavender got cocky and thought it was over because he couldn't see. He turned Super Saiyan and they fought and Lavender held his own, Gohan was effected by the poison but even then he didn't instantly win or anything.

And if he was stronger than SS3 Gotenks, then fighting numerous characters that wouldn't be able to hold a candle to Mr. Boo at once should be nothing to him. He should have been able to handle all of them at once, but he needed to transform instead. It doesn't matter if he was caught off-guard because he still needed to transform to break Hysopp's ice, instead of simply powering-up in base form and destroy it.

Well there is no "if". He's definitely stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. As they've pointed out this Tournament isn't just about power so Vegeta can have problems with people weaker than him. Krillin or Roshi shouldn't have been able to hold a candle but they did.

There's nothing to say Vegeta had to transform to break the ice. He transformed to quickly overwhelm his opponents, that's it.

Vegeta is about as strong as Cabba and he easily beat two warriors himself with no effort one of which being the strongest modified warrior.

[Doctor.]

Well, I don't believe in throwing my hands up and saying "the writers are stupid", so it does in fact add something for me to be talking about this.

I mean, you're arguing against something that is standard Dragon Ball logic. Speed and power scale together unless stated otherwise and, in this case, it wasn't stated otherwise.

I didn't claim the writers were stupid (at least not in this particular example). They didn't write Goku transforming or Freeza knocking base Goku out because they didn't expect fans to over-analyze a scene that was just a set-up to the main part of the fight: the actual clash.

Vegeta is about as strong as Cabba and he easily beat two warriors himself with no effort one of which being the strongest modified warrior.

Yeah, and if Cabba did that to two opponents ganging up on him, then Vegeta should have done the same thing if he was ridiculously stronger like you're claiming.

[Simere]

I'm suggesting that regardless of Goku's strength or speed in base form, Freeza is much faster than him. Or are you suggesting that, despite SSB Goku and Golden Freeza being equals, base Goku's speed is somehow even with Golden Freeza's? Seems like, to me, you're the one suggesting speed doesn't increase with transformations.

I'm suggesting it might not be as simple as one being rendered unable to do anything by the fact that someone is more powerful than them. If it were that simple, then Freeza should have speedblitzed Goku down before he had a chance to do anything. If it were that simple, then Goku would have chosen to transform from the start.

This isn't something I used to believe; I've in fact argued the opposite in this thread before. But that simplicity has since become harder to maintain.

The problem with this thinking...and I admit it would make some things easier to reconcile, is that in episode 104 its confirmed SSG increases in speed from SSJ.

By that logic we know 100% transformations increase speed.

I'm not arguing that base Goku is as fast as Golden Freeza, I'm arguing that being slower doesn't prevent him from keeping up—as 105 just confirmed—and by extension, just because he's keeping up in base, that doesn't necessarily mean his opponent is holding back, to go back to Doctor's claim that Jiren would have to be.

[LowRyder2005]

Can someone explain to me how skill and tactics save people from being smashed? I'm sorry, but even if you gave 10 cavemen a strategy devised by the son of Paton and Rommel, that's not gonna make their skulls explode any less instantly when Master Chief speed blitzes them and rips their heads to shreds with a punch.

That's the problem with everyone trying to underplay Kuririn's achievements against base Goku and base Gohan. You won't find me someone who seriously believes a Saiyan arc Kuririn could push around final form Freeza the way DBS Kuririn pushed around a supposedly God-tier Goku and Gohan just because of "tactics" and "strategy." Tactics overcomes a small power gap, not a fuckhuge one, that's the way Dragon Ball has always worked, and people are asking us to ignore that just so that we believe that "Goku and Vegeta's base are totally super strong, believe it, for real, they're just getting pounded by literally everyone because, uh, teamwork and tactics, even though they should be able to blitz."

Well, the Krillin vs. Gohan/Goku fight is rendered in a rather bizarre fashion - compared to what we've factored in since the dawn of Dragon Ball - regardless of however strong Goku is intended to be. Rollback to some episodes before and a punch from base Goku sends Krillin flying across kilometers; in the current arc, Krillin makes a point about base Gohan pulling his punches (which still reduce him to a ragdoll, similarly to what happened with base Goku), but then "with clever tactics" he can get an apparent edge and achieve physical feats on some unbelievable grander scale than before: like almost ringing out base Goku and even Super Saiyan Goku; in that regard, it's more like they're implying some fundamental rules about fighting changed - or could change - or a case of severe plot-induced stupidity on Goku's part (or both, technically speaking). In the DB we knew a guy can't move whoever is 2, 3 or 4 times stronger with punches, much less by quickly conjuring some wind.

However, we could definitely agree that if it makes very, very, little sense in case of the old, commonly accepted gaps, it holds even more quizzical implications if you think that base Goku can stomp SS3 Gotenks or is not that far off from SSGodku.

He kicked his ass when Lavender got cocky and thought it was over because he couldn't see. He turned Super Saiyan and they fought and Lavender held his own, Gohan was effected by the poison but even then he didn't instantly win or anything.

There's nothing directly implying Lavenda is going easy on Gohan at any point. Other than that, Lavenda also has no apparent reason to lower his power if not for the sake of dropping his guard gratuitously, as Gohan can't sense him already. Regardless, even if he had dropped his guard momentarily for a Sorbet moment, it'd make no sense to let himself get beat up by a blinded Gohan for twenty seconds straight, finally resorting to zone him out instead of confronting him directly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9-zhaCJHmA

Even if you don't agree with the idea Super Saiyan Gohan is far above Lavenda and that it was only through handicapping base Gohan that Lavenda barely managed to scrape by, you really can't deny that absolutely nothing implies Lavenda is far above base Gohan at all. The only available showings are Gohan being superior to Lavenda even when handicapped.

[ekrolo2]

Can someone explain to me how skill and tactics save people from being smashed? I'm sorry, but even if you gave 10 cavemen a strategy devised by the son of Paton and Rommel, that's not gonna make their skulls explode any less instantly when Master Chief speed blitzes them and rips their heads to shreds with a punch.

That's the problem with everyone trying to underplay Kuririn's achievements against base Goku and base Gohan. You won't find me someone who seriously believes a Saiyan arc Kuririn could push around final form Freeza the way DBS Kuririn pushed around a supposedly God-tier Goku and Gohan just because of "tactics" and "strategy." Tactics overcomes a small power gap, not a fuckhuge one, that's the way Dragon Ball has always worked, and people are asking us to ignore that just so that we believe that "Goku and Vegeta's base are totally super strong, believe it, for real, they're just getting pounded by literally everyone because, uh, teamwork and tactics, even though they should be able to blitz."

Well, the Krillin vs. Gohan/Goku fight is rendered in a rather bizarre fashion - compared to what we've factored in since the dawn of Dragon Ball - regardless of however strong Goku is intended to be. Rollback to some episodes before and a punch from base Goku sends Krillin flying across kilometers; in the current arc, Krillin makes a point about base Gohan pulling his punches (which still reduce him to a ragdoll, similarly to what happened with base Goku), but then "with clever tactics" he can get an apparent edge and achieve physical feats on some unbelievable grander scale than before: like almost ringing out base Goku and even Super Saiyan Goku; in that regard, it's more like they're implying some fundamental rules that the fighting changed or a case of severe plot-induced stupidity on Goku's part (or both, technically). In the DB we knew a guy can't move whoever is 2, 3 or 4 times stronger with punches, much less by creating some wind.

However, we could definitely agree that if it makes very, very, little sense in case of the old, commonly accepted gaps, it holds even more quizzical implications if you think that base Goku can stomp SS3 Gotenks or is not that far off from SSGodku.

See, pulling their punches this both does and doesn't make sense. It does for the fight to happen at all but it doesn't since those fights are there to show off the competition and what Krillin has waiting for him. It also doesn't work for the other contestants, unless everyone from the other universes is a murderous psycho who's first instinct is to kill, how can Krillin or anyone besides Goku, Vegeta and Freeza last at all in this tournament? In the old stuff, we have plenty of evidence where a stronger person can smash a weaker one without killing them.

[Bullza]

therefore, if we want to apply an in-universe rationale, there's definitely the possibility Beerus was keeping a lower power output and getting excited because he had to fight with such a handicap.

Which would then be the downplay that I was referring to.

I believe prior to fighting Vegeta he beat everyone without actually punching them. He casually punched Vegeta once and that was it, when he snapped. He hit Goku and was clearly more serious than in any of those previous fights.

So an excited Beerus would be thrown full force punches weaker than the pokes and taps that he casually did when he was hugely suppressed beforehand?

Whis stopped that fight because it was going to destroy Earth and he did not stop previous fights because they weren't serious enough.

Gohan is stated to have lost the "power" by the time he faces Piccolo, not immediately after the Buu saga

What Piccolo says exactly

"That power you used when you fought Buu".

Not Beerus but Buu. When they showed the flashback of when he had that power previously they showed when he was about to fight Buu and not Beerus.

He didn't even have the bang when he fought Beerus. Not to mention it also wouldn't make much sense for him to still have that power in the four years between Buu and Beerus and then he just happened to lose it in the fifth year. It's not like he stopped training after Beerus, he'd stopped training after Buu.

but entirely your interpretations of a scene in which Goku sees base Vegeta and states the size (or quality, or whatever they talk about whenever ki is brought up) of his ki was much different than what he remembered.

It's hardly my interpretation. He wasn't at a level he could sense God Ki during the Battle of Gods saga but was after training. He wasn't at a level previously where he was able to spar with Whis but later was able to while he was in Base. Goku saw him and said he had grown so much stronger that he didn't recognise him even though he saw how powerful he was when he fought Beerus because he was there watching them fight.

Base Vegeta was hit by Beerus' foot and was blasted at when they said it was his unrestrained Ki and he stayed conscious whereas Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta was knocked unconscious with a poke to the head.

Those things were either said or shown to have happened.

it's highly illogical for Goku to multiply his power dozens of times and then power down below his own base form.

He turned Super Saiyan Blue when he fought Krillin and fired a Kamehameha that was able to match Krillin's. I wouldn't say that it's all that illogical because Base Goku could surely outmatch Krillin's Kamehameha if he really had to.

[LowRyder2005]

That's the problem with everyone trying to underplay Kuririn's achievements against base Goku and base Gohan. You won't find me someone who seriously believes a Saiyan arc Kuririn could push around final form Freeza the way DBS Kuririn pushed around a supposedly God-tier Goku and Gohan just because of "tactics" and "strategy." Tactics overcomes a small power gap, not a fuckhuge one, that's the way Dragon Ball has always worked, and people are asking us to ignore that just so that we believe that "Goku and Vegeta's base are totally super strong, believe it, for real, they're just getting pounded by literally everyone because, uh, teamwork and tactics, even though they should be able to blitz."

Well, the Krillin vs. Gohan/Goku fight is rendered in a rather bizarre fashion - compared to what we've factored in since the dawn of Dragon Ball - regardless of however strong Goku is intended to be. Rollback to some episodes before and a punch from base Goku sends Krillin flying across kilometers; in the current arc, Krillin makes a point about base Gohan pulling his punches (which still reduce him to a ragdoll, similarly to what happened with base Goku), but then "with clever tactics" he can get an apparent edge and achieve physical feats on some unbelievable grander scale than before: like almost ringing out base Goku and even Super Saiyan Goku; in that regard, it's more like they're implying some fundamental rules that the fighting changed or a case of severe plot-induced stupidity on Goku's part (or both, technically). In the DB we knew a guy can't move whoever is 2, 3 or 4 times stronger with punches, much less by creating some wind.

However, we could definitely agree that if it makes very, very, little sense in case of the old, commonly accepted gaps, it holds even more quizzical implications if you think that base Goku can stomp SS3 Gotenks or is not that far off from SSGodku.

See, pulling their punches this both does and doesn't make sense. It does for the fight to happen at all but it doesn't since those fights are there to show off the competition and what Krillin has waiting for him. It also doesn't work for the other contestants, unless everyone from the other universes is a murderous psycho who's first instinct is to kill, how can Krillin or anyone besides Goku, Vegeta and Freeza last at all in this tournament? In the old stuff, we have plenty of evidence where a stronger person can smash a weaker one without killing them.

In general, I think we can all agree that the tournament is a big subversion and almost a factor of complete estrangement compared to what we knew; apparently, I think the implication is that even using your full power for a little in your given form is supposed to be some sort of risky tactic that can leave you without stamina in the long run (then again, is taking actual damage supposed to be better?). Honestly, I'm just as clueless as anyone else.

Honestly, the entire premise of the tournament and the need of "weak" fighters in itself is already irreconcilable with the Dragon Ball of old by itself, so I'm just factoring it out entirely. I'm still not on boat with the idea that the maximum gaps that fill the role of basic conditions for the slugfests we saw can be as large as some others believe, still (say "Hop vs. Vegeta" we'd be talking about characters that by ganging up can beat one character who is, what, 50, 100, 200 times stronger or something like that? If that's the case then everything from Goku vs. Krillin onwards is its own little universe already, why power-scale it to something that followed "different" rules?).

[Bullza]

Yeah, and if Cabba did that to two opponents ganging up on him, then Vegeta should have done the same thing if he was ridiculously stronger like you're claiming.

Why? He's already as strong as Cabba so all it would mean is that either the Universe 9 fighters were even stronger than the ones Cabba defeated or Vegeta had trouble because others kept intervening or both.

He held his own in Base form against four different fighters who barely landed a hit on him. The moment he fought Hop one on one he beat her within seconds.

What's the problem? Is it because he and Goku didn't knock them all down in the same way Cabba did? Wouldn't that have made for a terrible episode?

[Marlowe89]

Leaving ROF aside, since like said many times nobody is really discussing that

Another thing I'd like to add to this part of your post is that the first two arcs of Super were chiefly adaptations of an adaptation, e.g. the films. Toshio specifically remarked on Twitter that the writing team aims to make their power-scaling consistent with Toriyama's views, but if they were going by that then at the time they were probably basing everything from the narrative established in the movies where base Goku was very clearly proven to be no weaker than Super Saiyan God, even though we know that's obviously not the case currently.

And this is just for the sake of the argument, but if instead of doing lame-ass movie retellings that frankly shouldn't have existed to begin with, the new series simply picked up where RoF left off and additionally the Copy Vegeta arc either never existed or was written in a manner more conscious of the overarching storyline (it's not like any of that shit likely came from Toriyama anyway) -- or in other words, if ALL arcs in Super were exclusively based on Toriyama's own drafts for the show -- there's no way in hell anyone can convince me that people would have been ranking base Goku over Gotenks. Everyone would've just placed him marginally above his start-of-BoG self with very little debate to be had, since his only explicit battle feats at that point would include the likes of himself and Vegeta being outperformed by 18 or characters around Basil's level.

I mean, if people want to insist on believing Goku and Vegeta are that strong in their base forms, whatever, that's fine, I'm not going to take that away from them. I wouldn't even blame them for it; they have every right to believe that if that's what the show implied at a particular point in time. But these "waaaaah you guys are downplaying!" outcries do nothing more than represent a bullshit ad hominem non-response with absolutely nothing valuable to contribute to the discussion at all since they're almost always attributable to people using deliberately obtuse arguments and, yes, mental gymnastics that have been repeatedly addressed and shut down more times than I can count. Arguments like "Goku survived Sidra's Hakai energy that made Golden Frieza sweat!" and "Goku could keep up with Golden Frieza's speed!" are utterly worthless because the narrative already makes it clear that the difference between Golden Frieza and base Goku is monumental regardless. The latter isn't going to "keep up" with the former in any capacity whatsoever, so it's a moot point.

Personally, as far as I'm concerned the anime staff's writing team has always attempted to be consistent with Toriyama's intentions for the new show's power-scaling, massively screwed up since they weren't directly working with any drafts for BoG/RoF/Potaufeu, and are quite clearly on a course-correction now considering the available evidence at hand in the current arc. That's pretty much how I see it and my opinion on that isn't going to change unless/until there's a clear-cut battle feat in the tournament that disproves everything the arc has led us to believe from all those other clear-cut battle feats -- but even if that happened, then I'd just say that the writing is perpetually inconsistent.

[LowRyder2005]

therefore, if we want to apply an in-universe rationale, there's definitely the possibility Beerus was keeping a lower power output and getting excited because he had to fight with such a handicap.

Which would then be the downplay that I was referring to.

I believe prior to fighting Vegeta he beat everyone without actually punching them. He casually punched Vegeta once and that was it, when he snapped. He hit Goku and was clearly more serious than in any of those previous fights.

So an excited Beerus would be thrown full force punches weaker than the pokes and taps that he casually did when he was hugely suppressed beforehand?

Whis stopped that fight because it was going to destroy Earth and he did not stop previous fights because they weren't serious enough.

Whis stopped the fighting because it was plausibly his duty, not because he was the only person around who could; and since a character can blow up the Earth with a power level of 18,000 and even the weakest base Saiyan in Super could destroy the Earth by fighting carelessly, this kind of argument is pretty much unrelated.

Regarding Beerus: following your own rationale why not? Goku throws punches and bothers parrying Roshi's blows when he can tank SS3 Gotenks. As long as you keep your ki below a treshold you can fight evenly with anyone and even get excited or angry if something happens, à la Goku vs. Freeza on Namek; the point of BOG was that Beerus wanted to go all-out and fight Goku, which doesn't really apply here as Beerus holds no similar interest (and he's also trying to keep his costume intact, his identity secret, and at least in the beginning caring probably about Goku's well-being, among other things).
Although, to be impartial, Beerus does say he'd also like to conclude that swiftly at whichever, heavily suppressed, level of power he deemed suitable under those particular conditions.

What Piccolo says exactly

"That power you used when you fought Buu".

Not Beerus but Buu. When they showed the flashback of when he had that power previously they showed when he was about to fight Buu and not Beerus.

This is pretty much an irrelevant "false dilemma" type of (fallacious) argument. As far as we know he could've also said "the power you used when you fought Beerus": this is like saying that if I tell everyone you are an alumnus from "Saint Martin's High School" you cannot also be an alumnus of "Saint Martin's Junior High".

If you want a more DB-esque example, it's the typical argument you find during the Buu vs. Buu wars on the internet. It usually sounds like this: "Goku said to Buu that Gohan could now take him on = it means Goku himself can't take him on". No, it just means that Gohan can take him on and, unless noted, nothing more than that.

It's hardly my interpretation. He wasn't at a level he could sense God Ki during the Battle of Gods saga but was after training. He wasn't at a level previously where he was able to spar with Whis but later was able to while he was in Base. Goku saw him and said he had grown so much stronger that he didn't recognise him even though he saw how powerful he was when he fought Beerus because he was there watching them fight.

Base Vegeta was hit by Beerus' foot and was blasted at when they said it was his unrestrained Ki and he stayed conscious whereas Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta was knocked unconscious with a poke to the head.

Those things were either said or shown to have happened.

You basically keep bringing up Beerus every time, but every time Beerus does anything fight-related he's suppressed his ki to some unknown degree before. We cannot start off the assumption that every time he's on screen and does something he's above his BOG self unless noted.
Other than that, I would probably concede their base was supposed to be that strong on the premise Goku and Vegeta could feel godly ki - which is a compelling argument, in fact - but it can be justified by Saiyan Beyond God being a separate state (among other hypotheticals). Since, overall, I'm very inclined to believe that their base form's strength has been changed (or that Saiyan Beyond God exists as a separate state that's been put on the shelf), it doesn't really change much for me.

He turned Super Saiyan Blue when he fought Krillin and fired a Kamehameha that was able to match Krillin's. I wouldn't say that it's all that illogical because Base Goku could surely outmatch Krillin's Kamehameha if he really had to.

Which is a completely different context. We already know that Krillin is inferior to base Gohan, so we can easily infer that SSB did undergo this type of extreme and unusual suppression (since Goku indirectly makes a point about showing off his SSB as some scare tactic to test Krillin's resolve, it's also made quite apparent to the viewer he's not transforming because he needs to); you cannot juxtapose the same conditions of that fight to Gohan vs. Goku, since the natural assumption is that Goku transforms because whatever transformation he chooses is normally grants him power at least sligthly superior to that of his base form every other time. Otherwise it's the same as arguing that just because a character lied one time we should normally assume there's a high chance he or she might be lying every time.

[...]

Amen to that.

[Bullza]

Whis stopped the fighting because it was plausibly his duty, not because he was the only person around who could

It's not that he was the only one who could. It was a fight that had to be stopped or the Earth would have been destroyed, in other words it was a fairly serious fight between Goku and Beerus.

Whis did not have to stop any fight in the Battle of Gods saga because no other fight was serious enough for it to require him stopping it which of course makes sense because Beerus never seemed remotely serious fighting anybody.

Goku throws punches and bothers parrying Roshi's blows when he can tank SS3 Gotenks.

That's Goku though and a powered up Roshi. He said that fights are most fun when two people are at the same level when he fought Cell. Beerus is different and doesn't seem to do things the same way, he didn't do such a thing when he fought those in the Battle of Gods saga he just played around with them, hardly even fought at all because they were so weak.

Very different from how he got himself all excited fighting Goku when he wanted to out a stop to him quickly so he didn't find out his lie. Why not just poke him at the start and end it?

As far as we know he could've also said "the power you used when you fought Beerus"

They could have said that but they didn't. They could have showed a flashback of him during the Battle of Gods saga but they didn't. They could have given Gohan the trademark Ultimate hair bang but they didn't.

They purposefully showed and referred to the time when he was without doubt Ultimate Gohan during his fight with Buu. He then reclaimed that power and with it then same appearance he had when he last Buu.

There wasn't anything to suggest he was Ultimate Gohan in the Battle of Gods saga not would it make much sense with the story anyway when he'd been out of training for years by that point.

You basically keep bringing up Beerus every time, but every time Beerus does anything fight-related he's suppressed his ki to some unknown degree before.

Well it's just what happened, he hit them in his sleep. He blasted them point blank when he was half asleep and they said it almost killed them. Vegeta said he doesn't bother to hold back when he's asleep and Goku said they were hit by his unrestrained Ki.

They took that and survived and stayed awake whereas a tap to neck put Super Saiyan 3 Goku out and a poke to the head took Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta out when he was at 10% or less with Goku. That's because they were stronger than before.

Which is a completely different context.

It is but they can do it. Maybe in that instance it was just inconsistent. It happens, it happened with Z plenty of times so it can happen with Super just the same. It doesn't mean that they retconned a significant plot point just because of a few odd moments in filler in a hundred plus episode show written by half a dozen different people.

[LowRyder2005]

It's not that he was the only one who could. It was a fight that had to be stopped or the Earth would have been destroyed, in other words it was a fairly serious fight between Goku and Beerus.

Whis did not have to stop any fight in the Battle of Gods saga because no other fight was serious enough for it to require him stopping it which of course makes sense because Beerus never seemed remotely serious fighting anybody.

And again, how is that supposed to help us in establishing anything? It means only they were getting out of control at whathever level they were in. If Saiyan Arc Vegeta, with his measly 18,000, got out of control some of his actions might've destroyed the planet all the same.
Like I said, from an in-universe standpoint we're just arguing over possible implications. Whis only stopped them because they were out of control, not because of their power level treshold meant something. You'd have a point if they said they were about to "bust the universe", for example, which is admittedly something SS3 Goku from BOG couldn't really achieve.

That's Goku though and a powered up Roshi. He said that fights are most fun when two people are at the same level when he fought Cell. Beerus is different and doesn't seem to do things the same way, he didn't do such a thing when he fought those in the Battle of Gods saga he just played around with them, hardly even fought at all because they were so weak.

Very different from how he got himself all excited fighting Goku when he wanted to out a stop to him quickly so he didn't find out his lie. Why not just poke him at the start and end it?

... Who would these people be, exactly?
I hope you realize your logic is taking you towards the idea we all should assume Roshi was powered up hundreds of thousands if not millions of times (since you're now trying to say that this powered-up Roshi is stronger than SS3 Gotenks), making Yurin's magic arguably far stronger than the power-up granted by a Super Saiyan God and such. Or, at best - by thinking of the non-possessed Roshi as an individual able to take down someone like Namek's Freeza - stronger than SS3.

Assuming we're starting off the premise that the writing could therefore be extremely poor when handling that episode, it doesn't change the fact that if you consider such a claim more reasonable or more grounded in reality than arguing that Goku instead suppressing himself at a level comfortable enough to exchange punches and even get hurt from some attacks (which is not really that different than what Fourth Form Freeza did against Goku on Namek), I don't really know what to add.
Other than that, like I said, the previous phenomenology of the fights already accounts for many combats in which one guy suppresses his ki and engages in a slugfest on apparent equal terms (Freeza vs. Goku, Cell vs. Goku, Dabra vs. SS Gohan). Regarding the reason why Goku didn't immediately poke Roshi's lights out (which he could still do even in your scenario, unless you are again arguing this possessed Roshi is far above SS3 Gotenks), I can't really say, but chances are he probably didn't gauge Roshi 100% accurately, much like Tien did -- since the latter thought he could handle Roshi and got trashed.

They could have said that but they didn't. They could have showed a flashback of him during the Battle of Gods saga but they didn't. They could have given Gohan the trademark Ultimate hair bang but they didn't.

They purposefully showed and referred to the time when he was without doubt Ultimate Gohan during his fight with Buu. He then reclaimed that power and with it then same appearance he had when he last Buu.

Doesn't change nor does it weaken my point in the slightest when I say that "the power you used against Buu" and "the power you used against Beerus" could've easily been the same thing, and that in no way or form does Piccolo using the "power of Buu" make the two things inherently different: as I previously stated this is not a theory or a supposition, this is a complete false dichotomy that doesn't actually make any logical sense whatsoever.

Purely as a side note, I also stand by my reason that, since the producers of BOG said they chose that period of Z because "everyone was at their strongest" I'm personally inclined to think this also could apply to Super without issue.

There wasn't anything to suggest he was Ultimate Gohan in the Battle of Gods saga not would it make much sense with the story anyway when he'd been out of training for years by that point.

Like I explained in my previous post, he *is* Ultimate Gohan in the movie rendition of BOG beyond any doubt, he's supposed to be at his peak per some official-ish word, and that Gohan loses that form between BOG and ROF is quite the important plot point in the movie continuity. Since BOG and ROF adapted those scenarios, and they did it even before the subplot of going through the process of regaining Ultimate was envisioned, it's just the most natural assumption that these relatively major plot points would follow suit (especially given that there's nothing that actually contradicts it). The chance that they didn't write those BOG-related scenes with Ultimate Gohan in mind is, to put it mildly, very remote; if we want to talk about a retcon that casually works on a visual level only because of a completely incidental change in Gohan's hairstyle between the movie and Super (he has the bang in one and he's bangless in the other), on the other hand, it might be a more honest way to put it.

Well it's just what happened, he hit them in his sleep. He blasted them point blank when he was half asleep and they said it almost killed them. Vegeta said he doesn't bother to hold back when he's asleep and Goku said they were hit by his unrestrained Ki.

They took that and survived and stayed awake whereas a tap to neck put Super Saiyan 3 Goku out and a poke to the head took Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta out when he was at 10% or less with Goku. That's because they were stronger than before.

I hope you can throw me something concrete on that power instead of more guesswork, then, because it's the same argument that Beerus needs to be at some percentage over my abitrary level of a "non-serious" Beerus compared to your arbitrary level of a "non-serious" Beerus. If he's at some "non 100%" percentage (and he is), he can also be at some really low(er) percentage Base Goku or Base Vegeta can handle. Yes, also in his sleep. There's not an objectively established notion on the power level of the attacks Beerus ultimately dished out in that occasion when dreaming he was killing a pudding or something; it might be that instead of being more powerful like you are claiming or what we can infer from Vegeta's words, he might in reality have bene less formidable than usual, in which case there's no narrative contradiction to speak of.

Hence, even if Vegeta states Beerus doesn't hold back when sleeping, not "consciously restraining" himself doesn't mean that every blast of Beerus' has to be a 100% galaxy (universe?) destroyer anyway. But let's go deeper than that: the plot already implies if they were hit by a 100% blow from Beerus, they would've died or whatever, most certainly it's not something they could hypothetically shrug off. Even if Beerus is not making a conscious effort, we can therefore already conclude he's also not shooting at full power, which I'm afraid can also... I mean, it can only be his 0.01% or something, as counter-intuitive and silly as it may sound starting from the premise that Beerus is not making an effort at keeping his ki down. And if he can use such a low output already with this nigh-absurd restrictions, why not something which is - numerically speaking - minimally inferior like a 0.001%, or the approximate level the old base Goku and Vegeta were at? In strict mathematical terms, an increase from 0.001% to 0.01% is tenfold, but in actuality it's like the lightest caress in the world vs. the second-lightest caress in the world, with an extremely tiny increase at least from Beerus' own perspective. In his sleep.

That's why I'm saying Beerus should only be accounted through statements that act as comparisons, or at least not when he's interacting with characters who are already stated to be ants. Now, I know it may sound like a bizarre answer, but if you perceive *sigh* other problems with my position like I think you are, you may as well take your criticism to whoever writes Beerus in such a way, not by contesting me again and again whenever I report the notion that a "serious" Beerus would vaporize any base Goku and saying that I'm not giving them any credit. I'll stress that even if I used "0.001" it was not an hyperbole and not even my opinion, I'm just constantly referencing the extremely obvious notion Beerus is intended to be at minimum some thousands of times, not one or two times, above base Goku. SS2 is already "many tens" and Kaioken on SSB is another *10, meaning that even disregarding the official multipliers and ignoring the power-ups of SS, SS3, God and Blue, Beerus is at least 300 times stronger than Base Goku, actually way more than that and, realistically, many many thousands above him; even if Goku's base was as strong as the Super Saiyan God, in which case the gap is simply at its most ridiculous. It's an insourmuntable consequence of the way Beerus is written, since the gap between base Goku and Beerus doesn't change in any scenario.

Even if we decided to go all the way and claim Beerus unleashed his full 80%, 20%, 10% or even anything stronger than "base Goku's %" (some extremely small value, probably in the range of Beerus' 0.01%), then we all could only sentence that the scene in question contains too much PIS to be properly scaled through (also, but not only) virtue of being first and foremost conceived as a light, probably exaggerated gag, and being contradictory with the rest of the notions from the show.

To be honest, everything of the above is quite an incospicuous and unneeded aside, since regardless of these probably paper-thin, thoughtless scenes I also believe that they truly were pampering the base form to be super powerful in preparation of the "Saiyan Beyond God" debut they were borrowing from the ROF outline (as already said in the previous post); still I needed to hit the nail in the head, since the problem had to entirely to do with the kind of reasoning you kept presenting and not necessarily the possible conclusion.

It is but they can do it. Maybe in that instance it was just inconsistent. It happens, it happened with Z plenty of times so it can happen with Super just the same. It doesn't mean that they retconned a significant plot point just because of a few odd moments in filler in a hundred plus episode show written by half a dozen different people.

Surmising that something "could happen" as in "it has a non-zero chance of happening" doesn't quite cut it as an argument when you're trying to use it to contradict the other person by claiming this non-zero chance may be conclusive evidence on something. The established entire reason Goku goes SSB against Krillin is because of something unrelated to power, and such a notion is presented fairly intuitively through simple power scaling in the same episode. What is also heavily implied is just that Goku wants to see how Krillin will react to the form: the entire implied reason ends therefore with Goku wanting to show Krillin the form, that's the point, and anything that happens thereon from a power-scaling standpoint is irrelevant with this specific set of priorities that normally don't apply, and that a writer furthermore hand-waved to us viewers.

In Gohan's case, Goku has no discernible reason to show off his form (Gohan obviously knows about Super Saiyan) and nothing is apparently left to the viewers' speculation. Unless noted, therefore, we should reach the conclusion he needs to power-up from his full base power like every other time he transformed in battle: to increase his power when staying in his base form cannot do him any more good. Statistically, this happens something like 99% of the time, I suppose. He and Gohan both fight in base form and they're evenly matched: afterwards, instead of taking his supposedly powerful base form up a little notch from an already suppressed state he goes Super Saiyan, and regardless of being suppressed or not, we're supposed to believe he's fighting above his "normal" base form.

There's no much I can say against the argument that "it might be an error" or that "it's inconsistent". Again, though, you're getting here because you're venturing off the extreme end of a faulty logical stance that makes you think you should be double-guessing every time a character powers up when, I'll remind you, going back to what you've previously stated it'd become increasingly easier to accept other less contrived implications you disregarded along the way -- and which I stopped considering only because I preferred to entertain your theories and positions, and not because they actually would make less sense than some of your later claims. Such as "Gotenks might have been too rusty", or "there might be some way to learn to feel god ki unrelated to pure power", both of which you're excluding for the same reason you'd normally exclude a proposition like Goku playing unintelligibly with his power level. Your positions do hold firm contrarian beliefs when neglecting, however, to consider any parallel rationalization involving base Goku and base Vegeta after BOG being anything less than overwhelmingly superior to everything in Z (minus a still-powerful Ultimate Gohan "which absolutely cannot be appearing in BOG" by principle, or not by any logically valid assertion and those above him). Which you label as not being any less than a strict "impossibility", like you yourself put it.
This talk about how the retcon would objectively contradict "a hundred plus episode" in the show is, in turn, definitely an exaggeration. The retcon would surely contradict many of the premises you happen to be following, and it would probably contradict a plot point or two from ROF or the post-BOG, but it's not one could not easily make a case about how the show didn't apparently have much against generating similar headscratchers or apparent retractions on other strength-related issues either (see "how much is Beerus' 10%", or "Goku's SS being almost indistinguishable in power from Super Saiyan God").

[GigaDrill]

The people who argue for the retcon acknowledge that the series has no consistency, we argue for the retcon to try to make sense out of things, not to apply consistency. It's the people who argue otherwise that keep pretending like the writers all agree on how strong the characters are and that every fight in the series makes perfect sense.

still a pretty heavy task to do with a show that was never anything more than a glorified Saturday Sunday morning cartoon designed to introduce more kids to Dragon Ball