Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

The people who argue for the retcon acknowledge that the series has no consistency, we argue for the retcon to try to make sense out of things, not to apply consistency. It's the people who argue otherwise that keep pretending like the writers all agree on how strong the characters are and that every fight in the series makes perfect sense.

still a pretty heavy task to do with a show that was never anything more than a glorified Saturday Sunday morning cartoon designed to introduce more kids to Dragon Ball

However possible, if the point is that "the writers of the show don't really care about consistency because it's a light show", unless the argument is that they categorically cannot ever at least share a very general idea of where Goku and some characters are supposed to stand, this does lend added plausibility and credence to the point he's trying to make.

Actually, it lends credence to his point under both implications, at worst changing Super from a show in which "not everything is absolutely consistent", to a show in which "all of which is shown has a high chance of being completely inconsistent" and which should then be impossible to rationalize. It's not as if this theoretical lack of faith is completely unwarranted, but it's also just a tad premature to pass such an absolute judgement on the nature of what we're seeing as a whole; lots of other things currently do fit with each other, at least on a surface level. If nothing or next to nothing does in actuality, we could eventually reach that conclusion only some time from now.

[Bullza]

And again, how is that supposed to help us in establishing anything? It means only they were getting out of control at whathever level they were in. If Saiyan Arc Vegeta, with his measly 18,000, got out of control some of his actions might've destroyed the planet all the same.

It's got nothing to do with power levels. The two were fighting seriously enough that it required stopping, Krillin even thought that he was angry so it;s unlike previous fights were Beerus was completely calm and in control.

This excited Beerus who was starting to get into his fight was punching Goku in the face and Goku was alright. The same Beerus at below 10% of his power flicked Super Saiyan 3 Goku and bowled his across the planet. That Base Goku could take these shots was as a result of being much stronger than before as the story cleared suggested. It's why he was also stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

I'm not sure what you're argument is here because we know for a fact that Base Goku here was much stronger than before as a Super Saiyan 3 so this Beerus fight was just consistent with that.

Or, at best - by thinking of the non-possessed Roshi as an individual able to take down someone like Namek's Freeza - stronger than SS3.

The possessed Roshi was as strong as he was because of magic. It doesn't really matter how many times stronger he got or how that compares to other power ups or numbers, he was as strong as he was because the plot called for him to be that strong. If that magic called for Roshi to be about as strong as the powered up Goku then that's how it's meant to be. Goku wouldn't have needed to hold back at all if that was the case, except from obviously not trying to kill him.

Otherwise he's weaker than Krillin who is weaker than Android 18.

this is a complete false dichotomy that doesn't actually make any logical sense whatsoever.

Of course it makes sense.

This is Ultimate Gohan with the bang.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

He has a specific appearance in that form.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

This has no such appearance. It does not match the appearance of what we know for a fact is Ultimate Gohan.

Which then naturally makes sense why when he is trying to re-obtain the form they only refer to the time when he actually used it against Buu and only Buu.

Like I explained in my previous post, he *is* Ultimate Gohan in the movie rendition of BOG beyond any doubt

The thing to note about the Battle of Gods movie is that Gohan was possibly not intended to be Ultimate Gohan at all.

There was this whole thing

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Where originally Gohan was drawn as a Super Saiyan but then people complained or something and they had to re-colour him. Considering the movie that came out next made it clear he'd stopped training and could barely use Super Saiyan then this would just be one of the several changes that Toei fixed for the anime version.

Again from a story point of view and just going by Super. He was Ultimate Gohan in Age 774 when he fought Buu then seemingly stopped training after that to focus on his studies but by Age 778 he was still able to turn into Ultimate Gohan just fine but by Age 779 not only could he not do that but his body could barely handle Super Saiyan. That doesn't make much sense at all but does if he just isn't Ultimate Gohan which based on appearances he isn't.

And I'll stop there because it probably took me about 20 minutes to reply to just this amount and there's still a load left and it'll just continue to grow bigger and bigger if we keep adding things. I did read the rest of what you said though.

[Doctor.]

Is this ultimate Gohan?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Evidently not, considering we know Gohan didn't have the form for quite some time before he trained with Piccolo. It's evident that the bang being the decisive factor that distinguishes between base and ultimate was a retcon put in place during the recruitment arc, because it was never a concern before. Outlined eyes symbolized the form, at least until Toei started giving Gohan's normal design the outlined eyes.

[LowRyder2005]

And again, how is that supposed to help us in establishing anything? It means only they were getting out of control at whathever level they were in. If Saiyan Arc Vegeta, with his measly 18,000, got out of control some of his actions might've destroyed the planet all the same.

It's got nothing to do with power levels. The two were fighting seriously enough that it required stopping, Krillin even thought that he was angry so it;s unlike previous fights were Beerus was completely calm and in control.

This excited Beerus who was starting to get into his fight was punching Goku in the face and Goku was alright. The same Beerus at below 10% of his power flicked Super Saiyan 3 Goku and bowled his across the planet. That Base Goku could take these shots was as a result of being much stronger than before as the story cleared suggested. It's why he was also stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

I'm not sure what you're argument is here because we know for a fact that Base Goku here was much stronger than before as a Super Saiyan 3 so this Beerus fight was just consistent with that.

As it was stated many times, my argument fundamentally relies on the fact that the concept of "destroying a planet" in itself doesn't hold this kind of revealing connotation when we try to pinpoint the power level of the two involved from an in-universe perspective.
While the feat of planet busing in itself is handled capriciously as either a small or big feat, the argument "they could destroy a planet, it puts them above SS3 Goku" doesn't make much in-universe sense for the mere reason that, technically, even the weakest fighter from Z can destroy the Earth if they lost control. Such as a berserk Freeza grunt, for instance. I used Saiyan Arc Vegeta with his 18,000 since it's the most famous example -- and a fairly poignant one, with his abysmally (by late Z and Super's standards) low power level.
Crucially enough, it's never mentioned that they can destroy the Earth in some way that other characters at vastly inferior levels cannot (let's say some strange hyperbole like "by batting an eyelid" instead of "with a ki blast") nor that the destruction would be on a much grander scale than usual -- which has to act as an indirect assumption of yours in order for the idea to hold up. We don't really have any concrete comparison which would put definitely them over any arbitrary level in Z. That was what I meant with my "it's not like said they said they could bust a universe" remark.
The most we can deduce in-universe is that they were starting to fight unusually carelessly or that Whis deemed probable they were fighting/ about to fight in such a peculiarly careless fashion that it would've posed the risk of planetary destruction. Which is something that usually doesn't happen (the "particularly careless fighting", in particular, not referring specifically to the "planetary destruction" in itself) even if weaker characters went all-out.

What you (and whoever keeps bringing up the exchange between Monaka-Beerus and Goku) are unconsciously discussing is in truth the writer's intent behind the scene and the eventuality it might scale off the writer's intent from the beginning of BOG, which is something I could easily get behind (the nature of the showings is not purely a gag but has rather a tinge of semi-seriousness); regardless, it still doesn't concern our in-universe non-informative visual feats or the intrinsic obviousness of Whis' statement in the slightest.
Going back to in-universe rationale, Beerus cackling or having some kind of emotional or physical reaction is also equally inconclusive: Freeza was visibly getting angry against Kaioken * 20 Goku, Cell was panting against SS Goku, etcetera. Beerus getting enraged, strictly speaking, might be not any different than someone who plays a videogame with one finger and gets mad without using two hands. Plus, we already know that whichever percentage of Beerus' true power was shown there it had to be extremely low. Comparatively, Beerus might have been using "two fingers" against Goku in BOG for the same arbitrary reasons, simply making his sandbagging act less flashy, whilst also not more severe.

The possessed Roshi was as strong as he was because of magic. It doesn't really matter how many times stronger he got or how that compares to other power ups or numbers, he was as strong as he was because the plot called for him to be that strong. If that magic called for Roshi to be about as strong as the powered up Goku then that's how it's meant to be. Goku wouldn't have needed to hold back at all if that was the case, except from obviously not trying to kill him.

Otherwise he's weaker than Krillin who is weaker than Android 18.

While I don't really deem it probable, I cannot have qualms with that, really. However, my grievance rests within the fact that it doesn't address my point when I say a character could also easily suppress his ki, have slugfests and get any emotional kick out of their fight, as it happens in a fairly high number of famous bouts; like Freeza vs. Goku/ Dabra vs. Gohan/ Perfect Cell vs. Goku or any of the other examples I've used to address your concern on that scene's fundaments. I guess I'll just have to disagree with your interpretation of this particular scene, regardless of how the concept might be handled. Roshi may be that strong but he also may not be.

Of course it makes sense.

This is Ultimate Gohan with the bang.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

He has a specific appearance in that form.

The fact it "could" make sense doesn't make your argument the absolute truth. I'll stress that you presented an argument that Piccolo using a formula "the power you used against Buu" was a means to logically prove that "the power he used against Buu" couldn't categorically be "the power he used against Beerus". This simply doesn't make, in reality, any logical sense. Gohan can have the same power against both Beerus and Buu and Piccolo could've used indiscriminately both formulas.

Again, I strongly encourage you to take a little time in reading what a false dichotomy is, because I'm not sure we're quite on the same boat with that. Plus, as you can see above, later you see a base Gohan with the bang (never mind that in the 2014's BOG Gohan already has the bang all the time); in all likelihood, the visual cue started to become a thing only since ep. 88. In-universe, it's literally a case of how Gohan's hair is styled under different conditions, which would follow many variables but most importantly wasn't even consistent in the first place, at bare minimum during that time.

The thing to note about the Battle of Gods movie is that Gohan was possibly not intended to be Ultimate Gohan at all.

Where originally Gohan was drawn as a Super Saiyan but then people complained or something and they had to re-colour him. Considering the movie that came out next made it clear he'd stopped training and could barely use Super Saiyan then this would just be one of the several changes that Toei fixed for the anime version.

Again from a story point of view and just going by Super. He was Ultimate Gohan in Age 774 when he fought Buu then seemingly stopped training after that to focus on his studies but by Age 778 he was still able to turn into Ultimate Gohan just fine but by Age 779 not only could he not do that but his body could barely handle Super Saiyan. That doesn't make much sense at all but does if he just isn't Ultimate Gohan which based on appearances he isn't.

I've already stated the reasons why I think it's rather improbable in the previous post. Regarding the "people vs. Super Saiyan Gohan" tidbit, the point wasn't that Gohan couldn't use Super Saiyan, it was that his Ultimate form bypassed the need of going Super Saiyan: the producers acknowledged it on Twitter and they changed that Gohan. Combo-ed with the fact that the producers of the movie directly said that everyone is at some sort of peak when BOG takes place, it makes the claim - if not a certainty - at the very least surely the most reasonable assumption by far.

I do get that it'd be a pretty random decrease; however, I'm simply filling the blanks starting from the official statements. I'll also remind you that you had started this with an "Ultimate Gohan cannot be in BOG (movie or anime)".

And I'll stop there because it probably took me about 20 minutes to reply to just this amount and there's still a load left and it'll just continue to grow bigger and bigger if we keep adding things. I did read the rest of what you said though.

That's fair, but I still think that the way this exchange went should make you go back and reflect at the very least on some of your premises and rationale.

Is this ultimate Gohan?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Evidently not, considering we know Gohan didn't have the form for quite some time before he trained with Piccolo. It's evident that the bang being the decisive factor that distinguishes between base and ultimate was a retcon put in place during the recruitment arc, because it was never a concern before. Outlined eyes symbolized the form, at least until Toei started giving Gohan's normal design the outlined eyes.

Funnily enough, he doesn't even display the "spiky + bang" hairdo immediately after he apparently stops his first training with Piccolo. In Super, the Gohan with the bang suddenly appears for the first time exactly during Trunks' farewell and he's in base form, Gohan then dons his bangless look every time he reappears in base and the bang returns as a visual cue for the Ultimate transformation starting from ep. 88.

[Hugo Boss]

Can someone summarize in the most objective way what theories are being discussed currently? And adding their main points and counterpoints? If you are not familiar with all the theories you can leave the task to other members.

[Lord Beerus]

Not really much to get out of the episode:
- The sniper was taken out quickly by Tien from a single Kikoho
- The sniper was shown to have laser sniper attacks powerful enough to cut off Piccolo's limbs and cut Vegeta's face
- The big blob like character, who acted as an aid for the sniper is finding targets for him, could bounce back attacks Buyon-style
- Dr Rota (Universe 6) got taken out by the sniper and seemed dead but came back fine and dandy later.

[CJStriker_CBR]

Not really much to get out of the episode:
- The sniper was taken out quickly by Tien from a single Kikoho
- The sniper was shown to have laser sniper attacks powerful enough to cut off Piccolo's limbs and cut Vegeta's face
- The big blob like character, who acted as an aid for the sniper is finding targets for him, could bounce back attacks Buyon-style
- Dr Rota (Universe 6) got taken out by the sniper and seemed dead but came back fine and dandy later.

I Honestly Wonder how Far they could have gone if Killing was allowed in this, I am not saying I want Killing but this Attack reminded me of The Predator Alien Movie Franchise and Anyone that has Played Multiplayer on any Call of Duty Game against or as a sniper, lots of memories their.

[Miracles]

It's clear that there are fundamental differences between the way we all interpret what the show is giving us.

Everyon thinks that their own way is the right way, and that everyone else is flawed somehow.

No matter how many justifications and theories we come up with, unless the show or the showrunners completely clarify it themselves, we're left just speculating. So what do you guys suppose it'll take to put an end to the more obsessive debates and disagreements regarding power-scaling, the importance of power, etc.? And what do you guys think we'll ACTUALLY get?

For example, a guidebook with power rankings is probably more feasible than the show itself explicitly confirming anything beyond clear power narratives like how Jiren is stronger than everyone else, even in their god forms. What do you guys want, and what do you expect?

I expect that the show will continue the current trend of playing up specific skills, abilities, etc., and only loosely apply power like when a character transforms to clearly identify an increase in power.

I want the show to have some offhand comments in-show about how having a higher power level doesn't mean you can instantly knock out someone or tank their hits.

That's the thing. The show is clear, it's people misunderstanding it or not acknowledging the scaling cause they simply don't like it.

[Lord Frieza]

I have pointed out befor that maiming is not an issue in the tournamant, as longas they dont die, which could only be limited to while their in the ring, then you could cut of your foes arms and legs in the tournamant and as long as they dont bleed out befor ring out you should be safe.

[Animelover5487]

Not really much to get out of the episode:
- The sniper was taken out quickly by Tien from a single Kikoho
- The sniper was shown to have laser sniper attacks powerful enough to cut off Piccolo's limbs and cut Vegeta's face
- The big blob like character, who acted as an aid for the sniper is finding targets for him, could bounce back attacks Buyon-style
- Dr Rota (Universe 6) got taken out by the sniper and seemed dead but came back fine and dandy later.

Agreed. Another non-power related episode for the most part. It's funny how this is called the Tournament of Power when it's tactics and technique that have mainly been highlighted.

[LowRyder2005]

It's clear that there are fundamental differences between the way we all interpret what the show is giving us.

Everyon thinks that their own way is the right way, and that everyone else is flawed somehow.

No matter how many justifications and theories we come up with, unless the show or the showrunners completely clarify it themselves, we're left just speculating. So what do you guys suppose it'll take to put an end to the more obsessive debates and disagreements regarding power-scaling, the importance of power, etc.? And what do you guys think we'll ACTUALLY get?

For example, a guidebook with power rankings is probably more feasible than the show itself explicitly confirming anything beyond clear power narratives like how Jiren is stronger than everyone else, even in their god forms. What do you guys want, and what do you expect?

I expect that the show will continue the current trend of playing up specific skills, abilities, etc., and only loosely apply power like when a character transforms to clearly identify an increase in power.

I want the show to have some offhand comments in-show about how having a higher power level doesn't mean you can instantly knock out someone or tank their hits.

That's the thing. The show is clear, it's people misunderstanding it or not acknowledging the scaling cause they simply don't like it.

More like "the show would be clear after 100+ episodes with an added thirty minutes clip-show entirely composed of exposition". No offense, since I'm assuming you truly believe that and are probably in good faith, but the show being crystal clear and the problem being entirely on the fan's part is, I think, the grossest misrepresentation I've seen so far. And that's saying something, given what we've read here.

Let's say that we made an experiment and each of us watched only some of Super's episodes; then we all recompiled a more comprehensive chart by compiling all our limited informations. The "face value" thingie, with minimum viewer's interposition and broader contextual implications, would probably look something like this:

[spoiler]Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Super Saiyan God >=< Ultimate Gohan (Buu Arc) > Base Goku > Piccolo > Super Saiyan 2 Gohan > Super Saiyan Gohan = Super Saiyan Goku >=< Super Saiyan God > Super Saiyan Goku > Krillin (end his episode) > Base Goku = Base Gohan > Krillin (start of his April episode) > Roshi > Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks[/spoiler]

I'd like to know if classifies as the show being clear and not the show leaving us with dozens of apparently contradictory implications, according to you.

I want also to stress that even assuming that the base forms somehow become superior to their Buu Arc counterparts (as in a *10, or *20 increase) and that there's no intrinsical difference between the base form seen the show still can't work without assuming some of the following:
- That SS3 Gotenks became far weaker, which isn't said nor is it put in a way that we can deduce it from the context.
- That we need to go all the way to "retcon" Buu arc Ultimate Gohan as dwarfing Gotenks' strength in the order of some hundreds of times, with Majin Buu's absorptions following some "rule" that makes him his power jump 1,000 times the first time and 1,1 times afterwards. Notwitstanding the original manga and anime implied the distance between the two wasn't that much.

Or, as someone else proposed, that Goku could power up from "suppressed base to suppressed Super Saiyan (that's occasionally inferior to his real base)" -- but I have a hard time finding it as a more complicated and less discernible variation of the "two-base" approach. Besides, it still wouldn't corroborate the claim that the show is supposed to be easily understandable and digestible when trying to establish who's stronger than whom.

If I can also loosen my "politically correct" tie a little (just one moment, mind ya)? The immediate impression I get from the people who dish out the "it all makes sense, you are the problem" argument, or any variation of it, is that they simple do not keep up with the show, or do not reflect on the logic on what the most subtle, contingent implications of their arguments would involve -- that still wouldn't make the show "simple to understand", not even on the same acceptable level the original Dragon Ball was.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

For this episode thus far, no real issues.

Hermila's attacks were focused energy blasts like Piccolo's Makankosappo, if the Crunchyroll subs are to be believed, and this was mostly a battle of skill and tactics.

Also, Piccolo is officially the body jobber now. Want to establish how threatening someone is to our heroes? Just blow a hole through Piccolo, or rip off some of his limbs! He'll be fine, he can regenerate

[Bullza]

People have already pointed out the obvious I guess.

One thing to note is that they did have some strength feats in this episode. After all that's not just a huge chunk of rock they're throwing around is it? That's supposed to be the densest metal in probably all the universes and they were throwing it like it was nothing.

Once again they show some good fighting strategy and intelligence. Super has done a better job than Z for that.

Next episode shows that blue looking alien fighting Dyspo. He was giving Super Saiyan Goku some trouble last episode so he might be stronger than expected.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

People have already pointed out the obvious I guess.

One thing to note is that they did have some strength feats in this episode. After all that's not just a huge chunk of rock they're throwing around is it? That's supposed to be the densest metal in probably all the universes and they were throwing it like it was nothing.

Once again they show some good fighting strategy and intelligence. Super has done a better job than Z for that.

Next episode shows that blue looking alien fighting Dyspo. He was giving Super Saiyan Goku some trouble last episode so he might be stronger than expected.

Jiren has been seen in the NEP as well, and looks to be Maji Kayo's target. Also, Frost could potentially confirm where he falls on the power-scale if the episode is straightforward in that regard. I wouldn't expect it to be, but it's a possibility.

[Bullza]

Jiren has been seen in the NEP as well, and looks to be Maji Kayo's target. Also, Frost could potentially confirm where he falls on the power-scale if the episode is straightforward in that regard. I wouldn't expect it to be, but it's a possibility.

Well Magetta still seems to be on the same general level as Super Saiyan Vegeta like before. Back then Frost was weaker than Magetta, I would doubt that would still be true considering he'll probably be somewhat more significant and Hit did say he improved.

[TAF108]

1. Not disagreeing, just saying that's pretty dumb on Beerus' part. MSSJ Goku by the Beerus arc could literally flick Freeza away. And then this is assuming Beerus is talking about 100% Freeza, considering most people's reference of Freeza's power would be First Form. And he rarely revealed his true form, so it's already a leap in logic to assume Beerus is talking about Freeza at his best. But the idea that MSSJ Goku could take Freeza "at best" is a massive low ball considering how easily he'd win that fight. The gap is absurd.

2. Not really disagreeing here either, to a degree. I'd say 2x is a bit low. It's true she's nothing giant like 10x or something. But considering how easily Freeza was beaten by Trunks, and then how Vegeta was stronger than Trunks and how easily she beat Vegeta. I'd say it's closer to 3 times. I will agree that Super has completely forgotten what gaps were like/supposed to be like.

3. Not gonna disagree here either. Personally, I think it's to clustered to even try to go one or the other. Though I'd go with the latter.

1. The writers might of did that because after BoG a bunch of people just said it was because Goku was suppressed. Super had Beerus compare ssj Goku to Frieza to shoot that down. And technically Frieza was the best ssj Goku could do because he didn't know of the androids or Cell. It seems he didn't know of Buu either, but ssj Goku couldn't beat Buu at that point anyways.

2. Frieza was killed while suppressed. And it was with a sword and a surprise attack. Also Vegeta beat Dadoria and Qui even easier than Trunks beat Frieza and he was only about 20% stronger than them. Not even 2x.

1. Poor writing then. Makes perfect sense.

2. Was it much of a surprise? Freeza was in a fight. It's not like Trunks attacked Freeza from behind. He fired an attack which Freeza dodged, then he followed up by slicing him in half. If anything, Freeza simply wasn't keeping aware of his surroundings. I don't see the point of the Vegeta comparison, I didn't say Trunks was 2x Freeza. I'm just saying there's such a gap between the Artificial Humans and Freeza that 3x sounds like a more reasonable estimate. Even if you disregard Freeza's death at Trunks' hands, there's still quite a rise in strength from the fight on Namek to 18 & 17 making a joke of the SSJ transformation.

[perucho1990]

For this episode thus far, no real issues.

Hermila's attacks were focused energy blasts like Piccolo's Makankosappo, if the Crunchyroll subs are to be believed, and this was mostly a battle of skill and tactics.

Also, Piccolo is officially the body jobber now. Want to establish how threatening someone is to our heroes? Just blow a hole through Piccolo, or rip off some of his limbs! He'll be fine, he can regenerate

As for now Piccolo confirmed trash.

Tien clones got up without any injury aftertaking Hermilas blasts, even Dr Rota had no injuries.

Roshi might be stronger than Piccolo if he can hold his own vs Frost, who forced Hit to fight him seriously.

[Michsi]

For this episode thus far, no real issues.

Hermila's attacks were focused energy blasts like Piccolo's Makankosappo, if the Crunchyroll subs are to be believed, and this was mostly a battle of skill and tactics.

Also, Piccolo is officially the body jobber now. Want to establish how threatening someone is to our heroes? Just blow a hole through Piccolo, or rip off some of his limbs! He'll be fine, he can regenerate

As for now Piccolo confirmed trash.

Tien clones got up without any injury aftertaking Hermilas blasts, even Dr Rota had no injuries.

Roshi might be stronger than Piccolo if he can hold his own vs Frost, who forced Hit to fight him seriously.

I usually stay clear of power level discussions, but I actually wanted to add my 5 cents to this because I'm curious what people think. We know that they were hiding their energy, meaning pushing down their ki to not be spotted. Shouldn't that affect durability too? Dr Rota and Tien were engaged in battle, meaning their raised power should have offered some protection. Also, specifically in Dr. Rota's case, we see the shot hit the ground. It either just grazed him, or went right through him.

It cut Vegeta's flesh when he wasn't paying attention, so I assume it's safe to say it would've done more damage had it had a better aim.

[dragon boss z]

1. Not disagreeing, just saying that's pretty dumb on Beerus' part. MSSJ Goku by the Beerus arc could literally flick Freeza away. And then this is assuming Beerus is talking about 100% Freeza, considering most people's reference of Freeza's power would be First Form. And he rarely revealed his true form, so it's already a leap in logic to assume Beerus is talking about Freeza at his best. But the idea that MSSJ Goku could take Freeza "at best" is a massive low ball considering how easily he'd win that fight. The gap is absurd.

2. Not really disagreeing here either, to a degree. I'd say 2x is a bit low. It's true she's nothing giant like 10x or something. But considering how easily Freeza was beaten by Trunks, and then how Vegeta was stronger than Trunks and how easily she beat Vegeta. I'd say it's closer to 3 times. I will agree that Super has completely forgotten what gaps were like/supposed to be like.

3. Not gonna disagree here either. Personally, I think it's to clustered to even try to go one or the other. Though I'd go with the latter.

1. The writers might of did that because after BoG a bunch of people just said it was because Goku was suppressed. Super had Beerus compare ssj Goku to Frieza to shoot that down. And technically Frieza was the best ssj Goku could do because he didn't know of the androids or Cell. It seems he didn't know of Buu either, but ssj Goku couldn't beat Buu at that point anyways.

2. Frieza was killed while suppressed. And it was with a sword and a surprise attack. Also Vegeta beat Dadoria and Qui even easier than Trunks beat Frieza and he was only about 20% stronger than them. Not even 2x.

1. Poor writing then. Makes perfect sense.

2. Was it much of a surprise? Freeza was in a fight. It's not like Trunks attacked Freeza from behind. He fired an attack which Freeza dodged, then he followed up by slicing him in half. If anything, Freeza simply wasn't keeping aware of his surroundings. I don't see the point of the Vegeta comparison, I didn't say Trunks was 2x Freeza. I'm just saying there's such a gap between the Artificial Humans and Freeza that 3x sounds like a more reasonable estimate. Even if you disregard Freeza's death at Trunks' hands, there's still quite a rise in strength from the fight on Namek to 18 & 17 making a joke of the SSJ transformation.

Frieza thought he killed Trunks after his first attack. Then Trunks fired a ki blast and Frieza instinctively dodged, but that was part of Trunk's plant and he came down on him as Frieza was going up. And considering how Gohan stated Frieza was suppressed, it was never stated Frieza powered up, and Frieza tends not to go at full power right away when he fights, it seems logical he still wasn't at full power when killed. Not that it would of made much of a difference since Trunks would still be stronger and still would of hit him at full power on the head with a sword.
I don't think Trunks was much above namek saga ssj Goku in power. So I would put him around maybe 160 mil, and when he came back later in the arc maybe 170-180 mil. I would put the androids at around 220 mil, which would be plenty to stomp him silly, and that isn't even 2x Frieza's max power.

[Doctor.]

Looks like Maji Kayo may be strong considering he's handling Dyspo next episode.