Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Looks like Maji Kayo may be strong considering he's handling Dyspo next episode.

It could also merely be his abilities. He's part of Team Universe 3, the cyborg team, and Geekdom101 brough up a good comparison: the T-1000 from Terminator 2: Judgement Day.

He seems to have a liquid shapeshifting body that's not really privy to standard physical harm, and looks to be hard to get out of without overwhelming power like SSB Goku.

[Marlowe89]

If anything, it's both. Maji=Kayo was taking a muscular form when we saw him fighting Goku, so his unique ability most likely serves as a modifier for his strength. Dyspo is probably the same in that regard, with the impact of his own punches being augmented by his great velocity.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If anything, it's both. Maji=Kayo was taking a muscular form when we saw him fighting Goku, so his unique ability most likely serves as a modifier for his strength. Dyspo is probably the same in that regard, with the impact of his own punches being augmented by his great velocity.

Heck, we even see that he's gonna attempt to smash Jiren with a cartoonishly large arm thanks to his variable (metal?) mass in the next episode.

And his normal form is DEFINITELY not very strong looking.

[ZombieVito]

I know this comes from the wiki but damn it, this makes some sense to me:

Saiyan beyond God - The Saiyan beyond God state is a specialized state which possess the raw might (but not the ki or special capacities) of Super Saiyan God without having to transform into the form itself.

[JazzMazz]

1. The writers might of did that because after BoG a bunch of people just said it was because Goku was suppressed. Super had Beerus compare ssj Goku to Frieza to shoot that down. And technically Frieza was the best ssj Goku could do because he didn't know of the androids or Cell. It seems he didn't know of Buu either, but ssj Goku couldn't beat Buu at that point anyways.

2. Frieza was killed while suppressed. And it was with a sword and a surprise attack. Also Vegeta beat Dadoria and Qui even easier than Trunks beat Frieza and he was only about 20% stronger than them. Not even 2x.

1. Poor writing then. Makes perfect sense.

2. Was it much of a surprise? Freeza was in a fight. It's not like Trunks attacked Freeza from behind. He fired an attack which Freeza dodged, then he followed up by slicing him in half. If anything, Freeza simply wasn't keeping aware of his surroundings. I don't see the point of the Vegeta comparison, I didn't say Trunks was 2x Freeza. I'm just saying there's such a gap between the Artificial Humans and Freeza that 3x sounds like a more reasonable estimate. Even if you disregard Freeza's death at Trunks' hands, there's still quite a rise in strength from the fight on Namek to 18 & 17 making a joke of the SSJ transformation.

Frieza thought he killed Trunks after his first attack. Then Trunks fired a ki blast and Frieza instinctively dodged, but that was part of Trunk's plant and he came down on him as Frieza was going up. And considering how Gohan stated Frieza was suppressed, it was never stated Frieza powered up, and Frieza tends not to go at full power right away when he fights, it seems logical he still wasn't at full power when killed. Not that it would of made much of a difference since Trunks would still be stronger and still would of hit him at full power on the head with a sword.
I don't think Trunks was much above namek saga ssj Goku in power. So I would put him around maybe 160 mil, and when he came back later in the arc maybe 170-180 mil. I would put the androids at around 220 mil, which would be plenty to stomp him silly, and that isn't even 2x Frieza's max power.

Just to chip in my two cents. Though Trunks could have taken Freeza by surprise, there is no reason Cold could have been. Cold was stated to be comparable to Freeza but when he tried to attack Trunks he was instantly annihilated. I think that more than confirms that Trunks was a fair bit above Goku from Namek.

[Bullza]

I know this comes from the wiki but damn it, this makes some sense to me:

Saiyan beyond God - The Saiyan beyond God state is a specialized state which possess the raw might (but not the ki or special capacities) of Super Saiyan God without having to transform into the form itself.

That's probably what it was intended to be originally in Resurrection F. Seems like they changed it for some reason or other, likely so that Super Saiyan God could come back or so that it doesn't put all the others, like the Universe 6 fighters so illogically high.

[ZombieVito]

I know this comes from the wiki but damn it, this makes some sense to me:

Saiyan beyond God - The Saiyan beyond God state is a specialized state which possess the raw might (but not the ki or special capacities) of Super Saiyan God without having to transform into the form itself.

That's probably what it was intended to be originally in Resurrection F. Seems like they changed it for some reason or other, likely so that Super Saiyan God could come back or so that it doesn't put all the others, like the Universe 6 fighters so illogically high.

But without SbG that's exactly what's happening. U6, Piccolo, 18 and the humans are way to high in the power scale without a logical reason.

I also don't see anything wrong with both forms coexisting.

[Bullza]

I know this comes from the wiki but damn it, this makes some sense to me:

That's probably what it was intended to be originally in Resurrection F. Seems like they changed it for some reason or other, likely so that Super Saiyan God could come back or so that it doesn't put all the others, like the Universe 6 fighters so illogically high.

But without SbG that's exactly what's happening. U6, Piccolo, 18 and the humans are way to high in the power scale without a logical reason.

I also don't see anything wrong with both forms coexisting.

They arent THAT high. Cabba would be as strong as Goku and Vegeta so also about as strong as Final Form Frieza. Final Form Frost would be a some amount stronger than that? Magetta would be quite high I suppose.

Android 18 shouldn't be that much stronger than before, aside from sparring with Krillin that's all she was shown to do. Krillin was weaker than her so the other humans should be too.

Piccolo is weaker than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga.

[LowRyder2005]

That's probably what it was intended to be originally in Resurrection F. Seems like they changed it for some reason or other, likely so that Super Saiyan God could come back or so that it doesn't put all the others, like the Universe 6 fighters so illogically high.

But without SbG that's exactly what's happening. U6, Piccolo, 18 and the humans are way to high in the power scale without a logical reason.

I also don't see anything wrong with both forms coexisting.

They arent THAT high. Cabba would be as strong as Goku and Vegeta so also about as strong as Final Form Frieza. Final Form Frost would be a some amount stronger than that? Magetta would be quite high I suppose.

Android 18 shouldn't be that much stronger than before, aside from sparring with Krillin that's all she was shown to do. Krillin was weaker than her so the other humans should be too.

Piccolo is weaker than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga.

If we're talking about the current Final Form Freeza, being above base Cabba is basically just something that lacks an official confirmation, but it's been so far directly shown. Napapa was depicted as completely helpless against him; the same Napapa, in turn, also had a feat that would normally put him between base and Super Saiyan Caulifla.

Given that we have yet to see anyone worrying or outpacing Freeza, I think the intent is to portray Freeza as possessing some mammoth strength even without the Golden form. But, even in the most conservatives esteems, he should at least be substantially stronger than base Cabba in general. We could argue that Super Saiyan Caulifla might have been suppressed to near-base levels, I suppose -- but Napapa definitely did not seem one-shot material in Caulifla's case, while he definitely did against Freeza.

I think the best comparison will be when (well, if?) we'll obtain a much-needed confirmation about who's the strongest between Freeza and Frost currently. It might definitely not clear out things in retrospect at all, however; at least if they don't also bother clarifying how at least one of two compares to Goku. Frost "trained" - and I can already see people rationalizing he could've become massively stronger even if the show kept silent - and I can definitely picture people making arguments about Freeza's improvements not being limited to his Golden form.

[dragon boss z]

Just to chip in my two cents. Though Trunks could have taken Freeza by surprise, there is no reason Cold could have been. Cold was stated to be comparable to Freeza but when he tried to attack Trunks he was instantly annihilated. I think that more than confirms that Trunks was a fair bit above Goku from Namek.

King Cold's power was compared to a highly suppressed Frieza. Also we don't know if King Cold can transform or not or if he was at full power. All we know is the King Cold we see is comparable to a mecha Frieza who can still get much stronger (Gohan's words) and both are weaker than ssj Trunks. I agree Trunks was a bit better than Namek Goku though. Maybe 10-20% stronger. I don't think any more than that though.

[ZombieVito]

They arent THAT high. Cabba would be as strong as Goku and Vegeta so also about as strong as Final Form Frieza. Final Form Frost would be a some amount stronger than that? Magetta would be quite high I suppose.

Android 18 shouldn't be that much stronger than before, aside from sparring with Krillin that's all she was shown to do. Krillin was weaker than her so the other humans should be too.

Piccolo is weaker than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga.

18 has been shown to be stronger than base Goku and the latter is way stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks without SbG. Judging by his fight with Majora, Kuririn isn't many times weaker than 18.

How is any of that even possible?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

They arent THAT high. Cabba would be as strong as Goku and Vegeta so also about as strong as Final Form Frieza. Final Form Frost would be a some amount stronger than that? Magetta would be quite high I suppose.

Android 18 shouldn't be that much stronger than before, aside from sparring with Krillin that's all she was shown to do. Krillin was weaker than her so the other humans should be too.

Piccolo is weaker than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga.

18 has been shown to be stronger than base Goku and the latter is way stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks without SbG. Judging by his fight with Majora, Kuririn isn't many times weaker than 18.

How is any of that even possible?

Simple. She HASN'T been displayed as stronger than Goku, merely being portrayed as having the initiative to lift and throw Tupper before he can do anything.

[Bullza]

18 has been shown to be stronger than base Goku and the latter is way stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks without SbG. Judging by his fight with Majora, Kuririn isn't many times weaker than 18.

How is any of that even possible?

Well it would mean that Android 18 actually isn't stronger than Base Goku. That that one particular scene that is leading to a few people believing that to be the case is perhaps being looked at in the wrong way, maybe there was a particular reason for why the scene played out the way it did, maybe it was just an inconsistent scene in general.

There's many scenes where it's very obvious that Base Goku is stronger than Android 18. There's one perhaps questionable scene that makes it appear like Android 18 is stronger than Base Goku. So why is the small minority taking precedence with this?

Didn't Goku match the strongest of the three brothers Bergamo and also the improved Slim Buu? The inferior Fat Buu then defeated Basil who was significantly powered up with drugs. The normal aka weaker version of Basil was then shown to be significantly stronger than Krillin. If you say that Krillin isn't supposed to be that much weaker than Android 18...

Goku was holding his own against the three Trio De Dangers at the same time even though he couldn't sense their energy. Android 18 would have been taken out by that Shosa scrub if it wasn't for Krillin. The two had to team up just to beat him alone.

[Marlowe89]

Not gonna bother replying to points I've already addressed, but the notion that (base) Bergamo is vastly stronger than Basil or that Shosa is a "scrub" is... well, baseless. 18 is stronger than Shosa anyway, otherwise the latter wouldn't have had to feign unconsciousness just to land a clean hit.

The only scene one could argue was "very obvious" in regards to base Goku being stronger than 18 is the one with Gotenks during the Copy Vegeta arc, a story with probably no input from Toriyama that was several arcs ago. Otherwise the 18 vs. Tupper scene is the one that actually takes precedence, especially if it's consistent with Vegeta vs. Hop, Goku vs. Gohan and many more examples similar to those which have also been discussed in this thread in detail.

[Miracles]

More like "the show would be clear after 100+ episodes with an added thirty minutes clip-show entirely composed of exposition". No offense, since I'm assuming you truly believe that and are probably in good faith, but the show being crystal clear and the problem being entirely on the fan's part is, I think, the grossest misrepresentation I've seen so far. And that's saying something, given what we've read here.

Let's say that we made an experiment and each of us watched only some of Super's episodes; then we all recompiled a more comprehensive chart by compiling all our limited informations. The "face value" thingie, with minimum viewer's interposition and broader contextual implications, would probably look something like this:

[spoiler]Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Super Saiyan God >=< Ultimate Gohan (Buu Arc) > Base Goku > Piccolo > Super Saiyan 2 Gohan > Super Saiyan Gohan = Super Saiyan Goku >=< Super Saiyan God > Super Saiyan Goku > Krillin (end his episode) > Base Goku = Base Gohan > Krillin (start of his April episode) > Roshi > Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks[/spoiler]

I'd like to know if classifies as the show being clear and not the show leaving us with dozens of apparently contradictory implications, according to you.

I want also to stress that even assuming that the base forms somehow become superior to their Buu Arc counterparts (as in a *10, or *20 increase) and that there's no intrinsical difference between the base form seen the show still can't work without assuming some of the following:
- That SS3 Gotenks became far weaker, which isn't said nor is it put in a way that we can deduce it from the context.
- That we need to go all the way to "retcon" Buu arc Ultimate Gohan as dwarfing Gotenks' strength in the order of some hundreds of times, with Majin Buu's absorptions following some "rule" that makes him his power jump 1,000 times the first time and 1,1 times afterwards. Notwitstanding the original manga and anime implied the distance between the two wasn't that much.

Or, as someone else proposed, that Goku could power up from "suppressed base to suppressed Super Saiyan (that's occasionally inferior to his real base)" -- but I have a hard time finding it as a more complicated and less discernible variation of the "two-base" approach. Besides, it still wouldn't corroborate the claim that the show is supposed to be easily understandable and digestible when trying to establish who's stronger than whom.

If I can also loosen my "politically correct" tie a little (just one moment, mind ya)? The immediate impression I get from the people who dish out the "it all makes sense, you are the problem" argument, or any variation of it, is that they simple do not keep up with the show, or do not reflect on the logic on what the most subtle, contingent implications of their arguments would involve -- that still wouldn't make the show "simple to understand", not even on the same acceptable level the original Dragon Ball was.

Gotenks got PWNED out of Super Saiyan mode against Beerus by spanking. Vegeta SSJ2 enraged did much better than Gotenks against Beerus.
From then on, Vegeta gains god powers and Gotenks gets beat up by base mode copy Vegeta. Who was equal with base Goku, whom before went toe-to-toe with Monaka suit Beerus.

[Animelover5487]

Not gonna bother replying to points I've already addressed, but the notion that (base) Bergamo is vastly stronger than Basil or that Shosa is a "scrub" is... well, baseless. 18 is stronger than Shosa anyway, otherwise the latter wouldn't have had to feign unconsciousness just to land a clean hit.

The only scene one could argue was "very obvious" in regards to base Goku being stronger than 18 is the one with Gotenks during the Copy Vegeta arc, a story with probably no input from Toriyama that was several arcs ago. Otherwise the 18 vs. Tupper scene is the one that actually takes precedence, especially if it's consistent with Vegeta vs. Hop, Goku vs. Gohan and many more examples similar to those which have also been discussed in this thread in detail.

Vegeta vs Hop was just due to teamwork hax, it says nothing about her power. Goku vs Gohan was an outlier. As Gohan even in SSJ2 was inferior to Piccolo, who even Base Goku was able to tank a heavily amped technique from (albeit with difficulty, but still).

[JazzMazz]

Just to chip in my two cents. Though Trunks could have taken Freeza by surprise, there is no reason Cold could have been. Cold was stated to be comparable to Freeza but when he tried to attack Trunks he was instantly annihilated. I think that more than confirms that Trunks was a fair bit above Goku from Namek.

King Cold's power was compared to a highly suppressed Frieza. Also we don't know if King Cold can transform or not or if he was at full power. All we know is the King Cold we see is comparable to a mecha Frieza who can still get much stronger (Gohan's words) and both are weaker than ssj Trunks. I agree Trunks was a bit better than Namek Goku though. Maybe 10-20% stronger. I don't think any more than that though.

I could definitely see that, everyone was confusing Trunks ki with Goku's so it's not that hard to say they were at least comparable. Though later on Trunks does state that even the powered up Goku that Trunks spars against wouldn't stand a chance against the Androids from his future, which were far weaker than the Androids that actually appeared in the present timeline, who were way stronger than Trunks was as a Super Saiyan. I think it wouldn't be a stretch to assume 17(who is stated in the manga to be more powerful than 18), was at least 2-3 times more powerful than Freeza.

[LowRyder2005]

Just gonna re-post this, because the explanation that #18's strength need to be much weaker than Goku's honestly makes zero sense in-context. It would make more sense to argue the scene is inconsistent or - assuming some still want to go off the assumption Goku is stronger than a fully powered SS3 Gotenks - that #18 leapfrogged over everyone in Z "somehow".

Lifting and throwing Tupper.
Gonna need more than that..
18 a question mark on where she stands as of now.

You use ki to enhance your physical strength, and your ki + characteristics determine overall your battle power. It sounds kind of counter-intuitive to argue that 18's ki is, like, 1/1,000 of Goku, and that her natural physical strength can counter-balance such a gargantuan disparity. I don't think anyone would envision #18's muscles as being stronger than Cell's.
I've just rewatched the scene. Ignoring the writer's intent, which I frankly find rather obvious (as in: no one would write a scene like that to pass off the message #18 is weaker than Goku), and assuming the only thing Goku wouldn't do - other than more self-harm - in this occasion is turning Super Saiyan to save stamina, an in-universe argument can easily be made:

- Tupper's full-nelson is enough to restrain Goku: if you watch carefully you can also see Goku struggling from the very beginning as if he's (understandably) trying to free himself; this also technically happens before Tupper announces he can raise his weight or switches to his weighted form (which has a particular, skeleton-like make-up). While full-nelsons can historically work on opponents of similar strength and build, they never helped if a fighter was massively above the other one: Goku could full-nelson Raditz and block him, but Ultimate Gohan couldn't full-nelson Beerus.

- If this is not enough of a confirmation (and to be truthful it isn't), we also see #18's blasts hurting Tupper, which wouldn't make sense if she wasn't equal or stronger than however strong Tupper was. Plus, since I'm confronting a rather picky argument, I may as well want to hit "Cinema Sins" levels of pickiness myself: namely, what exactly stops Goku from blasting Tupper like #18 did from that stance as well? His hands are always in perfect position to strike long before Tupper becomes too much of a literal burden to bear. Assuming he didn't because it wouldn't work at any point, which would be the most reasonable assumption, this already would put #18 above base Goku.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

In short, Tupper, Goku and #18 at bare minimum need to belong to the same tier of strength: Tupper's strength is in the same realm of Goku's, with #18 having probably some sort of edge on at least Tupper even going by this scene alone.

- Finally, #18 lifts a Tupper who is at least still heavy. Even assuming Tupper had momentarily lowered his weight to attack, which really isn't said, we know his weight is still enormous (the narrative places emphasis on the fact his elimination happens as the edge of the arena, Kachi Katchin, crumbles under Tupper's weight when he's standing still on it) and he'd have no apparent reason not to raise his weight on top of #18 when he realizes his current, supposedly lighter build, is not enough. In short, being reasonable, it means, either the weight Tupper used against Goku wouldn't work on #18, or that Tupper's abilities wouldn't work on #18 in general. In both cases, #18 ends up stronger than Goku.

So, yes, unless we want go towards the PIS/CIS route, the Tupper scene is just a little short of a clear statement akin to "#18 is massively more powerful than base Goku", but does indeed "scream" that #18 is stronger. At the very least, if she's not stronger, the scene suggests that all three are in the same ballpark, which still strengthens my point that Goku's strength is not supposed to be that far off from current #18, who in turn did at most some hours of casual training. Again, we could argue that both Goku and Tupper are acting like idiots (i.e. "Goku struggles, but doesn't break free because he doesn't use enough strength", "Tupper lowers his weight - which isn't told - and casually forgets to raise it again when #18 is lifting him up with one hand"), but I wouldn't really see the point nor much impartiality, since the scene works if you simply assume #18 was needed to save (base) Goku.

Not gonna bother replying to points I've already addressed, but the notion that (base) Bergamo is vastly stronger than Basil or that Shosa is a "scrub" is... well, baseless. 18 is stronger than Shosa anyway, otherwise the latter wouldn't have had to feign unconsciousness just to land a clean hit.

The only scene one could argue was "very obvious" in regards to base Goku being stronger than 18 is the one with Gotenks during the Copy Vegeta arc, a story with probably no input from Toriyama that was several arcs ago. Otherwise the 18 vs. Tupper scene is the one that actually takes precedence, especially if it's consistent with Vegeta vs. Hop, Goku vs. Gohan and many more examples similar to those which have also been discussed in this thread in detail.

Vegeta vs Hop was just due to teamwork hax, it says nothing about her power. Goku vs Gohan was an outlier. As Gohan even in SSJ2 was inferior to Piccolo, who even Base Goku was able to tank a heavily amped technique from (albeit with difficulty, but still).

Gohan wasn't necessarily inferior to Piccolo in SS2, but he might as well been (then again, Piccolo needs for sure to be far above Super Saiyan Gohan). Piccolo has no reason to hurt or injure Goku before the tournament starts, and the idea was to test tactics, so it's much easier to reconcile with the entire mock-fight being just, well, a mock-fight than #18's feats or Super Saiyan Gohan actually being horribly inferior to base Goku -- which would simply make Goku act irrationally (or be plothole) under basically all the scenarios I can think of.

Vegeta vs. Hop and, in general, Vegeta and Goku vs. everyone imply that a gap of 1:50 is enough to completely overwhelm the opponent, and if all the contenders are weaker than Good Buu while base Goku is supposedly above the SS3 Gotenks (from the Buu Arc, since we're comfortably assuming he cannot be weaker or rusty) their gap would already need to be some 1:10, or far more depending on how strong Gotenks was post-ROSAT. Goku (or everyone) could destroy two opponents easily in Z with a 1:2 gap even with team-up; we may as well admit that some rules have changed in the context of the tournament of power, but again, the scene does fit with everything we know - not to mention what happens later - without problems.

Gotenks got PWNED out of Super Saiyan mode against Beerus by spanking. Vegeta SSJ2 enraged did much better than Gotenks against Beerus.
From then on, Vegeta gains god powers and Gotenks gets beat up by base mode copy Vegeta. Who was equal with base Goku, whom before went toe-to-toe with Monaka suit Beerus.

I haven't re-read my reply to you, honestly, but I don't understand what the point is really supposed to be.
Yes, Beerus is stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks, enraged Vegeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks and Super Saiyan 3 Goku. They are all commonly accepted staples and for pretty good reasons. Monaka-Beerus - which has also been discussed thoroughly in the very last pages - is still irrelevant: Beerus already needs to be operating some kind of extreme suppression, for starters (some 0,1% of his full power, since the old multipliers presumably still apply). The visual feats are intrinsincally ambiguous (since they always depend on the level of ki one is exerting: a suppressed Goku could "fight" on equal terms with Krillin, or even Chiaotzu) and there's no unambiguous indication, like a clear statement, that he's using more power than what he used against Super Saiyan 3 Goku or Super Saiyan Gotenks.

The most we have is the fact Earth was in jeopardy (so, Beerus' strength should be higher than or could easily reach the lowest planet-busters'), Beeru's laughing hysterically because of the fact he can't k.o. Goku at his current, extremely low power output, but it's hardly conclusive either. Beerus could k.o. a base Goku who's 1/400 of SS3 Goku by raising his power from ~0,1% to some ~0,2%; so the only rational conclusion is that something was forcing Beerus to keep his power under that treshold. Because of that he was unable to k.o. base Goku (who's weak compared to SSG Goku, a multiplier superior to SS3, in any scenario, the stronger than SS3 Gotenks-base some still adhere to included), which prompted him to throw a fit: I'd probably say the intended factor at play was that he couldn't get out of the costume or ruin it.

Besides, the power-scaling and authorial intent heavily implies base Goku today is weaker than #18 and Good Buu (among other stuff that should still change the hierarchy of those who start off the assumption that everyone above base Goku is above an untransformed Freza, like the same Freeza being almost surely above, if not far above, base Cabba).

[Bullza]

the notion that (base) Bergamo is vastly stronger than Basil or that Shosa is a "scrub" is... well, baseless.

Bergamo fought on par with Base Goku who is in turn stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Basil on the other hand was beaten mercilessly by Buu and still lost upon being powered up.

That's not baseless. One would be significantly above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and the other significantly below Buu based on information given in the show.

Shosa was just another one and done fighter.

The only scene one could argue was "very obvious" in regards to base Goku being stronger than 18 is the one with Gotenks during the Copy Vegeta arc

Base Goku fought Final Form Frieza whereas all the other Z Fighters including Super Saiyan Gohan couldn't taken First Form Frieza. Android 18 shouldn't even be as strong as Piccolo.

[DBZ Macky]

What would the power scale look like if we ignored Goku and Vegeta's (including Copy Vegeta) feats, and just based the scale on the other characters? I think it would look pretty reasonable and consistent.
Try it out.

There has definitely been a silent retcon or something along those lines. Goku and Vegeta (especially their base forms) just aren't reliable measuring sticks.