Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

The convo has nothing to do with Beerus being able to smash Goku's base easily.

Which is exactly why your argument is pointless because you have absolutely no way of quantifying how much strength Beerus chose to output in both situations, how much of a handicap Goku possessed because of the Monaka costume, etc.

If you can't reliably measure the percentage of power used in either scenario, you don't have anything to fall back on. That was my point. You keep repeating the word "effort" even though we already know that Beerus would effortlessly wipe out base Goku if he really wanted to, so it's a worthless proposition.

[Miracles]

The point is, like I already said many times by now, that even assuming that Goku did vastly "power up", Monaka-Beerus is irrelevant. Whatever Beerus does against him, or whatever Goku does is as relevant as base Goku doing something to final form Freeza on Namek.

But most importantly: the crucial point is that Beerus is not outright "using more energy". That's just an assumption. He could've just felt he needed to keep his ki at an even lower output for whatever reason; in which case he could've kept his ki lower than he did against SS3 Goku. We have also already clarified that flaring up his ki is either questionable or inconsistent, and that attacking Goku head-on and Goku surviving are as easily achievable as Freeza lowering his power to Roshi levels, fighting Roshi and then spanking the much more powerful Krillin out of a whim. Using in-universe logic instead of analyzing possible authorial intent, absolutely nothing of what Beerus does in that scene alone is really quantifiable in certain terms, not even in comparison to Beerus vs. Gotenks, Beerus vs. Goku or whatever. The only reason you're keeping this type of argument up is because your guts tell you they wrote the scene with the idea Goku had to be really strong (which I'm not really against, but that's beside the point).

Other than that, it's obvious that if you start off the premise that base Goku is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, the scene can possibly work if both Beerus and Goku are hitting some "stronger than Gotenks" treshold. It still doesn't make the scenes "two proofs"; one is a possible "proof", and another one is just a possible logical consequence. "Proofs" need first and foremost to stand on their own, generally speaking, without logical dependency from other proofs (otherwise, at least one is not a proof, and just "part of a theory").

Goku after He and Beerus power up some more: "Ok, let's pump things up even more."
Whis after stopping Beerus and Goku: "Are you two trying to destroy the planet?"

Beerus put out more energy and effort against base Goku. This is a fact that can not be denied.
Gotenks got STOMPED by two fingers unlike base Goku. Then gets owned by copy Vegeta, more proof Gotenks can not compare to base Goku/Vegeta.

The convo has nothing to do with Beerus being able to smash Goku's base easily.

Which is exactly why your argument is pointless because you have absolutely no way of quantifying how much strength Beerus chose to output in both situations, how much of a handicap Goku possessed because of the Monaka costume, etc.

If you can't reliably measure the percentage of power used in either scenario, you don't have anything to fall back on. You keep repeating the word "effort" even though we already know that Beerus would effortlessly wipe out base Goku if he really wanted to, so it's a moot point.

Quantification is not necessary when you see Beerus and Goku exchanging blows after power ups and Goku not getting STOMPED by a much more suppressed Beerus with two fingers like Gotenks.
Base Goku=Copy Vegeta > Gotenks.

[LowRyder2005]

Goku after He and Beerus power up some more: "Ok, let's pump things up even more."
Whis after stopping Beerus and Goku: "Are you two trying to destroy the planet?"

Beerus put out more energy and effort against base Goku. This is a fact that can not be denied.
Gotenks got STOMPED by two fingers unlike base Goku. Then gets owned by copy Vegeta, more proof Gotenks can not compare to base Goku/Vegeta.

... "Let's pump things up even more" doesn't literally mean anything other than they were going harder than however hard they were going, and "destroying the planet" can be achieved with a power level in the thousands.

Not only that: even more precisely, during the Cell Game, characters actually make a point that any fighter can easily destroy the planet if they don't aim at the right angle, which means basically anyone in BOG can destroy the planet by fighting carelessly. How is that supposed to prove they're above a power level of billions and billions?

[Marlowe89]

Quantification is not necessary

It is necessary. It's the crux of your entire argument.

Without a reliable measurement of Beerus' output against base Goku compared to Gotenks or whoever else, you're just throwing around an empty premise based on nothing more than your own subjective interpretation. There's nothing concrete here.

[Miracles]

Goku after He and Beerus power up some more: "Ok, let's pump things up even more."
Whis after stopping Beerus and Goku: "Are you two trying to destroy the planet?"

Beerus put out more energy and effort against base Goku. This is a fact that can not be denied.
Gotenks got STOMPED by two fingers unlike base Goku. Then gets owned by copy Vegeta, more proof Gotenks can not compare to base Goku/Vegeta.

... "Let's pump things up even more" doesn't literally mean anything other than they were going harder than however hard they were going, and "destroying the planet" can be achieved with a power level in the thousands. How is that supposed to prove they're above a power level of billions and billions?

Nobody is talking power levels cause none is given in the story.
We're talking about Gotenks couldn't push Beerus passed using two fingers at all unlike base Goku.
Even SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than Gotenks.Whom got Beerus to throw actual punches.
Goku=CopyVegeta>Gotenks.

It is necessary. It's the crux of your entire argument.

Without a reliable measurement of Beerus' output against base Goku compared to Gotenks or whoever else, you're just throwing around an empty premise based on nothing more than your own subjective interpretation. There's nothing concrete here.

Wrong, there is a difference in power shown when Copy Vegeta smashed Gotenks just like Beerus did.

[LowRyder2005]

Goku after He and Beerus power up some more: "Ok, let's pump things up even more."
Whis after stopping Beerus and Goku: "Are you two trying to destroy the planet?"

Beerus put out more energy and effort against base Goku. This is a fact that can not be denied.
Gotenks got STOMPED by two fingers unlike base Goku. Then gets owned by copy Vegeta, more proof Gotenks can not compare to base Goku/Vegeta.

... "Let's pump things up even more" doesn't literally mean anything other than they were going harder than however hard they were going, and "destroying the planet" can be achieved with a power level in the thousands. How is that supposed to prove they're above a power level of billions and billions?

Nobody is talking power levels cause none is given in the story.
We're talking about Gotenks couldn't push Beerus passed using two fingers at all unlike base Goku.
Even SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than Gotenks.Whom got Beerus to throw actual punches.
Goku=CopyVegeta>Gotenks.

It is necessary. It's the crux of your entire argument.

Without a reliable measurement of Beerus' output against base Goku compared to Gotenks or whoever else, you're just throwing around an empty premise based on nothing more than your own subjective interpretation. There's nothing concrete here.

Wrong, there is a difference in power shown when Copy Vegeta smashed Gotenks just like Beerus did.

I'm not talking about "power levels": by claiming they could destroy the planet you're literally only proving that they were above Vegeta on Earth. Which means you aren't proving anything we didn't already know.

Secondly, Beerus could throw punches, and get hurt by anyone's punches, as long as he keeps his power level low enough. Let's even leave aside the fact that Beerus is in a costume he absolutely cannot break, which already invalidates the premise the fight happens under really similar conditions, what do you intend to use as proof that Beerus used more ki against Goku than he did against SS Gotenks or SS3 Goku? If you lower your power you can go from finger-flicking to exchange punches, the presence or absence of Beerus' aura is also irrelevant since it's inconsistent in the first place.

I hope you realize that, so far, your argument is the equivalent of saying that if Namek Freeza, on a whim, spanked, finger-flicked or decided to humble base Goku and then arbitrarily decided to fisticuff a little with Piccolo, it would've proven conclusively that Piccolo was stronger than Goku.
You can freely think that the base is stronger than Gotenks, but it's at most a consequence of Copy-Vegeta vs. Gotenks, not another thing that reaches the same conclusion even semi-autonomously through in-universe analysis.

I mean, someone lend me a dictionary here.

[Miracles]

I'm not talking about "power levels": by claiming they could destroy the planet you're literally only proving that they were above Vegeta on Earth. Which means you aren't proving anything we didn't already know.

Secondly, Beerus could throw punches, and get hurt by anyone's punches, as long as he keeps his power level low enough.
I hope you realize that your argument is like saying that if Namek Freeza, on a whim, spanked or decided to humble base Goku and then arbitrarily decided to fisticuff a little with Piccolo, it would've proven conclusively that Piccolo was stronger than Goku.

Terrible example. We know Piccolo got smashed by third form Freeza. Piccolo couldn't even see final form freeza. Goku could, so Goku was stronger.
Just like Gotenks got smashed by Copy Vegeta whom Goku was equal with, who did better against Beerus, powered up a few times before.
Beerus>Goku=copy Vegeta>Gotenks.
You just brought yourself back to this truth.

[LowRyder2005]

I'm not talking about "power levels": by claiming they could destroy the planet you're literally only proving that they were above Vegeta on Earth. Which means you aren't proving anything we didn't already know.

Secondly, Beerus could throw punches, and get hurt by anyone's punches, as long as he keeps his power level low enough.
I hope you realize that your argument is like saying that if Namek Freeza, on a whim, spanked or decided to humble base Goku and then arbitrarily decided to fisticuff a little with Piccolo, it would've proven conclusively that Piccolo was stronger than Goku.

Terrible example. We know Piccolo got smashed by third form Freeza. Piccolo couldn't even see final form freeza but Goku could so Goku was stronger.
Just like Gotenks got smashed by Copy Vegeta whom Goku was equal with, who fought Beerus, powered up a few times before.
You just brought yourself back to this truth.

... It's the perfect example, actually. Let's assume you didn't know that Piccolo got smashed by third Form Freeza. Are you are already implying would have reached the wrong conclusion if not for external evidence?

Because, unless you noticed, that's the point I'm trying to make since many posts by now.

[Miracles]

... It's the perfect example, actually. Let's assume you didn't know that Piccolo got smashed by third Form Freeza. Are you are already implying would have reached the wrong conclusion if not for external evidence?

We don't need to assume, we know the situation. So this question doesn't apply to either instances.

[LowRyder2005]

Terrible example. We know Piccolo got smashed by third form Freeza. Piccolo couldn't even see final form freeza but Goku could so Goku was stronger.
Just like Gotenks got smashed by Copy Vegeta whom Goku was equal with, who fought Beerus, powered up a few times before.
You just brought yourself back to this truth.

... It's the perfect example, actually. Let's assume you didn't know that Piccolo got smashed by third Form Freeza. Are you are already implying would have reached the wrong conclusion if not for external evidence?

We don't need to assume, so this question doesn't apply to either instances.

I'm afraid you need to elaborate on that: you were trying to say Monaka-Beerus constituted proof on its own; if you need to go all the way back to rely on Gotenks vs. Vegeta you're already stating in time and time again that it doesn't constitute proof on its own.

Also, do note that you haven't answered/ gallantly ignored my concerns at all about what constitutes proof limiting yourself to Beerus vs. Goku.

[Miracles]

... It's the perfect example, actually. Let's assume you didn't know that Piccolo got smashed by third Form Freeza. Are you are already implying would have reached the wrong conclusion if not for external evidence?

We don't need to assume, so this question doesn't apply to either instances.

I'm afraid you need to elaborate on that: you were trying to say Monaka-Beerus constituted proof on its own; if you need to go all the way back to rely on Gotenks vs. Vegeta you're already stating in time and time again that it doesn't constitute proof on its own.

Also, do note that you haven't answered/ gallantly ignored my concerns at all about what constitutes proof limiting yourself to Beerus vs. Goku.

No, the comparisons are proof. That's how Dragonball always worked. You see, you prove my point how the fandom messes the power level structure up. It's not the show IT'S YOU and theory making. Which in this case, Copy Vegeta > Gotenks. Due to the fact that Gotenks got embarrassed by TWO FINGER spanking Beerus...COULDN'T EVEN GET A HIT IN or even get out of the two finger grip....Yet Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta does better. Able to get Hit's in on Beerus, so naturally a copy Vegeta with god powers will do the same smacking to Gotenks. Who equalled a Goku trading blows for a period of time with Beerus who pwned Gotenks. You do not determine what proof is when Super demonstrates it itself. Super canon states base Goku=base/copy Vegeta > Gotenks.

[LowRyder2005]

We don't need to assume, so this question doesn't apply to either instances.

I'm afraid you need to elaborate on that: you were trying to say Monaka-Beerus constituted proof on its own; if you need to go all the way back to rely on Gotenks vs. Vegeta you're already stating in time and time again that it doesn't constitute proof on its own.

Also, do note that you haven't answered/ gallantly ignored my concerns at all about what constitutes proof limiting yourself to Beerus vs. Goku.

No, the comparisons are proof. That's how Dragonball always worked. You see, you prove my point how the fandom messes the power level structure up. It's not the show IT'S YOU and you're lame theory making. Which in this case, Copy Vegeta > Gotenks. Due to the fact that Gotenks got embarrassed by TWO FINGER spanking Beerus...COULDN'T EVEN GET A HIT IN or even get out of the two finger grip....Yet Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta does better. Able to get Hit's in on Beerus, so naturally a copy Vegeta with god powers will do the same smacking to Gotenks. You do not determine what proof is when Super demonstrates it itself.
Super canon states base Goku=base/copy Vegeta > Gotenks.

Just to clarify: is your intent just going "ad nauseam" -- or tirelessly repeating the same thing over and over, even when previously addressed or clarified to kill us through sheer boredom? Because, being blunt, it doesn't actually take that much effort.

You stopped making a case for what you believed was the case half-a-dozen of posts ago; given the bile and the absence of thoughtfulness in either your posts or arguments, I think we're going borderline into functional illiteracy territory, given that you're literally making it appear like you don't understand a lick of anything I've said -- starting from the fact that I could understand without issue the general idea the writer wanted to make base Goku appear that strong, regardless of how definite (or indefinite) it looks in-universe.

I'll say that maybe you should get a good grasp of what "in-universe logic" and "out-of-universe logic" is before making an argument. How 'bout that, for a nice, fun read? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... susDoylist

[Miracles]

Just to clarify: is your intent just going "ad nauseam" -- or tirelessly repeating the same thing over and over to kill us through sheer boredom? Because, to be honest, it doesn't actually take that much effort.

You stopped making a case for what you believed was the case half-a-dozen of posts ago; to be honest, given the bile and the absence of thoughtfulness in either your posts or arguments, I think we're going borderline into functional illiteracy territory, given that you're literally making it appear like you don't understand a lick of anything I've said -- starting from the fact that I could understand without issue the general idea the writer wanted to make base Goku appear that strong, regardless of how definite (or indefinite) it looks in-universe.

I'll say that maybe you should get a good grasp of what "in-universe logic" and "out-of-universe logic" is before making an argument. How 'bout that, for a nice, fun read? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... susDoylist

I claimed the show is fine it's the fandom who is the problem, You claimed the show messes up the power scaling and one of the main examples was with Gotenks.
I demonstrated otherwise, that you messed up the show's scaling cause you don't accept the evidence they give by comparisons.
Now you're trying to say the comparisons the show gave are not proof. That's on you, if you don't want to accept it. But don't blame the show it's simply your problem.

[LowRyder2005]

Just to clarify: is your intent just going "ad nauseam" -- or tirelessly repeating the same thing over and over to kill us through sheer boredom? Because, to be honest, it doesn't actually take that much effort.

You stopped making a case for what you believed was the case half-a-dozen of posts ago; to be honest, given the bile and the absence of thoughtfulness in either your posts or arguments, I think we're going borderline into functional illiteracy territory, given that you're literally making it appear like you don't understand a lick of anything I've said -- starting from the fact that I could understand without issue the general idea the writer wanted to make base Goku appear that strong, regardless of how definite (or indefinite) it looks in-universe.

I'll say that maybe you should get a good grasp of what "in-universe logic" and "out-of-universe logic" is before making an argument. How 'bout that, for a nice, fun read? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... susDoylist

I claimed the show is fine it's the fandom whose the problem, You claimed the show messes up the power scaling and one of the main examples was with Gotenks.
I demonstrated otherwise, that you messed up the show's scaling cause you don't accept the evidence they give by comparisons.
Now you're trying to say the comparisons the show gave are not proof. that's on you if you don't want to accept it. But don't blame the show.

And, pray tell, how does your ten-post crusade to prove base Goku is totally stronger than SS3 Gotenks at any point in the series solve all the problems or headscratchers of Super's scaling in general?

Starting from the fact that Super Saiyan Goku was not that far off from God, strength-wise (or maybe even in base), and yet lately he doesn't possess "the power of the gods" unless he goes Blue; or that Goku is stronger than Gotenks and can't beat Basil who's weaker than Good Buu; or that Goku can't ki-blast/lift an opponent who's weaker and as light as any for #18? Or that a Super Saiyan Gohan who's implied to be weaker tout-court than his Buu arc self is stronger than that very base Goku (but also weaker than Gotenks)?

[spoiler]Also, "whose ≠ who's".[/spoiler]

[Miracles]

And, pray tell, how does your ten-post-crusade to prove base Goku is totally stronger than SS3 Gotenks at any point in the series solve all the problems or headscratchers of Super's scaling in general?

Starting from the fact that Super Saiyan Goku was not that far off from God, strength-wise (or maybe even in base), and yet lately he doesn't possess "the power of the gods" unless he goes Blue; or that Goku is stronger than Gotenks and can't beat Basil who's weaker than Good Buu; or that Goku can't ki-blast/lift an opponent who's weaker and as light as any for #18? Or that a Gohan who's implied to be weaker tout-court than his Buu arc self can be stronger is stronger base Goku (but also weaker than Gotenks)?

[spoiler]Also, "whose =/= who's".[/spoiler]

First, thank you for the grammar correction.
Secondly, I'm glad you admitted to the Gotenks situation.
Now, I will get to your other supposed problems later.
Goodnight.

[LowRyder2005]

And, pray tell, how does your ten-post-crusade to prove base Goku is totally stronger than SS3 Gotenks at any point in the series solve all the problems or headscratchers of Super's scaling in general?

Starting from the fact that Super Saiyan Goku was not that far off from God, strength-wise (or maybe even in base), and yet lately he doesn't possess "the power of the gods" unless he goes Blue; or that Goku is stronger than Gotenks and can't beat Basil who's weaker than Good Buu; or that Goku can't ki-blast/lift an opponent who's weaker and as light as any for #18? Or that a Gohan who's implied to be weaker tout-court than his Buu arc self can be stronger is stronger base Goku (but also weaker than Gotenks)?

[spoiler]Also, "whose =/= who's".[/spoiler]

First, thank you for the grammar correction.
Secondly, I'm glad you admitted about Gotenks.
Now, I will get to your other supposed problems later.
Goodnight.

Cool! Don't take it personally if I'll probably just ignore it.
Have some safe and well-deserved shuteye, bud.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Coming out of lurking, but you guys know that there's very little to no evidence disproving the existence of Saiyan Beyond God, and it solves almost all power levels snafus regarding base Goku and Vegeta's strength, right?

Granted, the existence of such a form is only based on circumstantial evidence and Heroes, but it's a near perfect way to reconcile Goku and Vegeta's seemingly drastically fluctuating power and it has yet to be proven false.

It explains Goku Black's power when not in Rose, it explains Freeza's power when curbstomping Napapa, it explains Vegeta's power when curbstomping SS3 Gotenks, and it explains Goku's power when fighting Beerus, Copy-Vegeta, Hit, Piccolo, Freeza, Buu, and maybe even Rozie, if the recent spoilers hinting at Ribrianne possibly being a candidate for God of Destruction are any indicator of the supposed power of the Kamikaze Fireballs as a team.

[JazzMazz]

Coming out of lurking, but you guys know that there's very little to no evidence disproving the existence of Saiyan Beyond God, and it solves almost all power levels snafus regarding base Goku and Vegeta's strength, right?

Granted, the existence of such a form is only based on circumstantial evidence and Heroes, but it's a near perfect way to reconcile Goku and Vegeta's seemingly drastically fluctuating power and it has yet to be proven false.

It explains Goku Black's power when not in Rose, it explains Freeza's power when curbstomping Napapa, it explains Vegeta's power when curbstomping SS3 Gotenks, and it explains Goku's power when fighting Beerus, Copy-Vegeta, Hit, Piccolo, Freeza, Buu, and maybe even Rozie, if the recent spoilers hinting at Ribrianne possibly being a candidate for God of Destruction are any indicator of the supposed power of the Kamikaze Fireballs as a team.

I don't subscribe to the idea that Goku and Vegeta's base are anywhere near SSG level. Though I do think there is an argument that SS can provide a larger multipler than 2 and 3, and is at it's best as strong as SSG.

[Bullza]

Here's something interesting.



So current Goku, I imagine this would be with Super Saiyan Blue, is no match for Jiren even with Kaioken x20.

That's pretty significant really. He put Merged Zamasu flat on his ass with just Kaioken. Beat Giant Bergamo and Ultimate Gohan with just Kaioken. Was supposed to be equal to Toppo with Kaioken.

So I suppose if it is infact Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20 and afterwards he comes out with his new form and puts up a much better fight then you could say the form is over 20 times as strong as Super Saiyan Blue.

[Animelover5487]

Yeah this does put Jiren quite high up the power scale. I am officially convinced now that Jiren is the mortal stronger than Beerus.