Dragon Ball Super: Vegeta's Character Development and My Take

[Basako]

I'd agree more with the rival aspect if he was treated more like one. It's hard for me to pick the best rival in DB when Goku loses interest in all of them so damn quick.

Yes, I think it works more in one direction, Goku is a rival for Vegeta, but not so much the other way around. Vegeta's goal is to surpass Kakarot, stated by him many times. Goku does not care that much, he just likes strong opponents. There's his new rivalry with Hit, I think there will be a rematch, and Toppo and Jiren will be next.

[Jigurashi]

I'd agree more with the rival aspect if he was treated more like one. It's hard for me to pick the best rival in DB when Goku loses interest in all of them so damn quick.

Yes, I think it works more in one direction, Goku is a rival for Vegeta, but not so much the other way around. Vegeta's goal is to surpass Kakarot, stated by him many times. Goku does not care that much, he just likes strong opponents. There's his new rivalry with Hit, I think there will be a rematch, and Toppo and Jiren will be next.

Hell Goku still wants Freeza to be a rival lol.

[supercat]

It has nothing to do with me favoring Vegeta or disliking Piccolo. I don't dislike Piccolo at all let alone his relationship with Gohan. I actually think the two make a great team, and I like the mentor / student bond between them. Piccolo going down for Gohan back in the Saiyan saga was deep.

All i'm saying is, Piccolo was really quick to soften up as a character. It didn't take long for him to change at all. Compared to Vegeta, who had a lot of struggle and who really had to work for it. So you could almost say, it really is pretty cool to see how far Vegeta's come. But I feel since Piccolo was never really that evil to begin with, all those scenes just make him look like a pushover and another gag character.

I would also love to see Piccolo humbling before Whis and Beerus. Why? Because this would truly be a way for him to climb back up on the power scale. This also wouldn't count as getting pushed around, because unlike disobeying ChiChi, showing disrespect to Whis and Beerus could have negative consequences. And showing them respect could have positive consequences, like getting stronger. What would he gain out of helping ChiChi?

If Frieza became good, Piccolo should also humble before him as well and commend him for how powerful he's become. I'm sure Frieza would love hearing that and would love to have someone like him as a right hand. Like I said, he did want to offer the job to Nail back on Namek so of course he'd have a guy far stronger than a powered up SSJ2 as his new right hand. And this would separate him from Gohan.

Just because he helps Chichi doesn't mean he has soften up and he does it because he wants to, because he has a close relation with the Son family, not for gaining anything. Not everyone thinks like Vegeta, thank god. The character evolved for many reasons, mainly for caring for Gohan, but also for assimilating Nail and Kami, he was influenced by them. Piccolo got to accept he was left behind eventually, as earthlings did before him. He is no match for the saiyans, unless Toriyama writes something for him now, which is unlikely.

Now, there is humbling and there is embarrassing himself behaving like a servant like Vegeta did repeatedly. I would think it's fine if he asked Whis for training, there is no need to crawl like a worm for that, Goku got it without doing that.

Piccolo shouldn't humble with Freeza, fuck the tyrant. Nobody ever did that with Vegeta either. Vegeta won acceptance and respect from others with actions and because they needed him as an ally, like many others before him. In a sense, he was the one humbling to be accepted in Earth. He changed, which is fine, his mass murdering traits of the past wouldn't fit anymore.

Just for the record, I like Vegeta as he is with his flaws, like mostly all characters when the writers don't screw them. I think he is the best rival for Goku and there is cool dynamic working between them making both of them grow. Vegeta gets more from this, he is the one taking the rivalry more seriously. But I'm not going to worship him like some kind of flawless god like you do and many of his fans, not all, even less criticising others to try to make him look better than what he is. His shit stinks, like everyone's.

I wasn't criticizing Piccolo to make Vegeta look better. Although I will acknowledge that Vegeta in my opinion obtained far more in terms of the quantity of character growth that took place. Let's say where they're at in terms of maturity and character growth is 10.

I see Piccolo starting off at 5 and Vegeta starting off at 0. I feel Piccolo really didn't have that much growing to do, as he was never really evil. Heck, he began turning good in the first Saga of DBZ... Vegeta didn't actually turn good (good as in caring for others) until the very end of Z. Big difference. So for a character to have changed that much, of course it's cool and even touching to see him the way he is now. That takes away from the cheesiness.

[Basako]

I wasn't criticizing Piccolo to make Vegeta look better. Although I will acknowledge that Vegeta in my opinion obtained far more in terms of the quantity of character growth that took place. Let's say where they're at in terms of maturity and character growth is 10.

I see Piccolo starting off at 5 and Vegeta starting off at 0. I feel Piccolo really didn't have that much growing to do, as he was never really evil. Heck, he began turning good in the first Saga of DBZ... Vegeta didn't actually turn good (good as in caring for others) until the very end of Z. Big difference. So for a character to have changed that much, of course it's cool and even touching to see him the way he is now. That takes away from the cheesiness.

And yet you brought this negative opinion of yours about Piccolo and Tenshinhan to a thread dedicated to Vegeta's development in Super. Sometimes topics deviate naturally, but this is not one of those cases, it couldn't feel more forced the way you did it. You are a Vegeta fan, that's obvious, now what's the point on bringing your negative thoughts about others in this topic like you did then?

Even more, I made a comment about just Vegeta's development and you answered me with your take on Piccolo and Ten, without any relation to my comment, even if you had stated your opinion about them right two comments before. And here we are, talking about this three characters.

You tryed to make Vegeta look better by negativizing this other two characters, with things you wouldn't use against him if they were his actions and justifying anything he does. You are his fan, that's ok, but we are not all blind worshipers of him.

Even a viewer who does not care about Tenshinhan would admit that what he did against Cell was cool, with much less power, he stopped him and let 16 and 18 escape. You are clearly biased against him. Piccolo's gag intended moments in Super, you make them look bad, even if they aren't, but you run to justify similar moments of Vegeta. I only gave you your own medicine.

[BWri]

What do you guys think? Am I missing the point? Am I missing several points? I was just curious to see what other people thought about the topic.

You've made some really good points about Vegeta's development, points that I agree wholeheartedly with. I think you are missing something though at least from the way I see it. Most of the complaints I've seen about Vegeta's character development came at the start of the Universe Survival arc. Most of my own complaints with Vegeta's character comes from how he's acting in the ToP currently. Super has done a great job of showing a fully matured and intelligent Vegeta, who often times seems on par with Piccolo when it comes to strategy and keeping a level head, but ever since the start of this arc he's become this reckless half-baked version of himself that's too proud to accept teamwork tactics (unless he's working with Goku for some reason) and who refuses to fight with smarts and subterfuge which is a drastic change from how he fought on Namek. Sure Cell and Buu saga Vegeta was all about his pride, but he swallowed that to defeat a greater evil. Now that his universe is on the line, the universe with his family, he's acting far more prideful (to a goofy degree) than he's ever acted in his life. It's like the writer's at Super pick one character trait for someone and just push that to the moon, but that comes at the expense of their growth. Ex. Goku being so dumb, Vegeta's pride, Piccolo saving Gohan, etc.

Even befor this saga, nothing gave off he was all that strategical in Super imo. He's rarely ever used tactics.

He was very tactical when he was first introduced. On Earth, he decided to kill everyone before Goku arrived even when only sensing like 5000 of his power level, then he exploited blutz waves by creating the power ball and turning into a great ape. On Namek, he was the most tactical of anyone I've ever seen in the show with his subterfuge hit and run tactics, zenkai exploitation, and cutthroat brutality. Later on, his bluff against Android 20 was pretty good, even Piccolo commended him for that one and much later I believe it was him who recommended and setup everything Goku need to perform the spirit bomb against Buu, but it's been so long so correct me if I'm wrong there.

*edit Apologies, I read your statement too fast. In Super he's mostly kept a level head in all his battles, being more reserved than he was known for in Z like against Hit and Black when he tried to observe them when he first fought them. He was kinda tactical in trying to keep Beerus from getting angry

[Jigurashi]

You've made some really good points about Vegeta's development, points that I agree wholeheartedly with. I think you are missing something though at least from the way I see it. Most of the complaints I've seen about Vegeta's character development came at the start of the Universe Survival arc. Most of my own complaints with Vegeta's character comes from how he's acting in the ToP currently. Super has done a great job of showing a fully matured and intelligent Vegeta, who often times seems on par with Piccolo when it comes to strategy and keeping a level head, but ever since the start of this arc he's become this reckless half-baked version of himself that's too proud to accept teamwork tactics (unless he's working with Goku for some reason) and who refuses to fight with smarts and subterfuge which is a drastic change from how he fought on Namek. Sure Cell and Buu saga Vegeta was all about his pride, but he swallowed that to defeat a greater evil. Now that his universe is on the line, the universe with his family, he's acting far more prideful (to a goofy degree) than he's ever acted in his life. It's like the writer's at Super pick one character trait for someone and just push that to the moon, but that comes at the expense of their growth. Ex. Goku being so dumb, Vegeta's pride, Piccolo saving Gohan, etc.

Even befor this saga, nothing gave off he was all that strategical in Super imo. He's rarely ever used tactics.

He was very tactical when he was first introduced. On Earth, he decided to kill everyone before Goku arrived even when only sensing like 5000 of his power level, then he exploited blutz waves by creating the power ball and turning into a great ape. On Namek, he was the most tactical of anyone I've ever seen in the show with his subterfuge hit and run tactics, zenkai exploitation, and cutthroat brutality. Later on, his bluff against Android 20 was pretty good, even Piccolo commended him for that one and much later I believe it was him who recommended and setup everything Goku need to perform the spirit bomb against Buu, but it's been so long so correct me if I'm wrong there.

*edit Apologies, I read your statement too fast. In Super he's mostly kept a level head in all his battles, being more reserved than he was known for in Z like against Hit and Black when he tried to observe them when he first fought them. He was kinda tactical in trying to keep Beerus from getting angry

Killing everyone wasn't tactical, that was just common sense considering he was shocked as hell to see Goku power up so much since his fight with Raditz. Turning ape wasn't tactical at all. That was a last resort move for Vegeta because Goku kicked his ass just before that. I'll give you Namek, he was legit tactical there. That's why Namek Vegeta isn't the only version of the character I like. After Namek he isn't really tactical anymore. He has like one moment with Android 19 by he saw Goku Vs 19 so he already knew hey could absorb ki. The moment is then ruined when a chapter later he moronically throws out a ki blast knowing 20 can absorb it. Vegeta's plan with Boo wasn't a sign of him being tactical. That was a terrible plan. He wasn't really tactical against Black but he was at least thinking of ways to combat Hitto. I'm not saying Vegeta is dumb but he's like Tenshinhan: They both are skilled fighters but aren't all that tactical.

After Namek, we're more so told Vegeta is a tactical genius but we rarely ever actually get to see why he's a tactical genius. As opposed to say Goku or Kuririn who have a lot of feats in fights showing how they're tactical geniuses. It's really my issue with that. In this case they tell and not show, butt since they rarely ever show it, I can't just assume he's a tactical genius, especially since Vegeta is almost always portrayed as a brute who relies almost entirely on raw power.

[BWri]

Even befor this saga, nothing gave off he was all that strategical in Super imo. He's rarely ever used tactics.

He was very tactical when he was first introduced. On Earth, he decided to kill everyone before Goku arrived even when only sensing like 5000 of his power level, then he exploited blutz waves by creating the power ball and turning into a great ape. On Namek, he was the most tactical of anyone I've ever seen in the show with his subterfuge hit and run tactics, zenkai exploitation, and cutthroat brutality. Later on, his bluff against Android 20 was pretty good, even Piccolo commended him for that one and much later I believe it was him who recommended and setup everything Goku need to perform the spirit bomb against Buu, but it's been so long so correct me if I'm wrong there.

*edit Apologies, I read your statement too fast. In Super he's mostly kept a level head in all his battles, being more reserved than he was known for in Z like against Hit and Black when he tried to observe them when he first fought them. He was kinda tactical in trying to keep Beerus from getting angry

Killing everyone wasn't tactical, that was just common sense considering he was shocked as hell to see Goku power up so much since his fight with Raditz. Turning ape wasn't tactical at all. That was a last resort move for Vegeta because Goku kicked his ass just before that. I'll give you Namek, he was legit tactical there. That's why Namek Vegeta isn't the only version of the character I like. After Namek he isn't really tactical anymore. He has like one moment with Android 19 by he saw Goku Vs 19 so he already knew hey could absorb ki. The moment is then ruined when a chapter later he moronically throws out a ki blast knowing 20 can absorb it. Vegeta's plan with Boo wasn't a sign of him being tactical. That was a terrible plan. He wasn't really tactical against Black but he was at least thinking of ways to combat Hitto. I'm not saying Vegeta is dumb but he's like Tenshinhan: They both are skilled fighters but aren't all that tactical.

After Namek, we're more so told Vegeta is a tactical genius but we rarely ever actually get to see why he's a tactical genius. As opposed to say Goku or Kuririn who have a lot of feats in fights showing how they're tactical geniuses. It's really my issue with that. In this case they tell and not show, butt since they rarely ever show it, I can't just assume he's a tactical genius, especially since Vegeta is almost always portrayed as a brute who relies almost entirely on raw power.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Many years ago in fact, I thought Vegeta was a mindless brute of a fighter. But seeing some of the things he's done in the the show and I do count much of what he did at the beginning and viewing how other characters see him, even if it is just exposition, has made me give Vegeta at least a little credit as a tactician. In terms of the Dragon Ball world, he's a frickin tactical genius, but that doesn't take much in the DB world. But overall in Super, he was much less of a reckless idiot than he was in the latter parts of Z then in the ToP he's regressed much further below his Z counterpart. He's a damn fool in this tourney. Doesn't want to work with anyone, doesn't want to listen to warnings, literally wants to rush head on into things at every chance he can get. You'd think they brought Gotenks to this tournament and not Vegeta.

[Jigurashi]

He was very tactical when he was first introduced. On Earth, he decided to kill everyone before Goku arrived even when only sensing like 5000 of his power level, then he exploited blutz waves by creating the power ball and turning into a great ape. On Namek, he was the most tactical of anyone I've ever seen in the show with his subterfuge hit and run tactics, zenkai exploitation, and cutthroat brutality. Later on, his bluff against Android 20 was pretty good, even Piccolo commended him for that one and much later I believe it was him who recommended and setup everything Goku need to perform the spirit bomb against Buu, but it's been so long so correct me if I'm wrong there.

*edit Apologies, I read your statement too fast. In Super he's mostly kept a level head in all his battles, being more reserved than he was known for in Z like against Hit and Black when he tried to observe them when he first fought them. He was kinda tactical in trying to keep Beerus from getting angry

Killing everyone wasn't tactical, that was just common sense considering he was shocked as hell to see Goku power up so much since his fight with Raditz. Turning ape wasn't tactical at all. That was a last resort move for Vegeta because Goku kicked his ass just before that. I'll give you Namek, he was legit tactical there. That's why Namek Vegeta isn't the only version of the character I like. After Namek he isn't really tactical anymore. He has like one moment with Android 19 by he saw Goku Vs 19 so he already knew hey could absorb ki. The moment is then ruined when a chapter later he moronically throws out a ki blast knowing 20 can absorb it. Vegeta's plan with Boo wasn't a sign of him being tactical. That was a terrible plan. He wasn't really tactical against Black but he was at least thinking of ways to combat Hitto. I'm not saying Vegeta is dumb but he's like Tenshinhan: They both are skilled fighters but aren't all that tactical.

After Namek, we're more so told Vegeta is a tactical genius but we rarely ever actually get to see why he's a tactical genius. As opposed to say Goku or Kuririn who have a lot of feats in fights showing how they're tactical geniuses. It's really my issue with that. In this case they tell and not show, butt since they rarely ever show it, I can't just assume he's a tactical genius, especially since Vegeta is almost always portrayed as a brute who relies almost entirely on raw power.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Many years ago in fact, I thought Vegeta was a mindless brute of a fighter. But seeing some of the things he's done in the the show and I do count much of what he did at the beginning and viewing how other characters see him, even if it is just exposition, has made me give Vegeta at least a little credit as a tactician. In terms of the Dragon Ball world, he's a frickin tactical genius, but that doesn't take much in the DB world. But overall in Super, he was much less of a reckless idiot than he was in the latter parts of Z then in the ToP he's regressed much further below his Z counterpart. He's a damn fool in this tourney. Doesn't want to work with anyone, doesn't want to listen to warnings, literally wants to rush head on into things at every chance he can get. You'd think they brought Gotenks to this tournament and not Vegeta.

I'd personally love to see Gotenks here in the ToP lol. As for Vegeta, like I won't disregard what he's done in the past but I can't really say he's a tactical genius even in DB when they currently portray him as being a brute (for the most part). He's perfectly capable of being tactical, but I want them to actually explore that about him instead of just mostly saying it. As I've said before, he isn't dumb, he just doesn't get portrayed as being tactical a lot of the time.

[BWri]

I'd personally love to see Gotenks here in the ToP lol. As for Vegeta, like I won't disregard what he's done in the past but I can't really say he's a tactical genius even in DB when they currently portray him as being a brute (for the most part). He's perfectly capable of being tactical, but I want them to actually explore that about him instead of just mostly saying it. As I've said before, he isn't dumb, he just doesn't get portrayed as being tactical a lot of the time.

Well, Vegeta and Goku are acting like Gotenks so there you go lol. Honestly, I wouldn't have said it before episode 106, but now after seeing how lamely he was eliminated, I wish Tien wasn't even in the tourney. Gotenks would've been a better inclusion and I'm a Tien fan. Back to Vegeta, I just want him to be less mindless about all this. His wife and daughter are on the line and he's capable of being smart and observant. This is the worst time for him to think teamwork is icky and doesn't suit his character at this stage in his development. Once I saw him continuously punching that ice guy for two episodes, I knew we'd be getting idiot Vegeta back for the tournament. But yeah, I think they should show more of his tactics. So far in Super, we've mostly seen it in his observations of other people's fights but now he needs to apply it to his fights, because he still has a tendency to panic or forego his calm when he's losing.

[Kinokima]

Perhaps (especially if he gets knocked out so early) this tournament will be just another learning experience for Vegeta.

It's not like he never shows team work. He certainly did when things got desperate in the Goku Black/Zamasu arc. But that also doesn't mean he still doesn't have things to learn.

I still hope even if he gets knocked out early this is still not the end for him completely in the arc. I don't know if I can go weeks and weeks without any Vegeta at all in the series. So I hope the writers have something up their sleeve.

[Jigurashi]

Perhaps (especially if he gets knocked out so early) this tournament will be just another learning experience for Vegeta.

It's not like he never shows team work. He certainly did when things got desperate in the Goku Black/Zamasu arc. But that also doesn't mean he still doesn't have things to learn.

I still hope even if he gets knocked out early this is still not the end for him completely in the arc. I don't know if I can go weeks and weeks without any Vegeta at all in the series. So I hope the writers have something up their sleeve.

We've already gone weeks without Vegeta though, not like it hasn't happened before. Of course that depends on what you define as early. We don't even know if he'll be eliminated.

I'd personally love to see Gotenks here in the ToP lol. As for Vegeta, like I won't disregard what he's done in the past but I can't really say he's a tactical genius even in DB when they currently portray him as being a brute (for the most part). He's perfectly capable of being tactical, but I want them to actually explore that about him instead of just mostly saying it. As I've said before, he isn't dumb, he just doesn't get portrayed as being tactical a lot of the time.

Well, Vegeta and Goku are acting like Gotenks so there you go lol. Honestly, I wouldn't have said it before episode 106, but now after seeing how lamely he was eliminated, I wish Tien wasn't even in the tourney. Gotenks would've been a better inclusion and I'm a Tien fan. Back to Vegeta, I just want him to be less mindless about all this. His wife and daughter are on the line and he's capable of being smart and observant. This is the worst time for him to think teamwork is icky and doesn't suit his character at this stage in his development. Once I saw him continuously punching that ice guy for two episodes, I knew we'd be getting idiot Vegeta back for the tournament. But yeah, I think they should show more of his tactics. So far in Super, we've mostly seen it in his observations of other people's fights but now he needs to apply it to his fights, because he still has a tendency to panic or forego his calm when he's losing.

Agreed, they just need to show him applying this into his fights is all I ask. He's an observant fighter and that's nice but now it's time to take the next step.

[Kinokima]

Perhaps (especially if he gets knocked out so early) this tournament will be just another learning experience for Vegeta.

It's not like he never shows team work. He certainly did when things got desperate in the Goku Black/Zamasu arc. But that also doesn't mean he still doesn't have things to learn.

I still hope even if he gets knocked out early this is still not the end for him completely in the arc. I don't know if I can go weeks and weeks without any Vegeta at all in the series. So I hope the writers have something up their sleeve.

We've already gone weeks without Vegeta though, not like it hasn't happened before. Of course that depends on what you define as early. We don't even know if he'll be eliminated.

He's had a pretty prominent role in Super so far. Maybe I've just been spoiled by that.

Well if the theories are correct he would be the 3rd person eliminated. Maybe even in the next episode. That seems very early for this arc & for Vegeta. Not saying I'd expect him to last till the very end. But there is early and then there is 3rd when much weaker characters are still around. How many episodes do you think are left in this arc? There seems to be a lot more to go.

So for me it's not about his character losing. Losing if done properly can still lead to interesting character development. It's just the idea of him doing nothing for the rest of this arc that bothers me more.

[Jigurashi]

Perhaps (especially if he gets knocked out so early) this tournament will be just another learning experience for Vegeta.

It's not like he never shows team work. He certainly did when things got desperate in the Goku Black/Zamasu arc. But that also doesn't mean he still doesn't have things to learn.

I still hope even if he gets knocked out early this is still not the end for him completely in the arc. I don't know if I can go weeks and weeks without any Vegeta at all in the series. So I hope the writers have something up their sleeve.

We've already gone weeks without Vegeta though, not like it hasn't happened before. Of course that depends on what you define as early. We don't even know if he'll be eliminated.

He's had a pretty prominent role in Super so far. Maybe I've just been spoiled by that.

Well if the theories are correct he would be the 3rd person eliminated. Maybe even in the next episode. That seems very early for this arc & for Vegeta. Not saying I'd expect him to last till the very end. But there is early and then there is 3rd when much weaker characters are still around. How many episodes do you think are left in this arc? There seems to be a lot more to go.

So for me it's not about his character losing. Losing if done properly can still lead to interesting character development. It's just the idea of him doing nothing for the rest of this arc that bothers me more.

I see this tournament ending around 116 but I don't know if that'll mean the saga ends there. I don't see Vegeta going next episode either. I personally don't care at all about Vegeta but I don't want him going third since that would make the ending theory likely correct and It'd be lame to know the order of which characters would be eliminated.

[Arugela]

Maybe Vegeta goes nuts at some point rips open his shirt and reveals his pink shirt underneath... Yells: "I WEAR PINK!!!!" Then starts going crazy and beating up everyone and gets knocked out by being overzealous. Maybe the pressure finally gets to him. I could see a repeat of broly but with different causes.

Then afterwords jiren or roshi or someone steals his pink shirt off him... Afterwords everyone on the bench just kind of tries to process the situation and vegeta unfreaks.

Maybe rhibriahna or whatever her names is has a beam to mess up whipped mens minds. It could be called the whipped dream special beam cannon!