sintzu wrote:
Don't get me wrong, GT's story was a mess but at least it didn't feel like a toy and card commercial and instead was a continuation and closure to DB's story.
Naaah, think you're exaggerating a little bit here. Super's story arcs aren't really that bad. The Zamasu arc was very well-written from a narrative perspective, even the ending, while disappointing to many, was a precedent in creating a situation that cannot be reversed or remedied in any way. Also, I think your assumption about GT not wanting to sell merch is wrong too. GT-introduced chars and SSj4 are mainstays of many games. DB Heroes in particular draws very heavily from it, but even games like Xenoverse borrow these villains quite liberally. Toei made GT to cash in, to ride on the coattails of Z. So it's quite clear that they'd be after various ways of realizing the profit
By the same token, Super does it too. But I don't think it does it to a severely larger degree than GT, or even Z did. Sure there's merch being sold left and right, but you can't presume to know whether that's Toei's sole concern.
DB hasn't just had one identity. The end of DB and DBZ was a complete shift from DB. People who watched DB are a lot older now. Poorly placed food gags do not make the show mature.
No it wasn't. It was no more of a big change than the introduction of Piccolo Daimao. The story changed a lot of the years and yet it still could include huge doses of humor.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Lord Beerus wrote:I hate that so much retcon a lot.
I love this typo for inexplicable reasons.
Regardless, that was a great post and I appreciate that you took the time to express your thoughts so eloquently and completely.
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Concerning the original question, it is going to be many years before a fair comparison can be made between Super and any other installment in the franchise thus far.
Saturnine wrote:Super's story arcs aren't really that bad. The Zamasu arc was very well-written from a narrative perspective.
I think your assumption about GT not wanting to sell merch is wrong too.
There's merch being sold left and right, but you can't presume to know whether that's Toei's sole concern.
I'm not saying they're bad, just that they are merchandise heavy. The Zamasu arc although good, didn't need Future Trunks or Vegetto to work. Black could've just had SsjB instead of a new form that was most likely designed to give to everyone else in games later down the line.
GT and every DB product did but it wasn't the main goal for them like it seems to be with Super. The merch was designed around the stories but in Sper, the story is designed around the merch.
Kai was cut short because it didn't sell much merch so it's clearly a very high priority for them, especially with Bandai being their main sponsor.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
Lord Beerus wrote:I hate that so much retcon a lot.
I love this typo for inexplicable reasons.
Regardless, that was a great post and I appreciate that you took the time to express your thoughts so eloquently and completely.
---
Concerning the original question, it is going to be many years before a fair comparison can be made between Super and any other installment in the franchise thus far.
If you're interested in more typos a deep assessment of Dragon Ball Super from my perspective, just this out. *not a plug*
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
sintzu wrote:
Don't get me wrong, GT's story was a mess but at least it didn't feel like a toy and card commercial and instead was a continuation and closure to DB's story.
Naaah, think you're exaggerating a little bit here. Super's story arcs aren't really that bad. The Zamasu arc was very well-written from a narrative perspective, even the ending, while disappointing to many, was a precedent in creating a situation that cannot be reversed or remedied in any way. Also, I think your assumption about GT not wanting to sell merch is wrong too. GT-introduced chars and SSj4 are mainstays of many games. DB Heroes in particular draws very heavily from it, but even games like Xenoverse borrow these villains quite liberally. Toei made GT to cash in, to ride on the coattails of Z. So it's quite clear that they'd be after various ways of realizing the profit
By the same token, Super does it too. But I don't think it does it to a severely larger degree than GT, or even Z did. Sure there's merch being sold left and right, but you can't presume to know whether that's Toei's sole concern.
There's a clear difference in production goals from something like Super, GT, and even Kai. GT was made specifically to cash in on DB popularity by Toei. Therefore, first and foremost the anime and its story would be the final product and end goal, not the merchandising. Kai was something that was commissioned by Bandai with the specific goal of selling toys which is well documented. It failed to move products, Bandai pulls out and Kai stops being made. We've already seen what happens with a series that is intended to make toys and doesn't deliver. It's hard to image the story is first and foremost. Anyway the point is the end goals between the series are different and GT seems to be more story driven to capitalize on being a successor to Z moreso than Super.
It's a tough one, because my relationship with the series has shifted upon multiple reads.
Is it a worthy continuation of the Boo arc? In my opinion, sure. It kinda discards the whole power-scaling thing the series had going on, which was genuinely consistent until now, but if you can get over that then you might like it.
But then you should ask the same question about the Artificial Human stuff. There's not too much of a dip in quality really, which might mean you can get away with that too.The Freeza/space adventure stuff though? And the Saiyan arc? Then you keep digging back to the absolute gold of early arcs, and you have to ask yourself how far are you willing to let your standards drop?
I'd maybe it's a worthy continuation to the post Freeza stuff. But the quality of the series before that point? Was that your jam? If so yeah I'd say stay far away from Super.
Saturnine wrote:Super's story arcs aren't really that bad. The Zamasu arc was very well-written from a narrative perspective.
I think your assumption about GT not wanting to sell merch is wrong too.
There's merch being sold left and right, but you can't presume to know whether that's Toei's sole concern.
I'm not saying they're bad, just that they are merchandise heavy. The Zamasu arc although good, didn't need Future Trunks or Vegetto to work.
But that's not solely about selling figurines. Both these characters are strong fan favorites, they could have included them just to cash in on the nostalgia. Hell, read this or any other DB board and you'll know how many people would like to see Gogeta again, in a canon setting or otherwise. If he was included, you couldn't say that Toei is just doing this to sell merch, that would be catering to a popular fan demand.
Saturnine wrote:Super's story arcs aren't really that bad. The Zamasu arc was very well-written from a narrative perspective.
I think your assumption about GT not wanting to sell merch is wrong too.
There's merch being sold left and right, but you can't presume to know whether that's Toei's sole concern.
I'm not saying they're bad, just that they are merchandise heavy. The Zamasu arc although good, didn't need Future Trunks or Vegetto to work.
But that's not solely about selling figurines. Both these characters are strong fan favorites, they could have included them just to cash in on the nostalgia. Hell, read this or any other DB board and you'll know how many people would like to see Gogeta again, in a canon setting or otherwise. If he was included, you couldn't say that Toei is just doing this to sell merch, that would be catering to a popular fan demand.
DBS is a merchandise driven show, mostly everything about the show is to cash on nostalgia or fan demand.
Saturnine wrote:Super's story arcs aren't really that bad. The Zamasu arc was very well-written from a narrative perspective.
I think your assumption about GT not wanting to sell merch is wrong too.
There's merch being sold left and right, but you can't presume to know whether that's Toei's sole concern.
I'm not saying they're bad, just that they are merchandise heavy. The Zamasu arc although good, didn't need Future Trunks or Vegetto to work.
But that's not solely about selling figurines. Both these characters are strong fan favorites, they could have included them just to cash in on the nostalgia. Hell, read this or any other DB board and you'll know how many people would like to see Gogeta again, in a canon setting or otherwise. If he was included, you couldn't say that Toei is just doing this to sell merch, that would be catering to a popular fan demand.
But it's not entirely Toei's story. It could have very well gone something like this because we know they pitch ideas to Toriyama all the time.
Toei: Future Trunks and fusion characters are really popular. Could you bring them back in a new arc? Maybe throw in an evil Goku since our focus testing shows that's pretty popular.
Toriyama: Fine.
Toei: It would be nice if you could bring Gogeta in, Vegeta and Goku fusions are really popular.
Toriyama: No thanks.
Toei: Please$?$
Toriyama: Fine, Vegito it is.
Of course I'm exaggerating but the point is we have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. Thing is we do know is that Toriyama gets suggestions for outside sources on what looks to be a regular basis, and that some of those ideas seem to make it into the final product some kind of way. Who is pulling those strings and why is probably purposely kept secret.
TheMikado wrote:Who is pulling those strings and why is probably purposely kept secret.
Bandai is the show's main sponsor so they're most likely the ones with the most influence. They tried to get a new show off the ground in 2008 but Toriyama wouldn't work on it so they did Kai instead and when it didn't move enough merchandise it was cancelled after Cell.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
TheMikado wrote:Who is pulling those strings and why is probably purposely kept secret.
Bandai is the show's main sponsor so they're most likely the ones with the most influence. They tried to get a new show off the ground in 2008 but Toriyama wouldn't work on it so they did Kai instead and when it didn't move enough merchandise it was cancelled after Cell.
I guess if you had any doubt on what would make Super viable as a continued product there's your answer. We've seen pretty clearly what will happen to the series if it fails to sell toys.
No one is saying you can't make a good story and sell toys but its obvious the end goals of this series is different than previous.
TheMikado wrote:No one is saying you can't make a good story and sell toys but its obvious the end goals of this series is different than previous.
Previously merchandise was made around the story, now the story is made around the merchandise. Before the merchandise companies had to work with whatever the story gave them but now the writers have to work with whatever the merchandise companies want to sell.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
TheMikado wrote:No one is saying you can't make a good story and sell toys but its obvious the end goals of this series is different than previous.
Previously merchandise was made around the story, now the story is made around the merchandise. Before the merchandise companies had to work with whatever the story gave them but now the writers have to work with whatever the merchandise companies want to sell.
How does this even make sense since it is Toriyama that creates the story for Dragon Ball Super.
Toei probably just said make an evil Goku as a villain and set it in Future Trunks' timeline so it does not interfere with stories you do in the future. If it was anymore then why would Toriyama write a basic script if Toei have already done one for themselves.
namekiansaiyan wrote:Why would Toriyama write a basic script if Toei have already done one for themselves ?
Them having the ideas doesn't mean they could put them together well. The basic plot of BOG was theirs but he completely changed what they were originally going to do with them.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
TheMikado wrote:No one is saying you can't make a good story and sell toys but its obvious the end goals of this series is different than previous.
Previously merchandise was made around the story, now the story is made around the merchandise. Before the merchandise companies had to work with whatever the story gave them but now the writers have to work with whatever the merchandise companies want to sell.
Sigh... if you actually did some research and not fall into nonsensical made up myths of the fanbase you would know this is 100% patently FALSE. Merchandise companies ARE working with what the story provides NOT the other way around like you seem to believe. Kale the thing that people scream is "merch driven" has one figure so far from Feb 17-18 and it is a mini one and that, yes an entire year from when the arc started Kale will one have one mini figure... Ikari Trunks finally get's a proper figure 13 months after the defeat of Zamasu... SSGSS Kaioken got a figure a year after it made the debut in the Champa arc... speaking of the Champa arc the entire U6 team got shafted by merchandise companies with barely anything substantial released other than some mini WCF and mini keychains, barely promoted on other items too.
So for the last time THIS MYTH THAT SUPER IS "MOULDED BY THE MERCHANDISE" NEEDs TO FREAKING STOP!
