Non-thread-worthy discussions

[Doctor.]

One scene that is commonly misinterpreted is the Kaioken x20 scene back in the Namek arc. Some people think that this blow connects. Kai even added a sound effect to the punch to indicate that there was contact. The reality is that Freeza dodges it.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I already knew about this, but I was talking with a friend about this scene and he had no idea; he was arguing in favor of the scene being this grand last stand that gives us a sliver of hope when I said that the scene already shows us that all hope is lost midway through even before the reveal that Freeza is okay after the Kamehameha. So I'm putting it here just in case some other people don't know as well.

[dbgtFO]

One scene that is commonly misinterpreted is the Kaioken x20 scene back in the Namek arc. Some people think that this blow connects. Kai even added a sound effect to the punch to indicate that there was contact. The reality is that Freeza dodges it.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I already knew about this, but I was talking with a friend about this scene and he had no idea; he was arguing in favor of the scene being this grand last stand that gives us a sliver of hope when I said that the scene already shows us that all hope is lost midway through even before the reveal that Freeza is okay after the Kamehameha. So I'm putting it here just in case some other people don't know as well.

People think that??
That's incredibly counter intuitive, as Freeza is clearly not even going in the direction the punch should have sent him.
Classic modern Toei to fuck it up of course, even now they have Kale landing at the same spot she was blasted the fuck away from

[ABED]

he was arguing in favor of the scene being this grand last stand that gives us a sliver of hope when I said that the scene already shows us that all hope is lost

It's a classic reversal. Goku is getting the hell beaten out of him, it seems he like he's out of gas only to pull out a huge attack that ultimately amounts to very little. It pisses Freeza off and takes most of Goku's remaining energy. It's low point, high point, low point.

[DragonBallKing]

Being someone that's watched lot's of anime ever since being introduced to Dragon Ball/Z roughly 12 years ago, I keep forgetting that many people in real life and on this site are just "Dragon Ball fans" and not necessarily "anime fans".

[ABED]

Being someone that's watched lot's of anime ever since being introduced to Dragon Ball/Z roughly 12 years ago, I keep forgetting that many people in real life and on this site are just "Dragon Ball fans" and not necessarily "anime fans".

I am one of those fans. I like stories, but I don't watch a whole lot of anime.

[floofychan333]

I don't regret starting the topic. I do regret that people could not be mature about discussing it within the context of the series.

Honestly, the whole thread kinda soured me on Kanzenshuu. Like, you had good intentions, and it was a worthwhile topic, but it really did show that the community here could not mange to tackle a sensitive topic with class.

There was a feminism topic that went south roughly a week before the LGBT one was started. I'm not sure what gave the impression that opening up another sensitive topic so soon would go over remotely well, nor why it took multiple political threads going south to give the impression that our user base here lacks the ability to discuss these matters level-headedly.

Why are we unable to have reasonable discussions about these things without somebody rage quitting or making everyone hate them? It seems that even when people are willing to talk about these things somebody comes along and starts saying crazy "backward-assed, knuckle dragging nonsense" (to quote Kunzait), which kind of ruins the experience for everybody including said somebody.

[Doctor.]

Why are we unable to have reasonable discussions about these things without somebody rage quitting or making everyone hate them? It seems that even when people are willing to talk about these things somebody comes along and starts saying crazy "backward-assed, knuckle dragging nonsense" (to quote Kunzait), which kind of ruins the experience for everybody including said somebody.

It's the kind of thread that involves people's rights and experiences. It's very personal, so it's clear it will always be a sensitive topic.

I like stories, but I don't watch a whole lot of anime.

Any particular reason?

[ABED]

Why are we unable to have reasonable discussions about these things without somebody rage quitting or making everyone hate them? It seems that even when people are willing to talk about these things somebody comes along and starts saying crazy "backward-assed, knuckle dragging nonsense" (to quote Kunzait), which kind of ruins the experience for everybody including said somebody.

It's the kind of thread that involves people's rights and experiences. It's very personal, so it's clear it will always be a sensitive topic.

I like stories, but I don't watch a whole lot of anime.

Any particular reason?

Not because of the artform. More due to availability. If the shows were on Netflix, I might sample. I'm thinking of trying One Punch Man. I'd be interested in trying One Piece but I don't like watching stuff on my computer and the show is SO long and it's still ongoing. So there are multiple factors but none of them are inherently about anime itself.

[Doctor.]

Not because of the artform. More due to availability. If the shows were on Netflix, I might sample. I'm thinking of trying One Punch Man. I'd be interested in trying One Piece but I don't like watching stuff on my computer and the show is SO long and it's still ongoing. So there are multiple factors but none of them are inherently about anime itself.

Think there are quite a bit of shows on Netflix but you could always try Crunchyroll, though I understand not wanting to be subscribed to yet another service. One Punch Man is a good show, especially for people new to anime. You're just better off reading the manga with One Piece.

[ABED]

Not because of the artform. More due to availability. If the shows were on Netflix, I might sample. I'm thinking of trying One Punch Man. I'd be interested in trying One Piece but I don't like watching stuff on my computer and the show is SO long and it's still ongoing. So there are multiple factors but none of them are inherently about anime itself.

Think there are quite a bit of shows on Netflix but you could always try Crunchyroll, though I understand not wanting to be subscribed to yet another service. One Punch Man is a good show, especially for people new to anime. You're just better off reading the manga with One Piece.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[8000 Saiyan]

I'd personally recommend One Punch Man over One Piece any day. The latter show just doesn't know when to end. Makes me think Oda is a freaking genius.

[Sexyphobe]

Goku wtihout his blue undershirt, so him just wearing his orange shirt with nothing under it, is ugly.

[DragonBallKing]

Goku wtihout his blue undershirt, so him just wearing his orange shirt with nothing under it, is ugly.

Lets agree to disagree, I love it especially during the tournament and it makes him feel more like a martial artist.

[DragonBallKing]

I'd personally recommend One Punch Man over One Piece any day. The latter show just doesn't know when to end. Makes me think Oda is a freaking genius.

Oda's a beast to bring the level of quality One Piece has weekly for 20 years. If he likes Dragon Ball then I'd suggest Yu Yu Hakusho or even Fist of the North Star.

[8000 Saiyan]

I'd personally recommend One Punch Man over One Piece any day. The latter show just doesn't know when to end. Makes me think Oda is a freaking genius.

Oda's a beast to bring the level of quality One Piece has weekly for 20 years. If he likes Dragon Ball then I'd suggest Yu Yu Hakusho or even Fist of the North Star.

The guy just never seems to run out of ideas. If you're talking about ABED, then he has seen Yu Yu Hakusho. I don't think he has seen Fist of the North Star.

And speaking of One Piece, I gave up on it a long time ago. It has overstayed its welcome much like Naruto and Bleach. Oh, and fucking Pokemon. It makes me wonder how Pokemon fans can watch the same shit all over again.

[Zephyr]

Not because of the artform. More due to availability. If the shows were on Netflix, I might sample. I'm thinking of trying One Punch Man. I'd be interested in trying One Piece but I don't like watching stuff on my computer and the show is SO long and it's still ongoing. So there are multiple factors but none of them are inherently about anime itself.

I know you said you'd prefer to not watch on your computer, but if you haven't watched Satoshi Kon's stuff, I recommend every ounce of that. Mostly films, but Paranoia Agent isn't. Naoki Urasawa's Monster is also great.

Why are we unable to have reasonable discussions about these things without somebody rage quitting or making everyone hate them? It seems that even when people are willing to talk about these things somebody comes along and starts saying crazy "backward-assed, knuckle dragging nonsense" (to quote Kunzait), which kind of ruins the experience for everybody including said somebody.

I don't think it's anything particular about this community. I've not been part of a single online community, that isn't a complete echo chamber, where this isn't a problem with more political topics. I believe there are largely three major factors at play:

1. Tribal epistemology. What counts for historical fact? What counts as a legitimate study? What counts as sincere journalistic reporting? There are largely objective answers to these questions. Unfortunately, the answer to these questions for most appears to be "that which aligns with my ideology", ultimately, on a deep level. This is true of both sides. It's understandable; it's human nature to be tribalist. It is, however, unfortunate, and obstructive to productive conversation about sensitive topics. A difference in degree of education also likely plays a huge part.

2. Lack of training in this sort of thing. I think it would be beneficial if more people were better versed in engaging in group discussions on very contested topics, in an objective, respectful, and moderated manner. It would seem obvious to me, that the more someone has been trained in this sort of thing, the more cool headed they'll consistently be in these topics.

3. We're on the internet. For starters, it's not possible to fully tell (to the extent that you'd be able to tell face-to-face) who is being sincere and who is trolling. Tone doesn't translate well, sarcasm and snark are difficult to detect. Anger can be read where there in fact is none intended. You can't confirm the age of those with whom you're arguing, so you may very well be arguing with an actual, literal 14 year old, masquerading as a legitimately informed and researched 38 year old in the field who simply holds a controversial view. You may very well be arguing with a legitimately informed and researched 38 year old in the field who simply holds a controversial view, but you believe they're just a 14 year old masquerading as one. Moreover, and I think this is the most important part, insults are more easy to slog in either direction, since we're not looking at another human being during such discourse. We're looking at a screen, and the screen exhibits no clear human emotions, facial expressions, etc. It's a very disconnected, detached, alienated, and dehumanizing manner of group discourse. And when the topic is as sensitive as this, I think having a humanized opponent is crucial to avoid things going south.

Now, that's not to say that in-person discussions don't get heated. They certainly do. In fact, moreso in face-to-face discussions than online ones such as a forum, people can, and do, cut one another off, without allowing them to finish their point. Voices can also be raised. And almost more importantly, typing one's thoughts up online allows for more concise, well thought-out, and organized contributions. So I'm not suggesting that face-to-face discussions trump online ones in every regard. Really, I think both forms of communication need to be used together, in order to maximize productive conversation on heated, decisive real-life issues. A group of individuals who meet face-to-face for these discussions, and also make use of formal written discussion on the side, would likely be an optimal way to discuss these kinds of matters. Taken individually, both options come with inherent obstacles that will near-inevitably lead to some break down in legitimate and sincere communication.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Being someone that's watched lot's of anime ever since being introduced to Dragon Ball/Z roughly 12 years ago, I keep forgetting that many people in real life and on this site are just "Dragon Ball fans" and not necessarily "anime fans".

Ever since my eyes opened to other anime, it is only then I begun to realise that DB wasn't as a great a show I thought it was in terms of writing but it made me appreciate some things that I otherwise didn't before, ie the comedy, humour and actual characters themselves & their interactions and it is why I am enjoying Dragon Ball Super so much it has all of these as it's driving force.

[ABED]

The guy just never seems to run out of ideas. If you're talking about ABED, then he has seen Yu Yu Hakusho. I don't think he has seen Fist of the North Star.

Yes on YYH, no on Fist of the North Star.

[floofychan333]

Not because of the artform. More due to availability. If the shows were on Netflix, I might sample. I'm thinking of trying One Punch Man. I'd be interested in trying One Piece but I don't like watching stuff on my computer and the show is SO long and it's still ongoing. So there are multiple factors but none of them are inherently about anime itself.

I know you said you'd prefer to not watch on your computer, but if you haven't watched Satoshi Kon's stuff, I recommend every ounce of that. Mostly films, but Paranoia Agent isn't. Naoki Urasawa's Monster is also great.

Why are we unable to have reasonable discussions about these things without somebody rage quitting or making everyone hate them? It seems that even when people are willing to talk about these things somebody comes along and starts saying crazy "backward-assed, knuckle dragging nonsense" (to quote Kunzait), which kind of ruins the experience for everybody including said somebody.

I don't think it's anything particular about this community. I've not been part of a single online community, that isn't a complete echo chamber, where this isn't a problem with more political topics. I believe there are largely three major factors at play:

1. Tribal epistemology. What counts for historical fact? What counts as a legitimate study? What counts as sincere journalistic reporting? There are largely objective answers to these questions. Unfortunately, the answer to these questions for most appears to be "that which aligns with my ideology", ultimately, on a deep level. This is true of both sides. It's understandable; it's human nature to be tribalist. It is, however, unfortunate, and obstructive to productive conversation about sensitive topics. A difference in degree of education also likely plays a huge part.

2. Lack of training in this sort of thing. I think it would be beneficial if more people were better versed in engaging in group discussions on very contested topics, in an objective, respectful, and moderated manner. It would seem obvious to me, that the more someone has been trained in this sort of thing, the more cool headed they'll consistently be in these topics.

3. We're on the internet. For starters, it's not possible to fully tell (to the extent that you'd be able to tell face-to-face) who is being sincere and who is trolling. Tone doesn't translate well, sarcasm and snark are difficult to detect. Anger can be read where there in fact is none intended. You can't confirm the age of those with whom you're arguing, so you may very well be arguing with an actual, literal 14 year old, masquerading as a legitimately informed and researched 38 year old in the field who simply holds a controversial view. You may very well be arguing with a legitimately informed and researched 38 year old in the field who simply holds a controversial view, but you believe they're just a 14 year old masquerading as one. Moreover, and I think this is the most important part, insults are more easy to slog in either direction, since we're not looking at another human being during such discourse. We're looking at a screen, and the screen exhibits no clear human emotions, facial expressions, etc. It's a very disconnected, detached, alienated, and dehumanizing manner of group discourse. And when the topic is as sensitive as this, I think having a humanized opponent is crucial to avoid things going south.

Now, that's not to say that in-person discussions don't get heated. They certainly do. In fact, moreso in face-to-face discussions than online ones such as a forum, people can, and do, cut one another off, without allowing them to finish their point. Voices can also be raised. And almost more importantly, typing one's thoughts up online allows for more concise, well thought-out, and organized contributions. So I'm not suggesting that face-to-face discussions trump online ones in every regard. Really, I think both forms of communication need to be used together, in order to maximize productive conversation on heated, decisive real-life issues. A group of individuals who meet face-to-face for these discussions, and also make use of formal written discussion on the side, would likely be an optimal way to discuss these kinds of matters. Taken individually, both options come with inherent obstacles that will near-inevitably lead to some break down in legitimate and sincere communication.

You make valid points. However, I still don't get how just one person can ruin the whole thing for everyone. Most people with controversial views here seem to know how to keep their mouths shut but occasionally one will come on and instantly make enemies. We seem unable to be respectful on both sides as well; quite often the people who make the best arguments do so while personally attacking the other user.

[PelicanDynasty]

Being someone that's watched lot's of anime ever since being introduced to Dragon Ball/Z roughly 12 years ago, I keep forgetting that many people in real life and on this site are just "Dragon Ball fans" and not necessarily "anime fans".

Yeah this is me. Have tried some other series but really can't get into them. I would like to give some of the shorter series a try at some point though.