Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TAF108]

She let Vegeta wear himself out sure, but it's not like when he was running full steam he stood much of a chance. 18 never seemed phased by anything he did, the most he accomplished was dirtying her clothes. Her tiring him out seems more like the way she fights than her actually needing to do so. No. 18 shouldn't be far off from 17, who was equal to Kamicollo. And weighted Kamicollo was already stronger than SSJ Vegeta, who was significantly stronger than Mirai Trunks.
Looking at it as 17 = Kamicollo > 18 > Weighted Kamicollo > SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Trunks. There just seems to be to large a gap for me to consider everyone to be neck and neck (numerically speaking.)

I agree with this, but lets not forget how badly Vegeta stomped Dadoria (power level 22,000) when he had a power level of only 24,000. So the gaps really don't have to be that big to dominate your opponent when the stronger one is serious. Another example is Krilling with a power level of around 2,000 killed 4 saibamen with power levels of 1,2000 with one attack.

I wouldn't say it's to comparable, Krillin was using a ki attack and those amplify one's power quite a bit. If we take games seriously and considered it a "Kamehame-Ha", Krillin put quite a bit of effort into that attack. I'm not denying that the 20% difference is a big deal, it certainly is (or was, considering how DBS approaches gaps.) But the big stich of the Artificial Humans was how little effort they gave when fighting the Z-Fighters. Trunks is the most basic example, he got KO'd be Vegeta's body. (Either hitting it or being hit by it. I mostly look at from the difference between Piccolo and Kamicollo.

[TAF108]

It was clearly stated in that episode that Gohan had a plan against Botamo. Nothing to do with strength comparison.
Goku's punches were horizontal, Gohans attacks were vertical uppercuts/kick. Causing Botamo to be lifted up.

I figured as much. Oh well. Perhaps I'll find some consistency in whatever fight Frost gets into. (Assuming he actually gets to/attempts to fight when we shine the light on him.) Ever since Hit said he improved I've been kinda eager to see what he was capable of.

[avasatu]

You could argue that Gohan vs. Botamo is another indication that the Saiyans are universal+, albeit with some axioms attached. You have to believe Botamo isn't limited in his ability to transfer force to his pocket dimension, and you have to believe that said pocket dimension is comparable to our universe in size. If you buy that, Gohan moving Botamo means the pocket dimension was being hit with so much force that it couldn't absorb it all per attack, and some leaked out, producing some momentum.

I'm too lazy to rewatch, but if Gohan was in base form, then this can't be right, but it's fun to consider. The pocket dimension is probably just small.

[dragon boss z]

She let Vegeta wear himself out sure, but it's not like when he was running full steam he stood much of a chance. 18 never seemed phased by anything he did, the most he accomplished was dirtying her clothes. Her tiring him out seems more like the way she fights than her actually needing to do so. No. 18 shouldn't be far off from 17, who was equal to Kamicollo. And weighted Kamicollo was already stronger than SSJ Vegeta, who was significantly stronger than Mirai Trunks.
Looking at it as 17 = Kamicollo > 18 > Weighted Kamicollo > SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Trunks. There just seems to be to large a gap for me to consider everyone to be neck and neck (numerically speaking.)

I agree with this, but lets not forget how badly Vegeta stomped Dadoria (power level 22,000) when he had a power level of only 24,000. So the gaps really don't have to be that big to dominate your opponent when the stronger one is serious. Another example is Krilling with a power level of around 2,000 killed 4 saibamen with power levels of 1,2000 with one attack.

I wouldn't say it's to comparable, Krillin was using a ki attack and those amplify one's power quite a bit. If we take games seriously and considered it a "Kamehame-Ha", Krillin put quite a bit of effort into that attack. I'm not denying that the 20% difference is a big deal, it certainly is (or was, considering how DBS approaches gaps.) But the big stich of the Artificial Humans was how little effort they gave when fighting the Z-Fighters. Trunks is the most basic example, he got KO'd be Vegeta's body. (Either hitting it or being hit by it. I mostly look at from the difference between Piccolo and Kamicollo.

I think Vegeta before getting tired may of been 20% weaker than 18, which is why he was able to put up a fight for a bit, but I think Trunks was weaker than Vegeta by at least 10-20%, which would make sense why he got bodied by 18. The androids couldn't of been too far ahead because 17 said if all of them gained up on 18 she could possibly lose.

[dragon boss z]

You could argue that Gohan vs. Botamo is another indication that the Saiyans are universal+

Well that's a stretch, lol.

You have to believe Botamo isn't limited in his ability to transfer force to his pocket dimension, and you have to believe that said pocket dimension is comparable to our universe in size. If you buy that, Gohan moving Botamo means the pocket dimension was being hit with so much force that it couldn't absorb it all per attack, and some leaked out, producing some momentum.

I'm too lazy to rewatch, but if Gohan was in base form, then this can't be right, but it's fun to consider. The pocket dimension is probably just small.

I'm pretty sure the transference to another dimension thing was an anime only statement and if I remember correctly it was one of the kais making a guess, not someone officially explaining how it worked.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You could argue that Gohan vs. Botamo is another indication that the Saiyans are universal+

Well that's a stretch, lol.

I'm pretty sure the transference to another dimension thing was an anime only statement and if I remember correctly it was one of the kais making a guess, not someone officially explaining how it worked.

It was Jaco who speculated on that.

Also, regardless of the explanation, the result is the same: Botamo absorbs actual damage, but his body is rubbery enough to be beaten around with the right strategy, like when SS Vegeta tied him up, or when Gohan used the momentum of his punches to cause Botamo to float in the air.

[dragon boss z]

You could argue that Gohan vs. Botamo is another indication that the Saiyans are universal+

I'm pretty sure the transference to another dimension thing was an anime only statement and if I remember correctly it was one of the kais making a guess, not someone officially explaining how it worked.

It was Jaco who speculated on that.

Also, regardless of the explanation, the result is the same: Botamo absorbs actual damage, but his body is rubbery enough to be beaten around with the right strategy, like when SS Vegeta tied him up, or when Gohan used the momentum of his punches to cause Botamo to float in the air.

Yes I know, I was just pointing out how weird it was to us Botamo's physical resistance to try and prove DBS characters are universal, lol.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I figure i might as well post this here. This is my personal opinion about the strongest 10 fighters in the Tournament of Power, as of right now:

#10: Android 17. Let's face it, this arc he's been more impressive than Gohan. That could change in the future but for now I give him the nod over Gohan.

#9: Dyspo. Strong, powerful, and has a dangerous ability that lets him compete with Hit and Goku, to an extent.

#8: Ribrianne. She hasn't shown everything she has yet, and spoilers indicate she'll be fighting Goku in upcoming episodes, giving him more trouble. She was also able to hold of 17.

#7: Kale. Her berserker form let her walk through SSJB Goku's Kamehameha, she broke Cocotte's dimension technique, and with Caulifla overwhelmed the weaker Pride Troopers, as well as going on a rampage across the ring that Jiren had to stop.

#6: Vegeta. He's SSJB and has improved a lot since the Tournament with Universe 6, so I'll give him the nod over Kale.

#5. Toppo. He can stand up against SSJB Kaio-ken, which already puts him above Vegeta.

#4. Goku. He never used Kaio-ken to its full extent against Toppo, and I think if they had a real match to the finish Goku would win.

#3. Freeza. Personally I see him as being stronger than Goku right now, considering the way they both handled Sidra's destruction energy and such. You could argue that the Kaio-ken forms would beat him but I think the mastered Golden form can edge it out considering it no longer has a stamina weakness.

#2. Hit. Not only does he have all kinds of dangerous techniques, but he's been consistently shown to be above Goku every time they fought, and he's still improving as the tournament goes on.

#1. Jiren. Self-explanatory.

[CJStriker_CBR]

I figure i might as well post this here. This is my personal opinion about the strongest 10 fighters in the Tournament of Power, as of right now:

#10: Android 17. Let's face it, this arc he's been more impressive than Gohan. That could change in the future but for now I give him the nod over Gohan.

#9: Dyspo. Strong, powerful, and has a dangerous ability that lets him compete with Hit and Goku, to an extent.

#8: Ribrianne. She hasn't shown everything she has yet, and spoilers indicate she'll be fighting Goku in upcoming episodes, giving him more trouble. She was also able to hold of 17.

#7: Kale. Her berserker form let her walk through SSJB Goku's Kamehameha, she broke Cocotte's dimension technique, and with Caulifla overwhelmed the weaker Pride Troopers, as well as going on a rampage across the ring that Jiren had to stop.

#6: Vegeta. He's SSJB and has improved a lot since the Tournament with Universe 6, so I'll give him the nod over Kale.

#5. Toppo. He can stand up against SSJB Kaio-ken, which already puts him above Vegeta.

#4. Goku. He never used Kaio-ken to its full extent against Toppo, and I think if they had a real match to the finish Goku would win.

#3. Freeza. Personally I see him as being stronger than Goku right now, considering the way they both handled Sidra's destruction energy and such. You could argue that the Kaio-ken forms would beat him but I think the mastered Golden form can edge it out considering it no longer has a stamina weakness.

#2. Hit. Not only does he have all kinds of dangerous techniques, but he's been consistently shown to be above Goku every time they fought, and he's still improving as the tournament goes on.

#1. Jiren. Self-explanatory.

Good List.

By the End of the Battle Between Goku vs. Ribrianne I Theories and Believe Strongly that Ribrianne will be at least at the level of Goku SSJ-Blue by the end of their Fight. ~~~ However I think Ribrianne will have further to Go then that too as the ToP goes on at the time of the Special and Beyond it!

Also, I think Gohan is going to keep rising in power in this Arc too. I am not even close in counting him out yet of the Top Power Brackets, but like Ribrianne, Gohan we will see further down the Road in Power, but I think to with each fight he will show stronger and stronger levels, just need to give Gohan some time.

[apex_pretador]

I figure i might as well post this here. This is my personal opinion about the strongest 10 fighters in the Tournament of Power, as of right now:

#10: Android 17. Let's face it, this arc he's been more impressive than Gohan. That could change in the future but for now I give him the nod over Gohan.

#9: Dyspo. Strong, powerful, and has a dangerous ability that lets him compete with Hit and Goku, to an extent.

#8: Ribrianne. She hasn't shown everything she has yet, and spoilers indicate she'll be fighting Goku in upcoming episodes, giving him more trouble. She was also able to hold of 17.

#7: Kale. Her berserker form let her walk through SSJB Goku's Kamehameha, she broke Cocotte's dimension technique, and with Caulifla overwhelmed the weaker Pride Troopers, as well as going on a rampage across the ring that Jiren had to stop.

#6: Vegeta. He's SSJB and has improved a lot since the Tournament with Universe 6, so I'll give him the nod over Kale.

#5. Toppo. He can stand up against SSJB Kaio-ken, which already puts him above Vegeta.

#4. Goku. He never used Kaio-ken to its full extent against Toppo, and I think if they had a real match to the finish Goku would win.

#3. Freeza. Personally I see him as being stronger than Goku right now, considering the way they both handled Sidra's destruction energy and such. You could argue that the Kaio-ken forms would beat him but I think the mastered Golden form can edge it out considering it no longer has a stamina weakness.

#2. Hit. Not only does he have all kinds of dangerous techniques, but he's been consistently shown to be above Goku every time they fought, and he's still improving as the tournament goes on.

#1. Jiren. Self-explanatory.

I'd put Gohan above 17 and Ribanne, but otherwise I agree. I'd also put Goku above Freeza and Hit with kaioKen x10 and definitely with x20

[JazzMazz]

In the Manga, it seems that Beerus is one of, if not the strongest GoD based purely off leaks.

I see why Toyotaro is doing this though. By having Beerus a league ahead of the other GoD's, they're moving the marker of how strong other mortals stronger than their GoDs are. This means, if Jiren is stronger than Belmond, that still means he would be weaker than Beerus.

This very much keeps in line with Toriyama not planning to have Goku and Vegeta surpass Beerus anytime soon.

[Zamasu55]

So Beerus's literally toying with every Hakaishin. Interesting.

[Bullza]

Yeah going by the scans that I'm looking at, Beerus seems to be fighting against all the other Gods of Destruction at once and.....he's winning.

He's got to be the strongest God of Destruction of the lot. Maybe Champa would be second as they fought somewhat evenly back in the past.

So perhaps these other Gods of Destruction are perhaps Super Saiyan Blue level. Might make sense then why Sidra didn't seem to be too confident with taking down Frieza. Vegeta did at least hit Beerus.

[ZombieVito]

Ultimate Gohan is fighting Final form Freeza in the NEP.

[Lord Beerus]

- Maji-Kayo gives Dyspo some trouble
- Jiren easily defeats Maji-Kayo
- Frost pins down Roshi easily.
- Roshi beefs up and starting beating up on Frost... who no sells his assault, easily subdues Roshi and sends Roshi flying with one punch.
- Roshi still had enough in the tank to perform the Mafuba against Frost, but couldn't pull it off properly as his arm was damaged from battle leading his to misdirect the technique and miss putting Frost into the Mafuba jar
- Roshi tries to use the Mafuba on Magetta but Frost (somehow) reverses the Mafuba and uses it on Vegeta, and is successful. But the jar gets broken.
- Roshi is on the verge of death from overusing the Mafuba, so he takes Vegeta's advice and willingly eliminates himself to eat a senzu and not die.
- Vegeta turns his attention to Frost and Frost hightails it

EDIT: The NEP has... ULTIMATE GOHAN TAKING ON FINAL FORM FREEZA.
EDIT(2): The NEP also shows that Goku is fighting Ribrianne in his base form

[ZombieVito]

Good luck explaining that with one base.

[Bullza]

New episode (finally).

- Maji Kayo gave Dyspo some trouble, I don't know if I'd say that makes him God level or he just caught off guard mixed with his weird body allowed him to do better than usual.

- Jiren defeated him in a single attack, couldn't tell if it was a blast or just the sheer force of a punch.

- Master Roshi at Max Power fought Final Form Frost. Never hit him and was beaten in one attack pretty quickly but he did make Frost look a bit uneasy.

- Base Vegeta smacked Frost away no problem and looked as though he was about to fight him in Base form before Magetta showed up.

- Magetta still looks to be Super Saiyan level, I would say he was superior to Frost still considering the way that Frost was using him.

- Frost clashed with Super Saiyan Vegeta for a couple seconds. I'm not really sure if Frost is supposed to be Base or Super Saiyan level or just very in the middle.

From the preview for the next episode.

- Base Gohan hits Frieza in the face which looks like it hurt him. Probably going to fight him in Base form for a bit.

- Base Goku meanwhile seems to be giving it a good go against Ribrianne who was earlier shown to be on par with Android 17.

The Gohan and Frieza fight will likely put any of this retcon theory business to rest as well. As strange as it would be, they'd just be that strong.

[Bullza]

Ultimate Gohan is fighting Final form Freeza in the NEP.

Oh yeah it might be Ultimate Gohan. There was no bang there for the most part but if you pause it right then you can see it.

So yeah that could be weird unless Ultimate Gohan beats the tar out of him easily.

[ZombieVito]

Next week should be very interesting.

If Freeza needs his Golden form to beat Gohan then there's no other way to make sense of things than with SbG. Otherwise it's impossible.

[Marlowe89]

- Base Gohan hits Frieza in the face which looks like it hurt him. Probably going to fight him in Base form for a bit.

I managed to freeze the frame during the split second where Gohan's face was visible in that shot where he punched Frieza, and I could definitely see the bang. Looks like Ultimate to me. EDIT: Beat to the punch, apparently.

If he fights him in Ultimate then it's only going to strengthen the retcon interpretation, really. Ribrianne certainly doesn't harm it, considering she also held her own against Super Saiyan Vegeta and Android 17 who fought against SSB Goku.