Too Many Fodder Characters & Bad Matchups

[Doctor.]

The match-ups could be a lot more interesting too, but I'd say that as the tournament has been progressing, the match ups have been getting a lot better. [...] They botched the beginning of the tournament for sure in terms of interesting match-ups/dealing with characters who weren't nameless fodder.

I seem to remember we had a debate about a month ago where you argued that this wasn't the case.

[omaro34]

It's just not interesting. Goku and Vegeta don't need to overcome anything since they can just go Super Saiyan Blue and deal with the threat immediately.

It drives me nuts when Goku is held back by a fighter he can easily overwhelm and just use instant transmission to where he wants to go. Instead he stands there watching using his regular super saiyan form to consume energy.

I'm not looking forward to him fighting Ribrianne, only because he likely won't go all out. Any fight where Goku and Vegeta aren't trying isn't interesting, and we have seen far too many of those in this tournament.

[Bullza]

It's not surprising that at least half of the fighters are fodder, but it's way more than half. When I say fodder I mean a character who lacks the skill and power to ever potentially compete with people who are relevant to the main plot, example if there were more fighters that could at least keep up SOMEWHAT with Android 17 or Gohan, I wouldn't consider them fodder, but 90% of these fighters are too weak to even make a scratch on them.

Previous tournaments and tournaments in other show being mostly fodder isn't a good reason to do it again. Tournaments on Earth having a ton of weaklings is not surprising at all, they're mostly humans. However, a tournament spanning 8 different universes and probably 50+ planets at a minimum and a majority of the fighters so far are not that much stronger than top tier humans? Doesn't really make sense to me and eliminates a huge opportunity to make new characters really strong to compete with some of the stronger U7 characters.

If this was realistic, and things like Saiyans and transformations naturally evolving were real, I would expect there to be at least one character at SSG or SSB level from each universe, whether it's through raw power or uniquely powerful abilities that go beyond just power. Not necessarily able to compete with Goku or Vegeta, but within close range of power. Simply by the fact of how many universes there are.

For example when I saw Maji Kayo being able to shift his body mass around I started thinking this guy could have super regeneration like Buu, only maybe stronger. A skill like that could potentially compete with SSB with enough power behind it. But of course he's eliminated after not even getting a real fight getting one shotted by Jiren. Just imagine how interesting of a fight he could have had if he was placed against someone slightly weaker like Android 17 or Gohan.

It doesn't help that they keep placing these relatively weak characters against people like Hit, Goku, and Vegeta which makes for a fight that is not interesting because it's only prolonged by them holding back when really they could one shot most of them. Which also wouldn't happen if they didn't make so many fodder.

They've had to mix it up significantly so that there's people Goku can beat and then also those that Roshi and Krillin can beat. Shosa, Ganos and Majora might be fodder to Goku but they gave the humans a tough time.

Goku was able to give Beerus a really good fight and I'd imagine that would be somewhat rare amongst all the universes. So I'm not too surprised that there aren't too many characters of that level.

There's a few though, Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Hit, Kale and Ribrianne. There could end up being a few more because we don't know what might happen with Caulifla or the Namekian or Damon or if there might be anyone else.

I'd have found it more farfetched if there were too many that were close to Goku though. In Universe 7 not too long ago Frieza and the Ginyu Force would have been the strongest.

[Asura]

The match-ups could be a lot more interesting too, but I'd say that as the tournament has been progressing, the match ups have been getting a lot better. [...] They botched the beginning of the tournament for sure in terms of interesting match-ups/dealing with characters who weren't nameless fodder.

I seem to remember we had a debate about a month ago where you argued that this wasn't the case.

Not at all, I agreed with you a month ago (pretty sure it was a lot longer than that though since it was around the time 99 came out) that characters who weren't nameless fodder like Murichim, Nairama, etc. being completely wasted was an example of botching the potential that those characters could have brought. I also agreed with you that it would have been more interesting if the enemies Goku and co. fought actually had some sort of interesting counter to them instead of just being fodder whose gimmick is completely ignored once Goku decides to just say fuck it and hit them. But I also said that you can't have 80 characters and have them all be unique like that. I was riding under the assumption that we would eventually be seeing a few characters like this in later episodes, which I think is starting to be the case now with stuff like Hit vs Dyspo, Roshi/Vegeta vs Frost/Magetta, Gohan vs Obuni, etc. but it definitely could have been used when more characters were still in the arena.

What I was saying a month ago that we were arguing about was in terms of trying to flesh out all 80 of these characters to have at least one interesting thing about them. You were complaining about this by the second episode of the tournament which is when I said how can you be complaining about trying to flesh out 80 characters and complaining about it by only the 2nd episode.

[Zagacious]

Why doesn't it make sense the bottoms of other rosters would be similar to U7?

It's not that the bottoms are similar, it's that for most of the universes, even their strongest warriors are on the bottom end of power in comparison to U7. Ganos was supposed to be one of the strongest of his universe and he was beaten by Roshi, and even if he wasn't the strongest, all the other characters got eliminated with almost no effort by U7. You'd expect more universes to have a few people at least beyond Buu Saga level, but most of them are much weaker than that. We already knew U7 was going to dominate, but they made it even worse by the constant repetitive U7 fighter screws around and holds back for 5 minutes, pretends it's even a remote challenge, and then KO's them easily. If they're going to have so many universes being this weak, at least pair them against someone comparable like they did with Roshi.

Goku, Vegeta, and even Android 17 toying around with someone who has no chance against them is only interesting for so long.

They're definitely improving it, but it's still a major problem. Bigger fights that should be more important and last longer like Vegeta vs Magetta are cut short while the fights with Goku/Veg vs fodder are stretched out as long as possible. As good as the fight between Hit and Dyspo was, it was very short as well. It would have been much better if Goku was not involved at all.

[BWri]

It's just not interesting. Goku and Vegeta don't need to overcome anything since they can just go Super Saiyan Blue and deal with the threat immediately.

It drives me nuts when Goku is held back by a fighter he can easily overwhelm and just use instant transmission to where he wants to go. Instead he stands there watching using his regular super saiyan form to consume energy.

I'm not looking forward to him fighting Ribrianne, only because he likely won't go all out. Any fight where Goku and Vegeta aren't trying isn't interesting, and we have seen far too many of those in this tournament.

This is mostly why I'm antagonistic towards Goku and Vegeta in this arc. They're getting in all these fights and none of them matter because the two are holding back the entire time. Even the little caveat of conserving stamina for Blue is thrown out the window as soon as they run into trouble. They spam Blue with seemingly little or no consequence anyway. Every bit of screen time wasted on them early on could be used on the weaker characters who should be struggling in this tourney. Then later, when the stakes are actually high with the competition whittling down, bring out the heavies so we can enjoy the Battle Royale proper.

So either just make Goku and Vegeta go SSJ2 or SSJG and roflstomp everyone or keep them off the screen and let Piccolo, Gohan, and the Androids fight opponents closer to their levels. This false tension is killing my enjoyment.

[TBMx]

People were still tense over Vegeta because of the elimination theory and history of being used as fodder to put over Goku's opponents.

The problem lies squarely with Goku. They spoiled the new form and the fact that Goku will be getting a lot of focus in the endgame, why does he need to be prominent in the early game? Goku, as he became more powerful in Dragonball and through Dragonball Z, became an end game piece. Which is how he's supposed to be used. If he's in the beginning there's no chance of him being eliminated and no challenge. The only reason to do it is to remind the audience that he's the man, but that doesnt need much screentime. This is an example of a character becoming so big that he's bigger than the story itself. Which is always a bad thing. It means story suffers as Goku is shown off just for the sake of seeing him.

[Spider-Man]

Yeah there way too many fodder Even the character got screentime I'm looking at you Murichim and Nigrisshi as well Ganos through he had a fight but he got eliminated by a weak character Which I was disappointed by This saga,it doesn't help u7 and 6 have the most elimination & 5 non u7/6 fighter have elimination.

And I agree with the comments of Goku & Vegeta hoggin all the weakling,it is really infuriating.

[Zagacious]

Two months later and this theme of U7 holds back against an incredibly weak fighter and then slaughters them once they actually start trying has only gotten worse. Ribrianne (who I thought at the time would actually amount to something) ended up being entirely wasted as a fighter. Her transformation amounted to basically being two shotted vs 18.

The only really good matchups so far:

Basil vs Napapa (although short, still nice because it made a relatively weaker character relevant for a moment)
Roshi vs Ganos (his other fights were decent too, but they were extremely brief)
Roshi and Vegeta vs Frost and Magetta
Hit & Goku vs Dyspo & Kunshi (although admittedly was kind of ruined by Goku's intervention)
Goku vs Kefla (since Goku is so tired though and still won, she would probably be easily defeated by someone like Vegeta)
Gohan vs Obuni

Goku vs Jiren
Hit vs Jiren

Let's hope we see Vegeta vs Toppo soon, because that is LONG overdue.
I hope we eventually get to see Frieza help against Jiren, not solo Jiren but assist fighting him in some way later on, because Frieza hasn't gotten any real fights yet either.

Am I missing any major fights? If one character is defeated with no effort from the other one, I don't consider that a good fight.

[The_Destroyer]

Two months later and this theme of U7 holds back against an incredibly weak fighter and then slaughters them once they actually start trying has only gotten worse. Ribrianne (who I thought at the time would actually amount to something) ended up being entirely wasted as a fighter. Her transformation amounted to basically being two shotted vs 18.

The only really good matchups so far:

Basil vs Napapa (although short, still nice because it made a relatively weaker character relevant for a moment)
Roshi vs Ganos (his other fights were decent too, but they were extremely brief)
Roshi and Vegeta vs Frost and Magetta
Hit & Goku vs Dyspo & Kunshi (although admittedly was kind of ruined by Goku's intervention)
Goku vs Kefla (since Goku is so tired though and still won, she would probably be easily defeated by someone like Vegeta)
Gohan vs Obuni

Goku vs Jiren
Hit vs Jiren

Let's hope we see Vegeta vs Toppo soon, because that is LONG overdue.
I hope we eventually get to see Frieza help against Jiren, not solo Jiren but assist fighting him in some way later on, because Frieza hasn't gotten any real fights yet either.

Am I missing any major fights? If one character is defeated with no effort from the other one, I don't consider that a good fight.

Krillin vs. Majora seemed pretty good since they were even.

I wanna say Gohan vs. Jimize and Borareta but those characters only looked good because Gohan was an idiot and sandbagging.

[namekiansaiyan]

Two months later and this theme of U7 holds back against an incredibly weak fighter and then slaughters them once they actually start trying has only gotten worse. Ribrianne (who I thought at the time would actually amount to something) ended up being entirely wasted as a fighter. Her transformation amounted to basically being two shotted vs 18.

The only really good matchups so far:

Basil vs Napapa (although short, still nice because it made a relatively weaker character relevant for a moment)
Roshi vs Ganos (his other fights were decent too, but they were extremely brief)
Roshi and Vegeta vs Frost and Magetta
Hit & Goku vs Dyspo & Kunshi (although admittedly was kind of ruined by Goku's intervention)
Goku vs Kefla (since Goku is so tired though and still won, she would probably be easily defeated by someone like Vegeta)
Gohan vs Obuni

Goku vs Jiren
Hit vs Jiren

Let's hope we see Vegeta vs Toppo soon, because that is LONG overdue.
I hope we eventually get to see Frieza help against Jiren, not solo Jiren but assist fighting him in some way later on, because Frieza hasn't gotten any real fights yet either.

Am I missing any major fights? If one character is defeated with no effort from the other one, I don't consider that a good fight.

Krillin vs. Majora seemed pretty good since they were even.

I wanna say Gohan vs. Jimize and Borareta but those characters only looked good because Gohan was an idiot and sandbagging.

Gohan will always be an idiot so there is nothing out of character in those situations that you mentioned.

[The_Destroyer]

Two months later and this theme of U7 holds back against an incredibly weak fighter and then slaughters them once they actually start trying has only gotten worse. Ribrianne (who I thought at the time would actually amount to something) ended up being entirely wasted as a fighter. Her transformation amounted to basically being two shotted vs 18.

The only really good matchups so far:

Basil vs Napapa (although short, still nice because it made a relatively weaker character relevant for a moment)
Roshi vs Ganos (his other fights were decent too, but they were extremely brief)
Roshi and Vegeta vs Frost and Magetta
Hit & Goku vs Dyspo & Kunshi (although admittedly was kind of ruined by Goku's intervention)
Goku vs Kefla (since Goku is so tired though and still won, she would probably be easily defeated by someone like Vegeta)
Gohan vs Obuni

Goku vs Jiren
Hit vs Jiren

Let's hope we see Vegeta vs Toppo soon, because that is LONG overdue.
I hope we eventually get to see Frieza help against Jiren, not solo Jiren but assist fighting him in some way later on, because Frieza hasn't gotten any real fights yet either.

Am I missing any major fights? If one character is defeated with no effort from the other one, I don't consider that a good fight.

Krillin vs. Majora seemed pretty good since they were even.

I wanna say Gohan vs. Jimize and Borareta but those characters only looked good because Gohan was an idiot and sandbagging.

Gohan will always be an idiot so there is nothing out of character in those situations that you mentioned.

Well I dont disagree with that. Although I wish Jimize put up a better fight against Frieza. Or that he didnt job to him at all and it was Rabanara who did instead so Jimize couldve been the final boss of Universe 2.

[SsjCookie]

People were still tense over Vegeta because of the elimination theory and history of being used as fodder to put over Goku's opponents.

The problem lies squarely with Goku. They spoiled the new form and the fact that Goku will be getting a lot of focus in the endgame, why does he need to be prominent in the early game? Goku, as he became more powerful in Dragonball and through Dragonball Z, became an end game piece. Which is how he's supposed to be used. If he's in the beginning there's no chance of him being eliminated and no challenge. The only reason to do it is to remind the audience that he's the man, but that doesnt need much screentime. This is an example of a character becoming so big that he's bigger than the story itself. Which is always a bad thing. It means story suffers as Goku is shown off just for the sake of seeing him.

Agreed with the above, the tournament lays way too much focus on Goku early on.
Why bother with the other participants of U7 if it just becomes a Goku$%#@fest in the end anyway.