Do you think the dragon ball fandom are too hard on toei?

[Totamo]

I'm not just talking about super but ball and z as well. You know, the filler arcs, long winded battles , power scale blips and a bunch of stuff.

But do you think the fandom has given them to much crap more than they deserve? Many have said that they wish Toei gave dragon ball to madhouse.


Do you think Toei should be given some slack or have they got what they deserve.

[KBABZ]

The filler stuff was unavoidable really because they had to figure out a way to stall their telling of the story so Toriyama could write ahead of them. Long-winded battles are a part of that and happen to be an easy and effective way of doing it. In 2017 (or heck, even in 1996) it's now quite frivolous, but to slam them for filler when they were literally six weeks away from overtaking the manga is to be incredibly ignorant of the situation at the time.

[Dbzfan94]

With how they were treating One Piece for a while and handled Super early on, absolutely not.

[MaskedRider]

Yes and no but boy I am tired of seeing the name at this point. It feels like a boogeyman people use to scapegoat out of arguments instead of wanting to discuss whats at hand. Pulling that Ginyu stunt on Tagoma was unnecessary and makes me heated on how much dumb of a decision it was to bring up and I could imagine how that episode's discussion thread would have looked like but its stuff like that where they need to be hammered down like a nail but in the long run I am satisfied with the product despite its shortcomings.

[ABED]

It's their business model seemingly to have series run year round. It's not my preference and leads to a lot of terrible pacing, but at the end of the day I can't get too mad at them.

However, I am interested in Japan's TV practices and how they differ from American TV practices.

[sintzu]

Overall I think they've been very mixed. They did a great job with DB but messed up Z with too much filler. One Piece started out great but based on what I've hear it went down the hill later. Super has some GREAT moments but overall has been a bit of a mess.

I don't agree with people who just hate on everything Toei does cause they've done great work in the past but they've messed up a lot lately so people hating on them for that are justified.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

First, fans need to actually focus on the staff not the company. The whole Toei company isn't involved with Dragon Ball. The fact that people keep lazily referring to everything as Toei is fucking ridiculous. The anime staff is a much accurate and better term to refer to the staff if fans can't be bothered to look for the specific people. Hell, some of them currently working on Dragon Ball Super aren't even Toei employees. They are freelancers.

Second, besides Dragon Ball Kai and the shitty mindset behind it which by the way was a production committee decision and not a sole Toei producer's decision, they've treated the series as best as they can. The effort was and still is always there, again Dragon Ball Kai aside. Whether the end result was satisfying will vary from fan to fan. I am not a fan of their current approach although a lot of its problems is cause of Toriyama. But, there's some good staff working on it and they deserve appreciation for their good work. Back in the days issues were still present, but the vision of the director was pretty solid and I'd say he and his team did a good job for the time it was made in. It was still a mediocre product compared to some other series of that time, but it was much better executed than what we're getting now.

Third, Toei is not just One Piece and Dragon Ball. I wish people realized that. They are way way way more than just those two series. Some of the best magical girl series came from their staff and boy they absolutely kill it most of the time. A look at their PreCure work should tell that. It is by far their best franchise. If you a go little deeper, there's Mononoke, Kuuchuu Buranko and Kyousougiga that feature some of the best direction and concept ever seen in TV anime. But, wait how can Toei do that? Simple. It is not Toei who did that, it is the people who made those projects. That is why focusing on the staff is more important than the company. Then there's the first two Digimon movies, some of the One Piece movies, Doremi, Sailor Moon in the 90s and many more I'm forgetting.

Toei is absolutely not the low tier trash uninformed fans think they are. They have bad projects without question, but then no one in the industry has a 100% success record, yes not even Memehouse. What is 100% though is that some of the in-house Toei staff are still some of the most talented people working in the industry. Back in the 80s-90s and even now.

Back to Dragon Ball, the modern era has been bad mostly cause of poor planning and poor management decisions. Add to that, an unpopular designer who's been the face of the franchise for forever and it all but fucks up the project on a fundamental level. So, yes the producer at Toei deserve some blame for it but so does Fuji TV and Yomiko Advertising for producing and making key decisions regarding Dragon Ball Super. Bandai as well, if you include the movies. And, Toriyama for writing vague and crappy outlines.

Will Dragon Ball going to another studio solve the problem? Maybe. Maybe not. It must be said that only a handful of studios can sustain long running series without falling apart and Madhouse right now if you're aware of their situation is clearly in no position to take such a task.

[Ripper 30]

First, fans need to actually focus on the staff not the company. The whole Toei company isn't involved with Dragon Ball. The fact that people keep lazily referring to everything as Toei is fucking ridiculous. The anime staff is a much accurate and better term to refer to the staff if fans can't be bothered to look for the specific people. Hell, some of them currently working on Dragon Ball Super aren't even Toei employees. They are freelancers.

Second, besides Dragon Ball Kai and the shitty mindset behind it which by the way was a production committee decision and not a sole Toei producer's decision, they've treated the series as best as they can. The effort was and still is always there, again Dragon Ball Kai aside. Whether the end result was satisfying will vary from fan to fan. I am not a fan of their current approach although a lot of its problems is cause of Toriyama. But, there's some good staff working on it and they deserve appreciation for their good work. Back in the days issues were still present, but the vision of the director was pretty solid and I'd say he and his team did a good job for the time it was made in. It was still a mediocre product compared to some other series of that time, but it was much better executed than what we're getting now.

Third, Toei is not just One Piece and Dragon Ball. I wish people realized that. They are way way way more than just those two series. Some of the best magical girl series came from their staff and boy they absolutely kill it most of the time. A look at their PreCure work should tell that. It is by far their best franchise. If you a go little deeper, there's Mononoke, Kuuchuu Buranko and Kyousougiga that feature some of the best direction and concept ever seen in TV anime. But, wait how can Toei do that? Simple. It is not Toei who did that, it is the people who made those projects. That is why focusing on the staff is more important than the company. Then there's the first two Digimon movies, some of the One Piece movies, Doremi, Sailor Moon in the 90s and many more I'm forgetting.

Toei is absolutely not the low tier trash uninformed fans think they are. They have bad projects without question, but then no one in the industry has a 100% success record, yes not even Memehouse. What is 100% though is that some of the in-house Toei staff are still some of the most talented people working in the industry. Back in the 80s-90s and even now.

Back to Dragon Ball, the modern era has been bad mostly cause of poor planning and poor management decisions. Add to that, an unpopular designer who's been the face of the franchise for forever and it all but fucks up the project on a fundamental level. So, yes the producer at Toei deserve some blame for it but so does Fuji TV and Yomiko Advertising for producing and making key decisions regarding Dragon Ball Super. Bandai as well, if you include the movies. And, Toriyama for writing vague and crappy outlines.

Will Dragon Ball going to another studio solve the problem? Maybe. Maybe not. It must be said that only a handful of studios can sustain long running series without falling apart and Madhouse right now if you're aware of their situation is clearly in no position to take such a task.

Tadayoshi Yamamuro needs to step down like seriously.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

I used to think like that, but that might not be a solution. The producers could ask the new designer to replicate Yamamuro's designs and we'll still get more or less the same thing even without Yamamuro.

My intention wasn't to bash Yamamuro. Sorry, if my post came off like that. I was just pointing out the realities of the production and its issues that affect current Dragon Ball.

[Ripper 30]

I used to think like that, but that might not be a solution. The producers could ask the new designer to replicate Yamamuro's designs and we'll still get more or less the same thing even without Yamamuro.

My intention wasn't to bash Yamamuro. Sorry, if my post came off like that. I was just pointing out the realities of the production and its issues that affect current Dragon Ball.

Even if he is directing the show then I just want him to give way to new talents and not correct them because he isn't updated with the new anime standards as he seems to not follow current animes as his designs in 2008 JSAT was way better but now it's really fake looking.

[Colonel Silver]

Absolutely not. Flanderization of beloved characters, shit art, shit animation, terrible story progression, dropped balls everywhere RIP Black Goku arc and I hate fucking power level debate and all that trite but the scale is busted and, well, its all because of Toei.

Edit: Worst of all, fights for the most part have been really meh. They've been improving but its still soulless. One of the main draws of the show are the battles. People are willing to shut off their brains for cool shit but a lot of the fights are really uninspired and just lacking in something to really grab onto and remember. You know your mind starts wandering when you can't find a single good reason to watch this show. I'm sorry if this seems more like venting, I'm not the most intellectual verbose person unfortunately.

All of DBS reeks of cutting corners to save money. Like, they're thinking why waste our time and money writing up meaningful and interesting dialogue between Gohan and Piccolo when our man, Big Green, can just die for him for the millionth time and tug at some heartstrings for real cheap. Why have someone write up fight choreography for Tenshinhan the man who can do everything Roshi can do and more, but better when we can ride off the coattails of his Shin Kikoho 4eva.

tl;dr: Toei is fucking cheap and they have turned DB into a soulless money making machine. They deserve all of the hate. #melodrama #crudebabbyrage

[Desassina]

Yes, the fandom is, namely due to its picking nature. Filler this, canon that, forgetting that Dragon Ball had a complete anime run in the past, some of the best studios animating it, and a soundtrack that people treat like it was chosen by Toriyama. I don't know whom the credit is due now, with Dragon Ball Super being a studio original, but it's less the author's vision than a name to exploit. However, it's run by a team and treated like a product, so I expect it to do better in the advent of AT having little influence. It's in the writers, producers and artists hands now, so let go of him.

[TheGodfather93]

With how they were treating One Piece for a while and handled Super early on, absolutely not.

I stopped following the One Piece anime a few years ago due to the horrible pacing, and from what I've heard it hasn't gotten any better. Add to that subpar art and lazy animation that's worse than when the anime first aired, back in 1999. Because of these issues, many non-Japanese people have dropped the series entirely because they aren't willing to read the manga, which is infinitely better than the anime. Taking this into consideration, one could make the argument that the One Piece anime is ruining the series as a whole for its international audience.

One of the reasons I don't crap all over the Super anime like so many others is because it's nowhere near as bad as the One Piece anime. Super has many problems, don't get me wrong, but it's more down to poor storytelling, plot holes, and a preference for flashy fanservice over substance instead of animation quality. As the YouTuber MozillaVulpix put it, the Super anime is a giant toy commercial.

[8000 Saiyan]

Honestly, yeah.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Depends in what context. For the actual animating of DB sure maybe people expect too much and have been exposed to better handled series and so suddenly they think this is how Toei should have done DB queue all the "madhouse should animate DB" comments you see.

But when it comes to other stuff like distribution, marketing etc then absolutely not, they deservedly get ragged on. When a new DB series in this day and age took 1.5 years to get a simulcast you can't really fathom it, especially when Toei have handed C&D to fansubbers so it's not like they were sitting in an ignorant bubble thinking Japanese people are only watching DBS. This notion of "Japan experiencing it first" doesn't matter anymore, not only are simulcasts a thing but simuldubs now too, freaking Bones sent FUNi 6 episodes of MHA 10 weeks before it aired for them to dub!! Yet Toei refused to even get a f**cking simulcast going!!!
Another example is this whole stupidity about TV deals like we're still in the late 90's and early 2000's, because of that the likes of the UK have gotten screwed out of having any success with DBS.
This could go on but I think you get the point.

[MediaFanGirl93]

In my opinion, Toei deserves the criticism for flanderizing a lot of characters, especially in Super. It pissed me off how they removed the character development of some characters and had them reverted back to their old ways. They gave some characters traits that made them unlikable. So I do think a lot of the criticism is well deserved.

[DragonBallKing]

In my opinion, Toei deserves the criticism for flanderizing a lot of characters, especially in Super. It pissed me off how they removed the character development of some characters and had them reverted back to their old ways. They gave some characters traits that made them unlikable. So I do think a lot of the criticism is well deserved.

What exactly is unlikable?

[MediaFanGirl93]

In my opinion, Toei deserves the criticism for flanderizing a lot of characters, especially in Super. It pissed me off how they removed the character development of some characters and had them reverted back to their old ways. They gave some characters traits that made them unlikable. So I do think a lot of the criticism is well deserved.

What exactly is unlikable?

I specifically said I hate how they exaggerate some character traits of certain characters.

[DragonBallKing]

In my opinion, Toei deserves the criticism for flanderizing a lot of characters, especially in Super. It pissed me off how they removed the character development of some characters and had them reverted back to their old ways. They gave some characters traits that made them unlikable. So I do think a lot of the criticism is well deserved.

What exactly is unlikable?

I specifically said I hate how they exaggerate some character traits of certain characters.

If your referring to Goku I believe his Super personality is mainly due to the amount peaceful slice of life episodes in Super. I say mainly because while Goku has been naive he crosses into Luffy stupidity sometimes. If you look at the way he's behaved in the Black arc and in the current arc it's not much different than the Buu arc.

[SaiyanGod117]

Umm no, mostly all the anime they make are of poor quality or integrity they deserve all the hate they get.