Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[CJStriker_CBR]

Freeza stomped Jimez, while Gohan got beaten up like a scrub. I dunno if he's that much stronger or simply more skilled fighter.


The whole Freeza vs Gohan fight, Freeza was holding back right from the first punch, so we can't really use it to pinpoint their strength.


Meanwhile Goku holds back while fighting Ribrianne and doesn't even use Super Saiyan 1. Because of course he doesn't.

At least next week he'll be fighting seriously against Jiren.

Ribrianne has shown she can tank a SSJ with easy, so the holding back of both her and Goku is WAYYYYY out of canon, was not justice for the both of them.

[Bullza]

It was an acted out fight so neither probably did any significant damage whatsoever to either one. That said it does kinda give me the impression that Gohan probably is of that kind level, similar to perhaps Dyspo.

The more interesting thing is that Final Form Frieza is much stronger than Final Form Frost which of course means that Piccolo really wasn't as strong as the Base Saiyans during the Universe 6 Tournament.

It should go something like

Base Goku = Final Form Frieza >> Final Form Frost >> Piccolo

So the question of did Vegeta really need to turn Super Saiyan to beat Frost would seemingly now an answer, no he didn't.

We can't know for sure.

Goku and Vegeta have increased their strength by a considerable amount since the U6 arc while Freeza only increased his Golden form multiplier.

Well Goku and Final Form Frieza were evenly matched before. If Frieza's power has not changed and Frost is no match for him then he also should not be a match for the Base Saiyans.

So Vegeta did not need to transform in order to win. Also Frost was not as strong as he is now.

[Marlowe89]

Freeza one-shots Jimeze when base Gohan can barely keep up with him and Final Form Freeza is confirmed to be stronger than Final Form Frost. I'm satisfied.

Yeah, that bit definitely gave me the impression that Final Form Frieza is considerably stronger than the base Saiyans, so that's also consistent with my current rankings.

I do think Ribrianne's strength is potentially somewhat problematic though. You could viably assume she was holding back against base Goku, but there's no reason that she couldn't -- and wouldn't -- just casually swat him away if she was truly capable of going toe-to-toe with someone around fifty times stronger than him. That was a weird scene no matter how I look at it.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

This episode seemed pretty cut-and-dry:

Saiyan Beyond God Goku fights Ribrianne fairly evenly, if not at a slight disadvantage.

Final Form Freeza is way stronger than base Gohan, Final Form Frost, and Jimmies because of course he is, Final Form Freeza is on-par with Saiyan Beyond God Goku.

Ultimate Gohan is somewhere in-between Final Form Freeza and Golden Freeza, putting him squarely in the lower Godly Ki tiers, alongside 17, Super Saiyan Rage Trunks, Dyspo, and Ribrianne (assuming her butterfly transformation in the next episode actually makes her stronger).

Of course, if you don't believe in Saiyan Beyond God, this episode makes no goddamn sense whatsoever, especially with how impressed the crowd is with Ribrianne's performance against Goku. Seems like this is the one to conclusively prove the form's existence, finally.

[Bullza]

The Saiyan Beyond God thing never existed in Super, certainly not in the way that there were two different Base Goku powers.

All their strength came from training.

I thought people had got over this by now with the reappearance of Super Saiyan God. Even the manga has never implied it to be a thing in 28 chapters.

[ZombieVito]

Well Goku and Final Form Frieza were evenly matched before. If Frieza's power has not changed and Frost is no match for him then he also should not be a match for the Base Saiyans.

So Vegeta did not need to transform in order to win. Also Frost was not as strong as he is now.

But Vegeta transformed. It makes absolutely no sense for him to do it if he didn't need it.

If Final form Frost is also weaker than base Goku and Vegeta then that means his power up from his Assault form was nothing.

This episode just convinces me more and more that Freeza is indeed god level in his Final form and that SbG indeed exists.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The same usual crowd is purporting 2 bases despite having no evidence along with the fact that it isn't stated anywhere. Happens every week. Nothing to see here. No evidence for it before. None now.

The explanation for freeza doing so well against jimeze was that instant transmission is child's play since freeza knew jimeze could use it. Basically freeza knew that jimeze would try to teleport in his blind spots and predicted him.

Gohan didn't do this for some reason which is why freeza ridiculed him by saying that he wasn't as good as he thought for having trouble with a jimeze level opponent.

[Liquir]

Just how powerful is Dragon God Zalama if he is capable killing Gods instantly with thought without even seeing or fighting them? That's a trait the Zeno's poses..could that possibly put him in their league? We need more info on him or even a Reveal, since if we go by the previous creators of the DragonBalls like Kami and Guru who once they died, the Dragonballs disappeared, he should be alive.

[JigSaw910]

Gohan may not have been knocked out, but he clearly was totally dominated in the fight. He did not scratch Golden Freeza with that blow and fell with a kick.

This shows that it is not Goku SSB level, is far from it

one of the writers on twitter already confirmed 17 and gohan are god level in strength. i thought this debate was over with

[BlueBasilisk]

Just how powerful is Dragon God Zalama if he is capable killing Gods instantly with thought without even seeing or fighting them? That's a trait the Zeno's poses..could that possibly put him in their league? We need more info on him or even a Reveal, since if we go by the previous creators of the DragonBalls like Kami and Guru who once they died, the Dragonballs disappeared, he should be alive.

Well, Super Shenron was said to be able to grant any wish.

[Bullza]

But Vegeta transformed. It makes absolutely no sense for him to do it if he didn't need it.

If Final form Frost is also weaker than base Goku and Vegeta then that means his power up from his Assault form was nothing.

This episode just convinces me more and more that Freeza is indeed god level in his Final form and that SbG indeed exists.

Well yes but it was always sort of debated on whether Vegeta needed to transform or did so for overkill and to teach him a lesson.

The latter would seem perhaps more likely now.

The other possibility is that Final Form Frieza was just a lot stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta in the Resurrection F saga which a few things might point to.

[Cursemark505]

Dude, watch the episode. Gohan NEVER forced Goku to use the Kaioken, he just asked his father to use all his power and that's exactly what he did.

In this fight, Gohan did no damage to Freeza, nor did he scratch it.
Freeza was restraining himself against killing Gohan and totally dominated him.

The Saiyajin was defeated

All of that is purely headcanon. YOU rewatch the episode. Gohan was able to hurt SSB Goku and he used Kaioken without Gohan telling him to. Gohan even said he would use his full power on SSB Goku, implying he was holding back before. The narrator also confirmed that Gohan was on SSB Goku's level.
In this very episode Gohan was able to land hits on GOLDEN FREEZA. While weakened. If Gohan was nowhere near SSB he could not have done what he did.

Was he able to hurt Goku SSB? When did you see it? When was this shown? Do not make up lies

'' Gohan has achieved a power that rivals that of Goku. '' Yes, with the Goku SSJ2.

Why, conveniently, does that mean that Gohan rivals Blue? it means absolutely nothing.
Gohan asked Goku to use ALL OF HIS POWER, this includes the Kaioken. Goku has never been '' forced to use ''.

And Freeza clearly had to restrain himself from killing Gohan on this EP. Your superiority is indisputable

When the narrator stated that Gohan's power rivaled Goku's, they were showing a clip of Gohan fighting ssjb.

Gohan also clearly stated that he was playing along with Freeza's plan so idk what you're talking about.

Why are you desperately denying that Gohan is in the God realm despite the narrator's comment, despite Gohan clearly fending off ssjb, and despite Gohan managing to fend off Golden Freeza even while not fighting his hardest because he was going along with the plan? Didn't Toshio also say that Gohan's power rivaled 17, someone who is also in the God realm? There's more evidence for than against.

[ZombieVito]

OK. Saw the episode again and indeed the whole fight was just for show.

Still, Frost was fighting and holding his own with SSJ Vegeta this past episode but Freeza defeated him like nothing. That shouldn't be possible if SbG doesn't exists. Base Goku fighting evenly with Ribrianne shouldn't be possible without it as well and before anyone says it, she doesn't have a single reason to hold back now.

[Cursemark505]

OK. Saw the episode again and indeed the whole fight was just for show.

Still, Frost was fighting and holding his own with SSJ Vegeta this past episode but Freeza defeated him like nothing. That shouldn't be possible if SbG doesn't exists. Base Goku fighting evenly with Ribrianne shouldn't be possible without it as well and before anymore says it, she doesn't have a single reason to hold back now.

Frost was not holding his own against Ssj Vegeta. They clashed for like, two seconds before Vegeta punched him back.

Ribrianne is not being serious. We've seen her casually fight ssj Vegeta and fight on par with 17.

[ZombieVito]

Frost was not holding his own against Ssj Vegeta. They clashed for like, two seconds before Vegeta punched him back.

Ribrianne is not being serious. We've seen her casually fight ssj Vegeta and fight on par with 17.

And that punch did nothing. Frost then proceeded to fight evenly with SSJ Vegeta for the second time.

Makes no sense. Why on earth would she not fight at the very least at the same level as she fought 17? Base Goku should have been sent flying away instantly if she could do it.

[JazzMazz]

All of that is purely headcanon. YOU rewatch the episode. Gohan was able to hurt SSB Goku and he used Kaioken without Gohan telling him to. Gohan even said he would use his full power on SSB Goku, implying he was holding back before. The narrator also confirmed that Gohan was on SSB Goku's level.
In this very episode Gohan was able to land hits on GOLDEN FREEZA. While weakened. If Gohan was nowhere near SSB he could not have done what he did.

Was he able to hurt Goku SSB? When did you see it? When was this shown? Do not make up lies

'' Gohan has achieved a power that rivals that of Goku. '' Yes, with the Goku SSJ2.

Why, conveniently, does that mean that Gohan rivals Blue? it means absolutely nothing.
Gohan asked Goku to use ALL OF HIS POWER, this includes the Kaioken. Goku has never been '' forced to use ''.

And Freeza clearly had to restrain himself from killing Gohan on this EP. Your superiority is indisputable

When the narrator stated that Gohan's power rivaled Goku's, they were showing a clip of Gohan fighting ssjb.

Gohan also clearly stated that he was playing along with Freeza's plan so idk what you're talking about.

Why are you desperately denying that Gohan is in the God realm despite the narrator's comment, despite Gohan clearly fending off ssjb, and despite Gohan managing to fend off Golden Freeza even while not fighting his hardest because he was going along with the plan? Didn't Toshio also say that Gohan's power rivaled 17, someone who is also in the God realm? There's more evidence for than against.

Is everyone just going to ignore that Goku in any of his Super Saiyan levels is comparable to SSG?
Because that makes the whole Android 17 and Gohan thing make way more sense.

People have a hard time accepting it because it's bullshit that Gohan could obtain power comparable to god characters through a single day of training.

[Liquir]

Just how powerful is Dragon God Zalama if he is capable killing Gods instantly with thought without even seeing or fighting them? That's a trait the Zeno's poses..could that possibly put him in their league? We need more info on him or even a Reveal, since if we go by the previous creators of the DragonBalls like Kami and Guru who once they died, the Dragonballs disappeared, he should be alive.

Well, Super Shenron was said to be able to grant any wish.

So, Omnipotent,omniscient being. If it is confirmed that he's omnipresent as well, that would make him be above Zeno, since Zeno is neither omnipresent nor omniscient being. To me it would make sense, since the show is called Dragonball so the Dragon God and Dragonballs creator could be the "True God" of DB verse.

[CJStriker_CBR]

Frost was not holding his own against Ssj Vegeta. They clashed for like, two seconds before Vegeta punched him back.

Ribrianne is not being serious. We've seen her casually fight ssj Vegeta and fight on par with 17.

And that punch did nothing. Frost then proceeded to fight evenly with SSJ Vegeta for the second time.

Makes no sense. Why on earth would she not fight at the very least at the same level as she fought 17? Base Goku should have been sent flying away instantly if she could do it.

Cause Toei likes to screw around with these fights and prolong them unnecessary even though their is evidence to the fact that both Goku and Ribrianne have MUCH higher power levels then this. It is a form of weird I don't get, if it was a stalemate at a higher level then I get it, but this base level fighting just makes no sense for both.

FURTHER NOW, we See in the NEP that Goku is in Base for when staring down Jiren............Really Toei come on, they have this love affair with Base Goku that is getting silly now.

[Bullza]

I just went back and had a look at the Resurrection F saga and the narrator says

"In order to surpass, the powered up Frieza, Goku transforms into a form that exceeded the Super Saiyan God"

Which would make it seem that Base Goku was not as strong as Final Form Frieza if he needed to transform first in order to pass him.

When the two fought they did seem evenly matched but they were supposed to be testing each other according to Frieza and not using their full power (which could be referring to Blue and Gold) but after Goku transforms, Frieza still decides to attack him anyway which would be kind of odd if he felt he was even with him before.

So it could be that Final Form Frieza was much stronger than the Base Goku and Vegeta back then. That might be why he seems stronger than Base Gohan who is supposedly about as strong as Base Goku. That would make it the opposite of how it was portrayed in the movie but it's still a possibility.

For all we know going by the Napapa fights with Frieza and Super Saiyan Caulifla then Final Form Frieza could be above Super Saiyan level. That could possibly fit with Final Form Frost being a slight match for Super Saiyan Vegeta yet being no match for Final Form Frieza.

It wouldn't mean there was any retcon but that Frieza was actually stronger than believed.

[JazzMazz]

I just went back and had a look at the Resurrection F saga and the narrator says

"In order to surpass, the powered up Frieza, Goku transforms into a form that exceeded the Super Saiyan God"

Which would make it seem that Base Goku was not as strong as Final Form Frieza if he needed to transform first in order to pass him.

When the two fought they did seem evenly matched but they were supposed to be testing each other according to Frieza and not using their full power (which could be referring to Blue and Gold) but after Goku transforms, Frieza still decides to attack him anyway which would be kind of odd if he felt he was even with him before.

So it could be that Final Form Frieza was much stronger than the Base Goku and Vegeta back then. That might be why he seems stronger than Base Gohan who is supposedly about as strong as Base Goku. That would make it the opposite of how it was portrayed in the movie but it's still a possibility.

For all we know going by the Napapa fights with Frieza and Super Saiyan Caulifla then Final Form Frieza could be above Super Saiyan level. That could possibly fit with Final Form Frost being a slight match for Super Saiyan Vegeta yet being no match for Final Form Frieza.

It wouldn't mean there was any retcon but that Frieza was actually stronger than believed.

I agree with you, Freeza's attack as FF against Super Saiyan Blue Goku was a test to see if he needed to transform, which suggests that he wasn't using his full-power in that form before then.