Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

It's one of those things we will never know for sure.

Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo (which it seems most people try to ignore or overlook now) so you'd think Base Goku should be far stronger than Frieza. Base Future Trunks was also implied to be stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks too.

So you could probably argue that Beerus was lying it was reading his power wrong but there's nothing to say he was at all.

[wolflonnie]

Or rather, Beerus overestimated Frieza, based on his potential... or something like this.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Or rather, Beerus overestimated Frieza, based on his potential... or something like this.

Freeza always was used as a benchmark to gauge people throughout the series. He basically became the series' measuring stick, given that he personified everything that makes discussions on these threads so frustrating at times: REALLY HIGH POWER LEVELS.

He's always the one used to compare how strong someone is. If someone unexpected surpasses Freeza, WOW, that guy's strong!

And now that Freeza has attained godly power with his Golden Evolution, he's once again become a measuring stick, albeit unintentionally this time.

[wolflonnie]

Or rather, Beerus overestimated Frieza, based on his potential... or something like this.

Freeza always was used as a benchmark to gauge people throughout the series. He basically became the series' measuring stick, given that he personified everything that makes discussions on these threads so frustrating at times: REALLY HIGH POWER LEVELS.

He's always the one used to compare how strong someone is. If someone unexpected surpasses Freeza, WOW, that guy's strong!

And now that Freeza has attained godly power with his Golden Evolution, he's once again become a measuring stick, albeit unintentionally this time.

That's why I feel like Beerus was taking into account Frieza's potential, rather than his power at the time.
In the manga, Beerus is actually shocked of hearing of Frieza's defeat, yet he gives no fucks when facing opponents like Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, even Piccolo, etc. That is strange.
Of course this is due to Toriyama (and Toyotaro)'s respect towards Frieza's character... but in-universe, Namek!Frieza had become an ant.
The only logical explanation is that Beerus was shocked that someone with Frieza's potential was defeated. Of course... this is stretching things a bit, but then again, why is he unfazed when seeing warriors leagues about Frieza?

[LowRyder2005]

It's one of those things we will never know for sure.

Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo (which it seems most people try to ignore or overlook now) so you'd think Base Goku should be far stronger than Frieza. Base Future Trunks was also implied to be stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks too.

So you could probably argue that Beerus was lying it was reading his power wrong but there's nothing to say he was at all.

I'll just concentrate on this, since it has been addressed literally dozens of times in this very thread already; no idea why the same questions pop periodically, especially considering you've obviously read everything here. Nobody is ignoring or overlooking anything. The fact of the matter is that there's honestly more compelling evidence to claim the base Saiyans were stronger than the Piccolo in the Buu arc compared to arguing that base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo in ROF; strictly speaking, I'd say there's the same amount of evidence to claim base Goku was stronger than SSB Vegeta against Hit and then Vegeta caught up with him.

The only thing remotely close is characters stating base Gohan was the most troublesome of the bunch, and it has happened multiple times in the series that people could somehow deduce someone was stronger than they were let on; even characters who had to rely on scouters. Gohan takes a Senzu and fights a Tagoma-Ginyu who's clearly pulling his punches (since base Gohan is "puny"), while a non-Senzu'ed Piccolo even before he lands the first Hit on Tagoma.

What actually happened is that people saw base Gohan putting a show against Tagoma and they ingrained that info in a series that a lot later not only disproved that notion [base Gohan (ROF) < base Gohan (Cell Game) < Piccolo], but that also presented countless other times when characters were sandbagging; something that a lot of people factored in less when ROF was being aired, so yeah, they saw Gohan resisting one second more vs. Tagoma and concluded he was probably stronger. Now, if this happened in the tournament even without the Senzu (which already invalidates any comparison) without the weights and without the body change, people would say Tagoma was sandbagging.
And regardless, what kind of scaling would you end up with, otherwise?

Piccolo (rested): 0.75
Base Gohan (rested): 1
Base Gohan (trained): 2
Piccolo (rested, six months later): 220 (!)
SS2 Gohan: 200

Assuming Beerus' words are true, does it mean that a Gohan who always tends not to train surpassed Goku and Vegeta in-between BOG and ROF? Should we think Piccolo regressed and then became 2000% times stronger? Even the theory of Gohan being "Super Saiyan Ultimate" has been debunked, since his Super Saiyan was always the same. And Trunks already states that the Gohan he sees is weaker than the Gohan he remembered from the last time he saw him, meaning the post-Cell Game.
Isn't...

Base Gohan (rested): 1
Base Gohan (Cell Game): 2
Piccolo (tired and weighted): 10
Tagoma: 20
Piccolo (weighted): 40
Tagoma-Ginyu: 30
Gohan SS: 50
Piccolo: 80
SS2 Gohan (post-training): 120
SS2 Gohan (Cell Game): 200
Ultimate Gohan (ROF): 800 (can't output; but characters catch on)

... or something like this in general just a bit more grounded in reality, without unnecessary complications, etc.?

And this is from someone who doesn't even give that much weight to Beerus' words. Plus you'd need to factor in that the Super Saiyan Gohan who has been trounced by Freeza has more or less the level of a healthy Super Saiyan Trunks, who is weaker than Piccolo.
I'm for the idea the kids just regressed somewhat, however.

Base Trunks (ROF): 0.24
Base Gohan (ROF; rested): 1
Base Gohan (Cell Game): 2
SS Gohan (ROF; damaged): 10
Piccolo (tired and weighted): 10
SS Trunks: 12
Tagoma: 20
Piccolo (weighted): 30
Tagoma-Ginyu: 30
SS Gohan: 50
Piccolo (weighted): 60
Piccolo: 90
SS2 Gohan: 100
SS2 Gohan (Cell Game): 200

EDIT: And to reiterate, a lot of people went on with Gohan > Piccolo simply because, again, they thought Gohan had some of his Ultimate power left (which could as well be, we don't know) and that he was stacking Super Saiyan and Ultimate. Now the SS + Ultimate is practically dead, for good reasons, but still some cling on the idea the regular base Gohan was above Piccolo all along.

That's why I feel like Beerus was taking into account Frieza's potential, rather than his power at the time.
In the manga, Beerus is actually shocked of hearing of Frieza's defeat, yet he gives no fucks when facing opponents like Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, even Piccolo, etc. That is strange.
Of course this is due to Toriyama (and Toyotaro)'s respect towards Frieza's character... but in-universe, Namek!Frieza had become an ant.
The only logical explanation is that Beerus was shocked that someone with Frieza's potential was defeated. Of course... this is stretching things a bit, but then again, why is he unfazed when seeing warriors leagues about Frieza?

In-universe it can work really feasibly, but out-of-universe I'd apply some extra methodological doubt to this kind of rationale. At the time the idea Freeza was a prodigy might simply have not been conceived at all, and I'm not even sure the whole dialogue came straight from Toriyama. So, if you're looking at authorial intent it could get quite iffy.

[dbgtFO]

It's a consequence of Toriyama's relegation of the Cell and Buu events to almost non-acknowledgement except the barebones stuff, that has to be there and promotion of Freeza in everything modern Dragon Ball, that makes it seem like that.
Because we can't have focus being taken away from Freeza, because that would make him seem lesser, than what is intended.
Somehow Freeza is a foe worthy of mention, yet the guy who almost single handedly killed off all the Kaioshin and thus Beerus as well, is swept under the rug, because reasons.
It's why I don't think it's prudent to assume that characters have kept their established strength from Z, unless actually made a point of.
RoF base Gohan being stronger than Piccolo? Sure, but it means nothing in regards to their placings in Z.
Shit, go in blind, when watching RoF and no one would ever think Piccolo and Gohan used to be much stronger than Freeza, nor that Gohan is "supposed" to be weaker than Piccolo, unless a Super Saiyan. Piccolo has no better showings, than being on par with a guy, who was said to rival some past guys called Zarbon and Dodoria.

[Bullza]

they saw Gohan resisting one second more vs. Tagoma and concluded he was probably stronger.

It wasn't just that. According to Herms, Tagoma (and this was before Ginyu took over and powered him up further) was supposed to be on par with Gohan in a healthy state.

That same Tagoma beat the stuffing out of Piccolo which should mean that Base Gohan would as well. Though Piccolo did have the weighted clothing on during those fights.

Then of course later when Piccolo didn't have the weights on he was fighting evenly with Base Gohan when they were training.

There's also Piccolo's comment when Base Gohan fought Beerus and he was shocked that Gohan could lose so easily and that was after he and the others had already been stomped. Buu also.

[LowRyder2005]

It's a consequence of Toriyama's relegation of the Cell and Buu events to almost non-acknowledgement except the barebones stuff, that has to be there and promotion of Freeza in everything modern Dragon Ball, that makes it seem like that.
Because we can't have focus being taken away from Freeza, because that would make him seem lesser, than what is intended.
Somehow Freeza is a foe worthy of mention, yet the guy who almost single handedly killed off all the Kaioshin and thus Beerus as well, is swept under the rug, because reasons.
It's why I don't think it's prudent to assume that characters have kept their established strength from Z, unless actually made a point of.
RoF base Gohan being stronger than Piccolo? Sure, but it means nothing in regards to their placings in Z.
Shit, go in blind, when watching RoF and no one would ever think Piccolo and Gohan used to be much stronger than Freeza, nor that Gohan is "supposed" to be weaker than Piccolo, unless a Super Saiyan. Piccolo has no better showings, than being on par with a guy, who was said to rival some past guys called Zarbon and Dodoria.

This also looks sensible, to me. If you want to go with what the movie specifically tells you, let's not forget Freeza thought he'd reach 1,300,000 in some months. Not 13 billions. So we'd be lead to think he was either horribly wrong when the movie lets it slide, or that he'd reach some millions and everyone at the end of the fight (most incriminatingly, a more or less healthy Gohan) were below that.

It wasn't just that. According to Herms, Tagoma (and this was before Ginyu took over and powered him up further) was supposed to be on par with Gohan in a healthy state.

That same Tagoma beat the stuffing out of Piccolo which should mean that Base Gohan would as well. Though Piccolo did have the weighted clothing on during those fights.

Then of course later when Piccolo didn't have the weights on he was fighting evenly with Base Gohan when they were training.

There's also Piccolo's comment when Base Gohan fought Beerus and he was shocked that Gohan could lose so easily and that was after he and the others had already been stomped. Buu also.

I've recently rewatched the fight and some Herms' interview in a main topic. Herms had forgotten Gohan had taken a Senzu seconds before he said those things, so Tagoma shouldn't be equal to a "healthy current base Gohan" like everyone - me included - believed.

The statement of course doesn't make sense in itself, because Tagoma is crushed by the current Super Saiyan Gohan, who's inferior to his Cell Game self. So either Tagoma had way, way more power in store (then again, he looks pretty afraid of SS Gohan, so it's dubious) and he would've crushed the rusty SS Gohan, Gohan's statement was not as precise as intended, or Gohan was just plain wrong. Truth be told, Gohan says "he's probably hiding power comparable to me at my best". It's an educated guess, which could also be intended as Tagoma being in the range of his "top shape" self; when you read it, it really tells you more about Gohan not being in his top shape, as opposed to Tagoma's strength.

Piccolo is still way more powerful than that; he obviously shouldn't get 100 times stronger by training alone in the woods, and Gohan sounds shocked when he finally fights a serious Piccolo in ep. 88, so the most reasonable conclusion at this point is that Piccolo was sandbagging during all of their training and was always at least comparable to Gohan's SS forms. In hindsight, it also makes sense. A Gohan who's weaker than Piccolo asking a slightly stronger Piccolo to train is generally more credible than a Gohan asking a weaker Piccolo to train him just to get his fighting instinct back.

Gohan in BOG is still Ultimate just like he was in the movie; you've already been told this by both me and .Doctor many pages ago. I personally have him regressing even in that form to near Good Buu levels, since he literally gets bitchslapped and one-shotted while Mr. Buu puts up a semblance of a fight and my regular Ultimate Gohan is, well, over 50 times stronger than that.

If I had to go further and assume Gohan's prediction was right, piecing everything I can from the context I'd even say there's quite a chance that Gohan had regressed about as strong as Namek Goku or some early Android Arc Super Saiyan; Tagoma being about as strong as a regular base Gohan back to when he was into training. Something like this:

[spoiler]- ROF -
Base Gohan: 5,000,000
Piccolo (exhausted and weighted): 40,000,000
Base Gohan "at the top of his game" (Cell Game? Post-Z Sword? Well, something): 100,000,000
Tagoma: 55,000,000
Tagoma-Ginyu: 90,000,000
SS Gohan: 200 millions
Piccolo (rested): 3,000,000,000
Good Buu: 12,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan: 15,000,000,000

- Ep. 88 -
Base Gohan (post-training): 24,000,000
SS2 Gohan: 2,400,000,000
Piccolo: 3,000,000,000 (I don't see him getting something out of this training with Gohan at all)[/spoiler]

[Bullza]

The healthy Gohan who ate the Senzu Bean fought Tagoma after Ginyu had taken over his body and brought out his full power.

The comment about Tagoma being on par with a healthy Base Gohan was aimed at just Tagoma when he was still Tagoma. In the preview for Episode 22 Gohan mentions being Tagoma being on par with him and then says that his power is increasing which was when Ginyu took over.

So the order they were getting at is

Ginyu-Tagoma > Tagoma = Gohan > Piccolo

And there's no way that Gohan was in his Ultimate form when he fought Beerus. He was in the movie but not in the series. He looked nothing like Ultimate Gohan.

[LowRyder2005]

The healthy Gohan who ate the Senzu Bean fought Tagoma after Ginyu had taken over his body and brought out his full power.

The comment about Tagoma being on par with a healthy Base Gohan was aimed at just Tagoma when he was still Tagoma. In the preview for Episode 22 Gohan mentions being Tagoma being on par with him and then says that his power is increasing which was when Ginyu took over.

So the order they were getting at is

Ginyu-Tagoma > Tagoma = Gohan > Piccolo

And there's no way that Gohan was in his Ultimate form when he fought Beerus. He was in the movie but not in the series. He looked nothing like Ultimate Gohan.

Gohan is saying Tagoma might be "hiding" power "probably" equal to his own, so he's obviously guessing his full strength and thinking the current Tagoma is not showing it. Since he doesn't ever go "I was totally wrong" I think there's little reason to believe Ginyu-Tagoma became massively stronger (as in, he got over ten times stronger). And on what basis do you claim Gohan wasn't Ultimate? He thinks he can go Ultimate in ROF, for starters. Plus, why would he attack Beerus in base after he sees he's demolishing Buu, assuming he thinks he could go Ultimate all the same?

He was Ultimate in the movie, BOG in Super was written with the movie in mind and there's no reason to believe this changed by default.
Gohan was shown with the bang afterwards and he was in base; the bang basically becomes a cue for the viewer (and more importantly, the viewer only, in-universe, Gohan's bang appears 100% randomly depending on the wind or Gohan's hairstyle) only after Gohan re-unlocks Ultimate. No idea why you're so hellbent with proving Gohan wasn't Ultimate in BOG, to be honest. I could understand having a different opinion about that Gohan's strenght in general, at most, but claiming there's no way Gohan was Ultimate in BOG is pretty much an overstatement.

[Hugo Boss]

Gohan is saying Tagoma might be "hiding" power "probably" equal to his own, so he's obviously guessing his full strength and thinking the current Tagoma is not showing it. Since he doesn't ever go "I was totally wrong" I think there's little reason to believe Ginyu-Tagoma became massively stronger (as in, he got over ten times stronger).

Perhaps Gohan was factoring his base form power as high as it should be if he didn’t neglect his training. Given that Vegeta eliminated Tagoma with quite an ease, it might be possible that Gohan regressed very much.

[LowRyder2005]

Gohan is saying Tagoma might be "hiding" power "probably" equal to his own, so he's obviously guessing his full strength and thinking the current Tagoma is not showing it. Since he doesn't ever go "I was totally wrong" I think there's little reason to believe Ginyu-Tagoma became massively stronger (as in, he got over ten times stronger).

Perhaps Gohan was factoring his base form power as high as it should be if he didn’t neglect his training. Given that Vegeta eliminated Tagoma with quite an ease, it might be possible that Gohan regressed very much.

Yup, that's what I believe as well. It could make sense since Gohan is in base when he makes the statement and his rusty Super Saiyan can take out Tagoma no problem already; hence his "top form Ultimate" or even his "top form Super Saiyan" would take out Tagoma with no difficulty at all. I mean, it definitely looks at least like the simplest conclusion at this point if we want to assume he's not completely off the mark. We can't really quantify how much Gohan regressed in strength -- although putting him back to Android Arc levels looks strangely fitting (at least to me, personally speaking) by now, between the fact he can barely go Super Saiyan, Trunks' assessment of Gohan's normal strength and maybe even with how Ultimate Gohan's strength is portrayed later, someone that with a day of meditation and whatnot can at least land a clean hit on the God tiers.

[DBZ Macky]

Maybe Tagoma really is just Base Saiyan tier, and Piccolo is just that weak with his weights on? I mean, Piccolo seems to have an significant advantage over Gohan the next time they fight (in the Champa Arc). We know that Piccolo's arms at the very least are fragile enough to be injured by Base Saiyan tier characters, as evidenced when he gets his arms blown off by Hermilla in the Tournament of Power.

It all makes sense if we just believe that Piccolo was nerfed, just like he was in RoF when he had his ass handed to him by Shisami. In fact, Piccolo's power fluctuates a lot with him being able to defeat SS2 Gohan yet not being able to damage Base Goku at all with a charged attack.

I think DBS's power scale is pretty clear if we assume that Piccolo (occasionally) and Goten/Trunks have just been horribly, horribly nerfed:
Base Goku > Base Vegeta > Base Gohan (ToP) > Base Future Trunks > Non-Golden Freeza > Tagoma > Base Gohan (RoF) > Piccolo (RoF) > Krillin > SS3 Gotenks > SS Kid Trunks

[LowRyder2005]

Maybe Tagoma really is just Base Saiyan tier, and Piccolo is just that weak with his weights on? I mean, Piccolo seems to have an significant advantage over Gohan the next time they fight (in the Champa Arc). We know that Piccolo's arms at the very least are fragile enough to be injured by Base Saiyan tier characters, as evidenced when he gets his arms blown off by Hermilla in the Tournament of Power.

It all makes sense if we just believe that Piccolo was nerfed, just like he was in RoF when he had his ass handed to him by Shisami. In fact, Piccolo's power fluctuates a lot with him being able to defeat SS2 Gohan yet not being able to damage Base Goku at all with a charged attack.

I think DBS's power scale is pretty clear if we assume that Piccolo (occasionally) and Goten/Trunks have just been horribly, horribly nerfed:
Base Goku > Base Vegeta > Base Gohan (ToP) > Base Future Trunks > Non-Golden Freeza > Tagoma > Base Gohan (RoF) > Piccolo (RoF) > Krillin > SS3 Gotenks > SS Kid Trunks

I think the scale could be fine, but I'd make Kid Trunks a little bit stronger; post-ROF his Super Saiyan's strength is still enough for Goku to trace the Earth from Whis' location (in the same way a tired and damaged SS Gohan had previously enabled him to). He should still be weaker than Piccolo as Vegeta says that the kids aren't strong enough "without relying on Fusion" to get a place in their team, base Future Trunks, and by extension base Goku and base Vegeta. This also tells you that Gotenks would have snatched either Piccolo's or Good Buu's position in the team, depending on whoever is the weaker one at that point according to you -- for the record, this also happens before Vegeta sees Piccolo and Gohan in the same episode in case you think it may change something.

So the hierarchy still looks pretty confusing to me without Saiyan Beyond God(s) and stuff, mostly for the placement of Gotenks -- if not only for the placement of Gotenks. I have:

SS2 or possibly SS1 Goku > Mr. Buu > Final Form Freeza > Frost * > Piccolo (in general) ~ SS2 Gohan (post-retraining) > SS Gohan (post-retraining) > Base Goku ~ Base Vegeta ~ #18 > Base Trunks > Base Gohan (Cell Game) >= SS Gohan (ROF) > Tagoma ~ SS Kid Trunks >= SS Gohan at the end of Freeza's fight.

* Assuming Toshio's idea doesn't get directly disproved.

Honestly, since it's literally the only thing concretely standing in the way (that and the fact Goku and Vegeta can finally sense God ki) I'd be tempted to headcanon the entire fight away with Copy-Vegeta using "SS2 Vegeta's strength" or something without transforming into a Super Saiyan, and then sandbagging against base Goku (then again, I rest assured that if Copy Vegeta vs. Gotenks happened right now in the tournament everyone would board on the sandbag train); I honestly doubt it was the intended subtext, though, since I seriously believe that at that point at least some writers believed the strength of base Goku and base Vegeta was not that far off Super Saiyan God. Outlier or not, it just isn't/wasn't clear how strong they wanted they base form to be, but as of late you only have stuff going against the gravitas they held in ROF.

There's also the matter of Final Form Freeza's strength; he's clearly far above base Gohan, but also base Caulifla. In fact he only had extremely strong showings against everyone in the tournament, steamrolling anyone and anything in his path. What's really needed at this point would be a confirmation on his ability/inability to beat Super Saiyan Gohan, or even better SS1/2 Goku. I'm still unsure if I should put him above, below or comparable to Ultimate Gohan (or not) in general, but I'd either have him in the infamous "Saiyan Beyond God tier" or always between base and SS Goku.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Tagoma and Shisami have always been hard for me to assess.

In ep 22, Gohan says this: "He's probably as strong as me when I was at my best."

We know he definitely isn't referring to Ultimate, but that's when he was at his best. Before Piccolo attacked Tagoma, he unleashed his power, so I'm not sure if the weights made much of a difference or not. I'll just say Gohan is referring to his Base power because a more powerful Ginyu Tagoma getting thrashed by Super Saiyan makes it so Gohan's statement wouldn't be too literal.

Shisami's one I just can't peg at all. Everyone gets all quiet and look at him like they're scared, then we see Gohan get all of his Chi-blasts slapped away like it was nothing. He had yet to unleash his power, so I suppose we can't say whether Shisami was stronger or equal to Gohan. Gohan's aura began to flare up before Tagoma blasted through them, leading me to assume Gohan would've broke out of the bearhug. Sorbet's sudden acknowledgement of Tagoma surpassing the Ginyu Force makes it seem as if Shisami was still behind them, though.

I'm going to just go with the idea of Sorbet regarding Shisami as the strongest of Freeza's men without ever checking his power level I got nothing else.

[Hugo Boss]

Sorbet's sudden acknowledgement of Tagoma surpassing the Ginyu Force makes it seem as if Shisami was still behind them, though.

I'm going to just go with the idea of Sorbet regarding Shisami as the strongest of Freeza's men without ever checking his power level I got nothing else.

Well, Ginyu didn’t step in to steal a body until he saw Tagoma, so Shisami could be not that impressive in his opinion too.

[lord turbo]

I simply loathe the "hey, I'm gonna correct you" back 'n forth that are factually "hey, let's confront our ideas on the subject even if we disagree" in disguise.

Fair enough.

I'd say it depends. Black may also feel cornered because he's fighting someone stronger than him, and his Super Saiyan - being the strongest form - is his last possibility to turn the tables. It's nothing more than "Black is being forced to use his 100%" to me.
And, hey, I'm still not sure I understand where Goku falls in all of this according to you. Your idea is that he's less than 1% of Vegeta's power under equal forms but Blue. His SS3 is near-equal to SS2 Trunks, base Black is above it according to you and base Vegeta is above him.

You get where I'm coming from, I'm saying black only turns SSJ as suggested in the manga when he feels cornered. He didn't become SSJ until after he felt transformed Vegeta's assault to judge his level compared to his own, combined with Trunks notion that he's hasn't used that form in a long time so he must be feeling pressured by his dead suggest he hasn't used it against Trunks himself recently. The last part is more or less what I'm thinking as far as the Future Trunks saga in the manga.

While I can understand the logic simply because the manga at least does make it look like base Black is a big shot at least in the prologue, I still disagree because it's in-universe implications are extreme and the out-of-universe look frankly absurd. This contention rests entirely on whether base Black can beat a fresh SS2 Trunks and a SS3 Goku, and everything looks pretty fishy to me. It'd take me a bunch of clear statements or more comparisons to discard the idea Black is simply above Trunks under equal forms, if the opposing argument the idea Goku and Vegeta made a many-hundred fold leap (with Vegeta also becoming *100 times stronger than Goku) afterwards. I could concede that it's easier to make such a case in the manga according to the way the story is presented, but I prefer to go with the "heavily implied" subtext that Goku and Vegeta are always progressing toe-to-toe.

That's cool, not everyone will agree to the same thing, it does seems extreme, but then again even in the original manga you had Goku above the kids in the same equal forms by a factor of 8x or more, not a hundred gap sure, but still ridiculously huge gap. I did like to think Goku and Vegeta progress toe to toe, but if we are assuming Black's SSJ 1 or 2 state is way above SSJ3 Goku = SSJ2 Trunks and SSJ 1 or 2 state Vegeta fought Black that was stated far stronger than before that would already make Vegeta's SSJ 1 or 2 state several-times above Goku's own in equal forms so it doesn't seem to far out there, nor would it really be an issue narrative-wise.

I don't really have a problem with this. Not even sure if it looked like it, in fact.

Cool beans.

The translation I had read somewhat differently (I'm sure yours if the official one, of course). It doesn't change the fact that Black is not simply a mind in a Saiyan body; something that is supposedly... no idea, mixing his genetic material with the host, a hybrid of the sort. The talk is strangely scientific. So yeah, if he had some tiny multipliers I wouldn't mind and it wouldn't exactly feel completely gratuitous. I think I'm pretty open to possibilities, frankly, it's the gaps you have in mind that strike me as something that's lacking in the common sense department. Again, I simply believe that if Toyotaro wanted us to believe Vegeta was a hundred times stronger than Goku he'd obviously have it made clear(er).

oh, I get what you're saying, but I don't believe Black's soul I mixing genetically with Goku's body, just that his godly soul clashes or mixes with the godly ki of saiyan god which causes his SSJB to come out rose instead of blue while on the other forms are the same as normal and causes no difference in appearance or feel. To be fair Toriyama has never really been clear about ridiculously large gaps, he tends to just make large leaps regardless if they seem logical or not such as the aforementioned SSJ2 Vegeta being several time stronger than Goku's SSJ2 form despite appearing equal in previous sagas before the Future trunks saga.

I'm not going for a literal argument, here. As for that matter, I'm also trying to keep it simple: lest your argument is that he would've needed to say "he lost over 95%/96%/97%" or something, I'd remind you that there's no value over 90% that's a round number.

Nah, I was thinking something closer to single digit numbers between 1-9%, I doubt it would be phrased 91-97% since Toriyama doesn't really do numbers like that aren't rounded, but single digits like Kkx3, 4, 5 and etc are fine. The deal with Freeza's over 1 million suggests something over 1 million, but under 2 million other-wise he would have been more specific, like when ever a character mentions I'm not even using half power its less than half, but over 1/3rd, you get where I'm coming from?

I'm not claiming you should take it literally as much as you should use some contextual reading instead of dismissing the entry: the Daizenshuu is telling you Goten possesses power as fabulous as Gohan's, meaning that his power is at least very high by the standards of the Buu arc. I don't know how strong, or weak, you have Goten, but it sounds kind of extreme to me to keep him as low as Goku on Namek.
Regarding Buu, it depends on how Fusion works and what kind of gaps you have at that point. If you think Goku is a dead weight compared to Gohan's power, like I do, their Fusion might not end up too far from Buutenks himself.

As per Gotenks, I'm also considering that. I have Gotenks multiplying the power of the weakest fusee per some tens of times.

I tend to only dismiss entries from the Daizenshuu if they contradict the manga, the Daizenshuu typically makes straight-forward statements like the above Goten comment. Its basically saying he's as strong as Gohan and makes no specific distinction in forms so its being general in comparing their power levels. Same thing happened with the Daizenshuu mentioning that Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta and the others until after his training in the time chamber which has issues as that's suggesting SSJ Gotenks was inferior to SSJ2 Majin Vegeta when the dialogue suggests he's actually superior.

As for how strong I see Goten/Trunks in comparison to Goku, bare minimum several-times weaker than him to possibly several tens of times weaker. Metamoran fusion seems to at bare minimum make base Gotenks over 100x base Goten or Trunks as Gotenks in his base form survived a fight with Fat Buu while Fat Buu “killed” everyone else (Majin Vegeta, Dabura, Gohan, and Kaioshin) that faced him so his base form should at bare minimum be around Majin Vegeta if not higher, this would support Daizenshuu and other guides claim of a fused metamoran individual being many tens of times stronger than said individual.

Now, for simplicity sake lets say South Kaioshin rivals Kid Buu, since Buu's absorptions are stated to be additive that would make Buff Buu near twice Kid Buu's level, Buff Buu is stated stronger than base Super Buu = SSJ3 Gotenks so that makes SSJ3 somewhere above half SSJ3 Gotenks = Super Buu's level.

This would make SSJ3 Goku half SSJ3 Gotenks meaning he should be half base Gotenks in his base form which would at bare minimum make base Goku 50x or near 50x stronger than the base kids making his base form close in power to their SSJ forms (Which are stronger than 18 and potentially Piccolo). As for Gotenks Buu's claim, using what I said above I would put Ultimate Gohan no more than twice SSJ3 Goku's level and Gotenks Buu less than 4x SSJ3 Goku's level and less than 2x Ultimate Gohan's level. Unless the fusion between Goku and Gohan is a outright miserable failure they should surpass a gap between 2-4x their own level as a fused being.

You mean they'd stomp Freeza in Super Saiyan form? Since their Super Saiyan is obviously above that (probably above #18, given that she resorts to use the Kienzan to disqualify them instead of ringing them out) he should be referring to a fight in base form with the kids falling around final form Freeza. They can train without transforming, so I don't see the problem.

For the animated special? Hmmm...I suppose its possible though that would imply the kids got weaker over time since their base forms could compete with 18 during the 25th Budokai as Mighty Mask as confirmed by the Daizenshuu

I don't have the scene in mind but I'm fairly sure it was probably just a surprise blow: SS Trunks can do the same to Fat Buu in the Buu arc, Piccolo can do it to Freeza, etc.
I think you missed the part when Ginyu literally states Gohan's power is puny, basically taunting him during all of their brief fight. But anyway, I had also forgotten the Gohan who fights Tagoma not only doesn't manage to do anything worthwhile also took a Senzu; so yeah, even less reason to believe he amounts to much in ROF. This also wouldn't even necessarily mean his SS is superior to a fully rested Piccolo. Honestly, given that everything fits with the later arcs and solves pretty much every headscratchers, from Piccolo's selection in U6 vs. U7 looking more reasonable (instead of a "Gohan doesn't fight = Gohan won't fight for us"), Piccolo being equal or above to a partly-retrained SS2 Gohan, and Trunks' remarks on Gohan's power.

Its the scene when Piccolo first attacks Tagoma and starts getting beat on with Gohan jumping breaking the fight and blasting Tagoma away, its just before SSJ Gotenks headbutts his nuts. Ginyu asked Gohan to show him how much he's grown only to get disappointed he's challenging him with that level of power. His comments is just pointing out how inferior Gohan is to his power, not that he's holding back or pulling his punches (He has no reason too at this point. Base Gohan takes a beating against full power Ginyu much better than full power Piccolo getting picked apart easily in the first blow against a weaker relaxed Tagoma.

To be fair, we have the statement that out of everyone present Gohan looks to be the strongest fighter (This could be from simply observing how everyone faced Freeza's army in particular), keep in mind Tagoma/Ginyu have zero clue Gohan can become SSJ so their opinion would be on his base form and nonthing else. Barring that, I think Base Gohan and Piccolo are roughly even as neither one show anything above the other and they all (the humans included) get their asses beat about the same against Tagoma/Ginyu when going all out). Base Gohan and unweighted clothing Piccolo are shown equal and giving the same serious all-out exertion in their sparring session so there doesn't appear to be anything to suggest Piccolo is above base Gohan until some time later just before the ToP.

As for Piccolo's selection in the U6 tournament, last time we saw any comparison was base Goku = final form Freeza > first form Freeza > SSJ Gohan > Piccolo. Gohan and Piccolo are still shown to be in the same tier around the U6 tournament so base Goku should still be far stronger than Piccolo. As for Gohan, after his training he's seemingly shown on par with Goku in equal forms so his Gohan's base form should still be stronger than Piccolo. I don't mind characters getting hundreds of times stronger (Kuririn even suggested this to Gohan) after small periods of training.

Think about it, if you consider SSJ2 Gohan and Piccolo more or less around Cell Games tier then you should be fine with base Goku testing a stronger and faster fit Skinny Mr. Buu that should be several times stronger than that level only for Gohan post training to have his base form seemingly match Goku's base form (The same one that canceled out Piccolo's strongest and longest charged ki blast with his bare hands) which would put Gohan's new improve base stronger than his former SSJ2 form. Further more, if you have no problem with characters being able to deduce hidden/dormant power then you're find with Dabura's line that suggest Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan's dormant base power > Kuririn and Piccolo (Its mentioned by Dabura they can't use Kibito or Kaioshin's energy). I say base because whatever Dabura sensed was lower than what base Vegeta displayed against Pui Pui and he was unaware of the suppressed power of SSJ so he was feeling only their dormant power for their base in reference to Kuririn and Piccolo's dormant power.

This would mean Cell Games base Gohan > Piccolo.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I have an interesting hypothetical, folks.

Remember, JUST A HYPOTHETICAL.

So, one of the most egregious power-scaling wrinkles was Copy-Vegeta, a complete equal in power to Vegeta, utterly trashing SS3 Gotenks, and base Goku being equal to him. They went SSB immediately after scuffling in base a bit, so this lent fire to the "Two-Base Theory" explanation once the Future Trunks Saga came around.

However, what if they had turned SS instead? If they had turned regular gold-haired SS after being proven to be superior to SS3 Gotenks in base form, what do you guys think the implications would be for the power-scaling afterwards? No changes? Turncoats from the "Retconned to be Weaker" folks? Utter pandemonium? Cries of not making sense? This being the shining silver bullet that finally clarifies things? I just want your thoughts.

[Animelover5487]

I have an interesting hypothetical, folks.

Remember, JUST A HYPOTHETICAL.

So, one of the most egregious power-scaling wrinkles was Copy-Vegeta, a complete equal in power to Vegeta, utterly trashing SS3 Gotenks, and base Goku being equal to him. They went SSB immediately after scuffling in base a bit, so this lent fire to the "Two-Base Theory" explanation once the Future Trunks Saga came around.

However, what if they had turned SS instead? If they had turned regular gold-haired SS after being proven to be superior to SS3 Gotenks in base form, what do you guys think the implications would be for the power-scaling afterwards? No changes? Turncoats from the "Retconned to be Weaker" folks? Utter pandemonium? Cries of not making sense? This being the shining silver bullet that finally clarifies things? I just want your thoughts.

That means Final Form Freeza > Frost is a plothole. As Frost was shown not to be too much weaker than SS Vegeta.

[brett wheeler]

I have an interesting hypothetical, folks.

Remember, JUST A HYPOTHETICAL.

So, one of the most egregious power-scaling wrinkles was Copy-Vegeta, a complete equal in power to Vegeta, utterly trashing SS3 Gotenks, and base Goku being equal to him. They went SSB immediately after scuffling in base a bit, so this lent fire to the "Two-Base Theory" explanation once the Future Trunks Saga came around.

However, what if they had turned SS instead? If they had turned regular gold-haired SS after being proven to be superior to SS3 Gotenks in base form, what do you guys think the implications would be for the power-scaling afterwards? No changes? Turncoats from the "Retconned to be Weaker" folks? Utter pandemonium? Cries of not making sense? This being the shining silver bullet that finally clarifies things? I just want your thoughts.

That means Final Form Freeza > Frost is a plothole. As Frost was shown not to be too much weaker than SS Vegeta.

Well that makes me question something as well, why,do we assume frieza fourth form is the same as it was in rof goku and vegeta have gotten monstrously stronger since then and 4th form frieza still seems comfortable around them in there base forms, so what if his training in hell increased his 4th forms power as much as his golden he this would make sense to why he is confident to take them on in 4th form still untill they turn blue,this would also make sense as the base saiyans at least vegeta wanted to take frost on in base untill megetta jumped in, also this would make sense in the fact that it was never said how much stronger frieza was just if they fought frieza would win and frost wouldn't stand a chance this probably means frost is at least be 2× weaker at the least, ok after all the gains frost was stated to make for vegeta to feel fine confronting him in base untill it was 2 on one and frieza also stated to be fine handling him in fourth form imo I see it as base saiyans and frieza final form are still around the same level, also adding in the fact that gohan was said to be really drained and frieza said frost was sure to win now and then ( even if it was fake ) for gohan to at least hold his own for a second against final form frieza while being really exhausted, this says a lot since we already know base gohan healthy can at least hold his own for a while against base goku ( I don't think he is on par with base goku and vegeta due to the fact he was sure Piccolo's blast would at least budge goku and it didn't I assume it could at least do something to him also I assume gohan thought that because he was the one who came up with the strategy specifically for taking out his dad even if it was sparring ) its hard for me to see base goku being as weak as people are assuming even with the bad writing I'm sorry I just don't see it ( ps I also don't see base goku and vegeta being ssg lvl )