The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[dragon boss z]

When the kids transformed into SSJ in Kami's lookout in front of Goku and Piccolo, Goku was not impressed at all, while Piccolo was there in amazement about their power, and that's before they do any kind of special training to defeat Buu. That certainly means that the kids are not that far from Piccolo's strenght. Goku not being impressed is because of him being much stronger than Piccolo, therefore he would obviously not be amazed by Goten and Trunks' power.

You are connecting things and coming up with things that may not be the real cause. Correlation doesn't equal causation. You are over looking things like that is just Goku's personality, he is more laid back, he already sensed their power in the tournament so why would he react to their power again, ect.

Trunks' being unable to move because of the gravity doesn't mean anything. That would mean that Trunks is around Goku's strenght from the Ginyu arc (90,000). That is impossible, because that would mean he has to be weaker than Krillin, who should be way higher than 75,000 by this time, but the base kids are stated to be stronger than any of the earthlings during the Buu arc.

Actually imo Krillin could easily be fare below 75,000. His last confirmed power level was "over 10,000", which was stated to be 13,000 in the daizenshuu. The 75,000 came from another magazine that had a typo in it and I wouldn't take it as fact. Base Trunks and Goten could easily, and should be tbh around the level of 75,000. And after there time chamber training I think they are around 500,000.

And about Android 18's fight, if the kids were indeed weaker than her, then why 18 decided to end the fight with splitting Mighty Mask in half as last resource?

Who says it was a last resort? That was the first thing she did to just end the fight. 18 doesn't really like to fight, she just wanted to win, so why risk Goten and Trunks destroying stuff just to fight them?

It doesn't make sense, she would have decided to fight Goten and Trunks still if she was stronger than them.

Why?

And the fact that SSJ Trunks was suppressed, nearly nothing of his power being used, when throwing that ki blast, and it still scared Android 18, it implies that the kids are way stronger than you think.

She seemed scared, not shocked imo. And like I said, at the time their power is being hyped up. Stop narrowly looking at it as it was presented at the time. Take all the info we know from the specials and Super, and they outway the couple scenes that could imply they are stronger than her. Vegeta out right said Goten and Trunks are too weak to enter the tournament without fusion, but they ask Piccolo to join, and he isn't much stronger than he was in the Buu saga.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is evidence on both sides of the argument, I'm going with I think what the current authors would have happen, not what Toriyama might of decided to do 20 years ago.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

She had no trouble at all with them and thought they were just strong regular humans until they went ssj. And their suppressed blast shocked her, not scared her. There is no indication she was scared for her personal safety.

She had to dodge it and was outright sweating and saying "I couldn't belive they were that strong", with the "that" bolded on the manga. Only for comparison, she tanked Vegeta's blast on the Android Arc and considered him a total joke. Damn, she had to use a Kienzan to beat them.

Neither Gohan was extremely rusty, and Vegeta was tired and didn't expect Trunks to be that strong, and neither were serious.

He should still be more skilled than a 7 years old kid who never trained on his life. Gohan was able to do well against Dabura, it's not like he completely forgot how to fight. And rusty or not a MSSJ Tier should not have any trouble with someone weaker than Freeza. This Gohan is able to one shot SSJG2 Vegeta, who can one shot 16, who can one shot 17, who can one shot Android Arc SSJs who can one shot Freeza.
I agree Vegeta was tired, but he did expect it. Trunks was standing right next to him, Vegeta can sense him pretty well and gauge his power. There is also Vegeta's reflexe punch: If Vegeta was much stronger than Trunks it'd have killed him.

That makes no sense at all. Frieza isn't weak, and for two kids under 10 to be near his strength with next to no training is already crazy. Piccolo was banking on their latent potential, not their current power. Frieza was able to reach god tier in 4 months of training, so if two kids with basically no training as well trained like that, they should also get similar gains. So it was more of a, look how strong they are now, so they will be crazy strong with training plus fussion, and not, wow they are already stronger than almost everyone by themselves already, as more current info implies. I will agree at first it seemed like they could be above Frieza or 18, but not it doesn't seem that way.

Freeza stopped being revelant to power scaling the moment Trunks killed him.
I agree at Piccolo refering to their potentials, though. But do they have Freeza-like potencial? Borning strong isn't a signal of potential, Gohan with 4 was weaker than a just-borned Goku. It was a urgence to make the kids stronger, Buu could wipe out earth at any time and the kids, even with a Gohan-like potential, would need years to catch Buu if they were weaker than Freeza.

Actually imo Krillin could easily be fare below 75,000. His last confirmed power level was "over 10,000", which was stated to be 13,000 in the daizenshuu. The 75,000 came from another magazine that had a typo in it and I wouldn't take it as fact. Base Trunks and Goten could easily, and should be tbh around the level of 75,000. And after there time chamber training I think they are around 500,000.

I know you are answering DB0900 here, but i feel i should response this one.
Kuririn was able to manage something against 23k Ginyu-Goku and was considered useful against Freeza by Vegeta, who though the >60k Goku wouldn't be helpful. He's also stronger than the Tenshinhan who did for 9 months the same training that buffed Piccolo from below Nappa to above 50% 1st form Freeza in a week.

[dragon boss z]

She had to dodge it and was outright sweating and saying "I couldn't belive they were that strong", with the "that" bolded on the manga. Only for comparison, she tanked Vegeta's blast on the Android Arc and considered him a total joke.

She dodged because it was her instinct. Frieza dodged attacks from weaker opponents all of the time, it doesn't mean he couldn't of tanked them.

Damn, she had to use a Kienzan to beat them.

It is never stated she needed the kienzan, and in the anime both ssj Goten and Trunks ganged up on her and she still held them off. She just did that to reveal them. It was also to be funny because the audience thought he was cut in half.

He should still be more skilled than a 7 years old kid who never trained on his life. Gohan was able to do well against Dabura, it's not like he completely forgot how to fight. And rusty or not a MSSJ Tier should not have any trouble with someone weaker than Freeza. This Gohan is able to one shot SSJG2 Vegeta, who can one shot 16, who can one shot 17, who can one shot Android Arc SSJs who can one shot Freeza.

Weather or not Gohan was ssj2 fighting Dabura comes in to play here. If Dabura was only regular perfect Cell level, and if Gohan fought him at ssj2, then his ssj form may of only been android tier.

There is also Vegeta's reflexe punch: If Vegeta was much stronger than Trunks it'd have killed him.

The same punch from Tagoma/Ginyu that took down Piccolo hit skinny Roshi and it didn't kill Roshi. Kid Buu, who was ssj3 level didn't instantly kill base Vegeta. I think you are looking too far into it. These ssj Goten and Trunks were just being presented as being relevant in power so it didn't come out of nowhere that when they fused they could fight Buu. Without fusion they stood absolutely no chance against Buu, while ssj2 Vegeta did. Clearly Vegeta is far above their level.

Freeza stopped being revelant to power scaling the moment Trunks killed him.

He was killed while suppressed (stated), while he was off guard (he thought Trunks was dead), and with a weapon. If Frieza was completely serious and not cocky, and if Trunks didn't have a sword, the fight would of been similar to namek Goku vs Frieza, but Trunks would win a bit quicker. If Goku was bloodlusted and had a sword on namek he probably could of done the same thing Trunks did on namek.

I agree at Piccolo refering to their potentials, though. But do they have Freeza-like potencial? Borning strong isn't a signal of potential, Gohan with 4 was weaker than a just-borned Goku. It was a urgence to make the kids stronger, Buu could wipe out earth at any time and the kids, even with a Gohan-like potential, would need years to catch Buu if they were weaker than Freeza.

I don't think their potential was quite Frieza level, but it was above anyone else's except maybe Gohan's, who they thought was dead at the time.

I know you are answering DB0900 here, but i feel i should response this one.
Kuririn was able to manage something against 23k Ginyu-Goku and was considered useful against Freeza by Vegeta, who though the >60k Goku wouldn't be helpful.

Ginyu didn't know any of Goku's techniques and Gohan was also helping. It was mentioned Krillin was getting stronger, so I could see Krillin getting close to 20k as he was already 13k while fighting the Ginyu force. But I highly doubt Krillin was all of a sudden at the level where he could of stomped the entire Ginyu force all at once, which is what a power level of 75,000 would imply.

He's also stronger than the Tenshinhan who did for 9 months the same training that buffed Piccolo from below Nappa to above 50% 1st form Freeza in a week.

Where did you get Piccolo 50% first form Frieza level? He was most likely nowhere near that. He was maybe around Nail level, which is less than 10% of first form Frieza. And tbh there is nothing that really proves Piccolo was stronger than Nail either. Since we don't have any conformation on how strong Piccolo truly was, there is not much we can really debate on about this. All we know is he was no match for first form Frieza without fusing.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

She dodged because it was her instinct. Frieza dodged attacks from weaker opponents all of the time, it doesn't mean he couldn't of tanked them.

She doesn't have this same instinct when Vegeta blasts her, though. She wasn't sweating nor blown away by Vegeta's power either.

It is never stated she needed the kienzan, and in the anime both ssj Goten and Trunks ganged up on her and she still held them off. She just did that to reveal them. It was also to be funny because the audience thought he was cut in half.

Why would she bother reveling them? She just wants to win. It's way better for her to only one shot them than fire an attack that could potentialy kill them.

Weather or not Gohan was ssj2 fighting Dabura comes in to play here. If Dabura was only regular perfect Cell level, and if Gohan fought him at ssj2, then his ssj form may of only been android tier.

Isn't odd for someone on Warm up Cell level be considered a powerhouse 7 years earlier? Anyway, the artwork clearly portrayed Gohan as a SSJ, and even disconsidering that i doubt half of Warm up Cell would be down there with the Android Arc Tier.

The same punch from Tagoma/Ginyu that took down Piccolo hit skinny Roshi and it didn't kill Roshi. Kid Buu, who was ssj3 level didn't instantly kill base Vegeta. I think you are looking too far into it. These ssj Goten and Trunks were just being presented as being relevant in power so it didn't come out of nowhere that when they fused they could fight Buu. Without fusion they stood absolutely no chance against Buu, while ssj2 Vegeta did. Clearly Vegeta is far above their level.

Good point, forgot how one shot was inconsistent. Trunks still gave Vegeta trouble than Zarbon to dodge and block is punches, though. Sure Vegeta wasn't as braced as he was to fight Zarbon, but still pretty impressive.

He was killed while suppressed (stated), while he was off guard (he thought Trunks was dead), and with a weapon. If Frieza was completely serious and not cocky, and if Trunks didn't have a sword, the fight would of been similar to namek Goku vs Frieza, but Trunks would win a bit quicker. If Goku was bloodlusted and had a sword on namek he probably could of done the same thing Trunks did on namek.

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P9.1
Context: challenging Freeza and Cold
Trunks: “Come at me at full power right from the start. I’m not soft like Son Goku…”

Trunks is not the type of guy who understimates his foes, but he's implying here both Cold and Freeza are trash to him. The Daizenshuu recap of the fight also says Freeza was powerless against Trunks:

Freeza had tenaciously been revived and became a demon of vengeance. Through mechanization, he had obtained even more gigantic power, but he is completely powerless before Super Saiyan Trunks. Easily dodging Freeza's sneak attack, Trunks finely chops up Freeza and then finally eradicates the remaining pieces.

And the Trunks vs Cold situation shows us the sword wasn't revelant at all.

I don't think their potential was quite Frieza level, but it was above anyone else's except maybe Gohan's, who they thought was dead at the time.

If their potentials aren't different from Gohan's but they are multifolder weaker than him, there is no way they can go from below 18 to above Buu with such a small time.

Ginyu didn't know any of Goku's techniques and Gohan was also helping. It was mentioned Krillin was getting stronger, so I could see Krillin getting close to 20k as he was already 13k while fighting the Ginyu force. But I highly doubt Krillin was all of a sudden at the level where he could of stomped the entire Ginyu force all at once, which is what a power level of 75,000 would imply.

Kuririn and Gohan manhandled him on a head to head fight, it has nothing to do with Ginyu not knowing Goku's techniques. Kuririn was still considered useful and Vegeta did mention power as a factor. Do you think Ginyu, for example, would be of help against Freeza? The 75k from V-Jump actually is the bare minimum he can be IMO.

Where did you get Piccolo 50% first form Frieza level? He was most likely nowhere near that. He was maybe around Nail level, which is less than 10% of first form Frieza. And tbh there is nothing that really proves Piccolo was stronger than Nail either. Since we don't have any conformation on how strong Piccolo truly was, there is not much we can really debate on about this. All we know is he was no match for first form Frieza without fusing.

Nail thinks Kamiccolo would be able to beat Freeza:

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”
Nail: “If you think so, you can just go get killed by Freeza…”

And Guru stated Katatz's kid dimished his power by half by dividing in two, so a reunion would give a 2x power increase:

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

[dragon boss z]

She doesn't have this same instinct when Vegeta blasts her, though. She wasn't sweating nor blown away by Vegeta's power either.

Because she expected him to be that strong.

Why would she bother reveling them? She just wants to win. It's way better for her to only one shot them than fire an attack that could potentialy kill them.

For some reason it seems like it couldn't of really killed them, because there is no way she would risk that even if she thought she was going to lose. Why risk something like that over some money? One of the kids is son of the richest woman in the world so even if it was for money it doesn't make sense. It's just how Toriyama chose to reveal them, most likely because he thought it would be a funny way to do it.

Isn't odd for someone on Warm up Cell level be considered a powerhouse 7 years earlier? Anyway, the artwork clearly portrayed Gohan as a SSJ,

Isn't it also odd for Krillin to push Goku to ssj even though base copy Vegeta stomped ssj3 Gotenks? Isn't it also odd that Frost was dodging and blocking attacks from Roshi? Up until right before that Goten was training with Chi chi and in the anime he had to go ssj to beat her. It's dragonball, it's inconsistent.

and even disconsidering that i doubt half of Warm up Cell would be down there with the Android Arc Tier.

The guide does say ssj2 is a 2x multiplier, but the manga kind of contradicts this since Gohan was at half power when he beat Cell, though that may be a Gohan exclusive anger boost.

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P9.1
Context: challenging Freeza and Cold
Trunks: “Come at me at full power right from the start. I’m not soft like Son Goku…”

Trunks is not the type of guy who understimates his foes, but he's implying here both Cold and Freeza are trash to him. The Daizenshuu recap of the fight also says Freeza was powerless against Trunks:

Freeza had tenaciously been revived and became a demon of vengeance. Through mechanization, he had obtained even more gigantic power, but he is completely powerless before Super Saiyan Trunks. Easily dodging Freeza's sneak attack, Trunks finely chops up Freeza and then finally eradicates the remaining pieces.

And the Trunks vs Cold situation shows us the sword wasn't revelant at all.[/quote]

You think Frieza would listen to Trunks? It took him getting his but handed to him over and over again, and he even resorted to attacking the planet before going full power on Namek. Not to mention it takes him a while to power up and he gets buff. There was no indication of anypower up.
But yes, Trunks could of beat him at full power, and without his sword, it would of just taken a bit more time. And as for King Cold, his power was compared to suppressed Frieza, and he might not of even been in his final form. So we can't say much about him.

If their potentials aren't different from Gohan's but they are multifolder weaker than him, there is no way they can go from below 18 to above Buu with such a small time.

I disagree. They were already probably around or above Gohan's level before entering the ROSAT, so if they both entered for 2 days (2 years) they would of both came out much stronger than Cell games Gohan.

Kuririn and Gohan manhandled him on a head to head fight, it has nothing to do with Ginyu not knowing Goku's techniques. Kuririn was still considered useful and Vegeta did mention power as a factor. Do you think Ginyu, for example, would be of help against Freeza? The 75k from V-Jump actually is the bare minimum he can be IMO.

Krillin was utterly useless against Frieza besides his destructo disc and solar flare. Ginyu would of been more effective against Frieza if anything due to his body change.

Nail thinks Kamiccolo would be able to beat Freeza:

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”
Nail: “If you think so, you can just go get killed by Freeza…”

And Guru stated Katatz's kid dimished his power by half by dividing in two, so a reunion would give a 2x power increase:

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

It seemed to be much more than a 2x boost in the androids saga. I wouldn't take Guuru's words literally. It could be more metaphorical.

[Taingo]

Androids 17 and 18 (Super era, after training for tournament of power) vs Goku Black. Do the androids stand a chance?

[LowRyder2005]

Androids 17 and 18 (Super era, after training for tournament of power) vs Goku Black. Do the androids stand a chance?

Black's strenght fluctuates a lot. I have the #17 who fought Goku above Black up until his power-up from fighting Goku; after that he'd find himself outmatched unless he had lots and lots and lots of power in reserve.

#18 should be virtually identical to the same #18 we always knew, probably between base and Super Saiyan Trunks/ Goten from the Buu arc. Not much of a factor here.

Hitpo (Hit/ Toppo fusion) vs Vegito Blue (ToP)?
Buu (Omega Shenron, Super 17, and Great Ape Bebi) vs PG. Frieza (ToP)? -No absorbing
Silver Frost (ToP) vs Goku (RoF)?
Buuhan vs Copy Vegeta (Base only) vs Maji (blue metal man)?
-no absorbing or replacing.

- Potara or Fusion? Metamoran Fusion loses, Potara wins.
- Eh, very confident that Omega Shenron would solo. In fact, in my numbers Baby-Vegeta would win as a Golden Great Ape even against Golden Freeza. If there's something the majority of Super falls short against is the power creep of GT, as far as I'm concerned, LOL.
- Silver Frost?
- The strength of Copy Vegeta is a big variable. I'm considering the hypothesis the amped base form seen at some points in the series could still be intended to be a half-way point between base and Super Saiyan, though. But anyway, it looks likely that Buuhan would definitely take this. I mean, I have current Gohan appreciably above him but not that much above, even Copy Vegeta doesn't seem realms above SS3 Gotenks -- assuming that Gotenks really had the same strength like originally intended, which in the broader scope of the series looks like a nigh-impossibility today. Regarding Maji=Kaio, I have him somewhat below Fat Buu; he'd beat Copy Vegeta, but lose against Buuhan. I follow the idea Gotenks got simply got a Gohan-like nerf-bat.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Because she expected him to be that strong.

And she didn't expecte his kid to be that strong. She was sweating and completely in awe of a suppressed blast.

For some reason it seems like it couldn't of really killed them, because there is no way she would risk that even if she thought she was going to lose. Why risk something like that over some money? One of the kids is son of the richest woman in the world so even if it was for money it doesn't make sense. It's just how Toriyama chose to reveal them, most likely because he thought it would be a funny way to do it.

How it wasn't risky? She fired a cutting-type attack against them. If she chould beat them head to head she would. I know the scene is supposed to be funny, but we are looking for a in-universe explanation here.

Isn't it also odd for Krillin to push Goku to ssj even though base copy Vegeta stomped ssj3 Gotenks? Isn't it also odd that Frost was dodging and blocking attacks from Roshi? Up until right before that Goten was training with Chi chi and in the anime he had to go ssj to beat her. It's dragonball, it's inconsistent.

What a bunch of weird feats from Super has to do with a statement from the original manga? And if SSJ2 Gohan is Warm up Cell tier and SSJ Gohan is somehow Android Arc tier, where are Piccolo and Kaioshin? Both should be way above anything on the Android Arc.

You think Frieza would listen to Trunks? It took him getting his but handed to him over and over again, and he even resorted to attacking the planet before going full power on Namek. Not to mention it takes him a while to power up and he gets buff. There was no indication of anypower up.
But yes, Trunks could of beat him at full power, and without his sword, it would of just taken a bit more time. And as for King Cold, his power was compared to suppressed Frieza, and he might not of even been in his final form. So we can't say much about him.

It doesn't matter if Freeza would listen or not, Trunks thinks Freeza is fodder to him and that's it. Even if he's not one shot stuff, he should be to the Android Arc SSJs and the Cyborg twins.

I disagree. They were already probably around or above Gohan's level before entering the ROSAT, so if they both entered for 2 days (2 years) they would of both came out much stronger than Cell games Gohan.

Weren't you arguing the kids are on pair with 1st form Freeza? Android Arc Gohan is way above that.

Krillin was utterly useless against Frieza besides his destructo disc and solar flare. Ginyu would of been more effective against Frieza if anything due to his body change.

Not according to Vegeta, who mentioned Kuririn's power as a factor:

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…”

It seemed to be much more than a 2x boost in the androids saga. I wouldn't take Guuru's words literally. It could be more metaphorical.

2x sounds just fine on the Android Arc, maybe even too much. Anyway, the 17-Piccolo gap should be smaller than the Freeza-Piccolo gap, so unless 17 is dozens of times stronger than Piccolo, Piccolo isn't multifolder under Freeza.

[dragon boss z]

And she didn't expecte his kid to be that strong. She was sweating and completely in awe of a suppressed blast.

That is a bit of an exaggeration.

How it wasn't risky? She fired a cutting-type attack against them. If she chould beat them head to head she would. I know the scene is supposed to be funny, but we are looking for a in-universe explanation here.

I'm sure the strength of the attack can be altered, similar to how Krillin's kienzan broke on Cell's neck, her attack probably wouldn't break through their ki shield. It was just meant to cut clothes.

What a bunch of weird feats from Super has to do with a statement from the original manga? And if SSJ2 Gohan is Warm up Cell tier and SSJ Gohan is somehow Android Arc tier, where are Piccolo and Kaioshin? Both should be way above anything on the Android Arc.

This thread isn't a thread on who we think was supposed to be stronger from back then, it's who we think now with current canon and who is supposed to be stronger now. Even BoG Goku was stated to be weaker than Frieza, and tbh base BoG Goku has a pretty good chance of beating ssj kid Goten and Trunks before their ROSAT training.

It doesn't matter if Freeza would listen or not, Trunks thinks Freeza is fodder to him and that's it. Even if he's not one shot stuff, he should be to the Android Arc SSJs and the Cyborg twins.

I disagree, that doesn't mean he is fodder, it just means Trunks new he could win, which I agree he could. The only way Frieza could of won is by blowing up the Earth. In a straight up fight it would of probably gone down similar to Zarbon vs Vegeta round 2. Frieza at full power could keep up similar to how Zarbon was able to keep up with Vegeta, but it would only last for a short time and like Vegeta Trunks would be able to finish off Frieza. It just wouldn't be a one shot. And the androids saga ssj's aren't really that much stronger, since Vegeta seemed to only be a bit stronger than Trunks who was probably just a bit stronger than before, if at all.

Weren't you arguing the kids are on pair with 1st form Freeza? Android Arc Gohan is way above that.

Only with is anger boosts. Gohan without an anger boost would most likely get slaughtered by any form of Frieza.

Krillin was utterly useless against Frieza besides his destructo disc and solar flare. Ginyu would of been more effective against Frieza if anything due to his body change.

Not according to Vegeta, who mentioned Kuririn's power as a factor:

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…”

Vegeta also said he was a ssj and that he could beat Frieza.

2x sounds just fine on the Android Arc, maybe even too much.

The kami boost should be at least equal or stronger than the Nail fussion, which we know for a fact was over a 2x boost unless Piccolo was already as strong as first form Frieza, which we know he wasn't.

Anyway, the 17-Piccolo gap should be smaller than the Freeza-Piccolo gap, so unless 17 is dozens of times stronger than Piccolo, Piccolo isn't multifolder under Freeza.

Imo android saga Piccolo is weaker than Frieza, so I think he would need more than a 2x boost. Though I guess it could be a 2x boost if he was around Frieza's level. I have 17 at around 220-230 mil, so if it's a 2x boost I would have Piccolo around 110-115 mil, which I could see. I just personally think he is more in the 40-80 mil range. I find it hard to believe his gains would be so much bigger than everyone else's in the 3 year gap.

[LowRyder2005]

It's not intuitive at all, but Piccolo should have surpassed Freeza at that point. The manga really does spell it out for you if you pay attention. It's just that it's usually so hard to swallow, muddy and lost between bits of dialogues and shenanigans that most people intuitively think the Androids turned out to be weaker than Freeza.

1. Tien - who is clearly shown sensing Goku's SS power when he transforms alongside Trunks - thinks there's nothing wrong with the Android Arc SS Goku and remarks how otherwordly he is compared to all of them. Gohan and Piccolo are the only one who realize he is not fighting at maximum power (Piccolo goes as far as saying that Goku is "really weak"). This means:

SS Goku (healthy; Android) > SS Goku (sick; Android) >= SS Goku (Mecha Freeza)

2. Sealing the deal, Piccolo says that "whether you turned out to be weaker, or we grew too strong". This is a bit subtle, but bear in mind that Piccolo thinks he would be facing Androids who were above the same SS Trunks who fought Freeza. If the Androids turned out to be *weaker* than Trunks and Freeza, he wouldn't imply there was the possibility they were weaker; he'd say they were outright weaker, period... as in "these guys wouldn't even kill Trunks". "You turned out to be weaker (fact), and maybe we've also grown too strong". With his "weaker" he thinks that instead of being "far above Trunks and everyone else", they turned out to be "moderately above".

There's also Krillin mentioning Piccolo has abnormal strength for someone who isn't a Super Saiyan, although not definitive as the rest.

Piccolo's max estimation of the #19 and #20 who defeated Trunks > SS Vegeta > SS Goku (healthy; Android) > Piccolo > Gero (post-absorption) > Gero (pre-absorption) > #19 (pre-absorption) > SS Trunks > SS Goku (Namek) > Freeza

The only thing we don't know with certainty is, basically, if SS Goku post-Yardrat with no additional training would have won against #19 or Gero. Still the dialogues end up implying #19 and #20 are above Trunks, if only a little, and they're both above the Trunks who kills Freeza, while Piccolo is above all of them. I suppose that to Toriyama training with SS Goku would make miracles.

[SuperDragoon]

drugged basil runs a gaunlet
1.super perfect cell
2.ssj2 teen gohan
3.ssj2 goku
4.majin vegeta
drugged form wont wear off

Going by the Exhibition Tournament he should stop at round 3. Going by the Tournament of Power he clears without the drug.

Vegetto (Buu Arc) vs Trio De Dangers

Vegetto has no time limit.
Trio De Dangers aren't being distracted/coached by Kaioshin Rou.

Going by the Exhibition Tournament Vegetto one shots Basil and Lavenda before being put down by Bergamo. Going by the Tournament of Power any of the Trio stomp Vegetto.

Ganos (transformed) vs... (In no real order)

Tao Pai Pai
Young Piccolo Daimao
Movie 1 Garlic Jr (No immortality)
Raditz
Jium
Roselle
Nappa
Saiyan Saga Vegeta
Dr. Uiro
Pui Pui
Oozaru Saiyan Saga Vegeta
Zarbon
Guldo
Recoome
Captain Ginyu (No body swap)
Freeza's 1st form (Namek Saga)
Piccolo (After fusing with Nail)
Freeza's 3rd form (Namek saga)
Freeza's 4th form (Namek saga)
#19
Dr. Gero
SSj Future Trunks


How far does he go?

Ganos clears. Roshi believed that he could become a threat to Goku and the others during the tournament.

1. I doubt Basil is any stronger in the ToP than he was than during the exhibition match, and if he was it wasn't by much.

2. Ganos was getting trashed by a skinny Roshi. Roshi making a statement about Ganos possibly becoming stronger later on doesn't change anything. Feats>statements, and that statement was only talking about the future. Ganos gets one shot by first form Namek Frieza and would probably lose to any of the ginyu force.[/quote]
1. Basil went from losing to Fat Buu to fighting well against SSJ Goku who is likely more powerful than BOG saga SSG Goku. He got much much stronger, as little sense as it makes.
2. Roshi said in the future, i.e. during the tournament which is less than an hour. Base Ganos was already shown to fight ok against Base Goku. Feats are exactly what put him at minimum everyone in the Freeza saga.

[LowRyder2005]

1. Basil went from losing to Fat Buu to fighting well against SSJ Goku who is likely more powerful than BOG saga SSG Goku. He got much much stronger, as little sense as it makes.

What? Basil is never shown fighting "well" against SS Goku; he can't even k.o. base Goku when three on one, and he's overwhelmed by a SS Goku who's probably not even getting all that serious. There's absolutely no reason to think Basil's strength differed, let alone with an unnaddressed - at bare minimum - 100,000% increase that would elevate him from way below Good Buu to "near Super Saiyan God" like you're claiming.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That is a bit of an exaggeration.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I'm sure the strength of the attack can be altered, similar to how Krillin's kienzan broke on Cell's neck, her attack probably wouldn't break through their ki shield. It was just meant to cut clothes.

That was filler. And if anything the Kienzan broke because Cell was too strong, Kuririn had no reason to hold back his Kienzan. Nothing really implies the Kienzan's strength can be altered.

This thread isn't a thread on who we think was supposed to be stronger from back then, it's who we think now with current canon and who is supposed to be stronger now. Even BoG Goku was stated to be weaker than Frieza, and tbh base BoG Goku has a pretty good chance of beating ssj kid Goten and Trunks before their ROSAT training.

And what Super has to do with Goku's statement?

I disagree, that doesn't mean he is fodder, it just means Trunks new he could win, which I agree he could. The only way Frieza could of won is by blowing up the Earth. In a straight up fight it would of probably gone down similar to Zarbon vs Vegeta round 2. Frieza at full power could keep up similar to how Zarbon was able to keep up with Vegeta, but it would only last for a short time and like Vegeta Trunks would be able to finish off Frieza. It just wouldn't be a one shot. And the androids saga ssj's aren't really that much stronger, since Vegeta seemed to only be a bit stronger than Trunks who was probably just a bit stronger than before, if at all.

This Trunks is a bit weaker than Healthy Goku, who's much stronger than Sick Goku, who's in turn implied to be much stronger than Yardrat Goku. Trunks has improved a lot during his training.

Only with is anger boosts. Gohan without an anger boost would most likely get slaughtered by any form of Frieza.

This doesn't seem to be the case when Vegeta a much weaker Gohan can manage something against 2nd form Freeza:

Chapter: 299 (DBZ 105), P13.1
Context: after Gohan is healed by Dende
Vegeta: “Heh…Just as you’d expect of someone with Saiyan blood, after reviving his battle power has greatly risen…A-alright! Luck is turning our way just a little bit…”

Neither when Goku considers him a good sparring partner:

Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P8.3-5
Context: as Goku and Gohan start training in the Room of Spirit and Time
Gohan: “Dad, am I going to get in the way of your training?”
Goku: “At first, yeah. But once you’re able to become a Super Saiyan, you’ll really come in handy as a training partner, Gohan. That’s my ideal, anyway. Obviously I intend to obtain power surpassing Super Saiyan. I want to be stronger than anyone, after all. But Gohan, I intend for you to even further surpass me.”

Vegeta also said he was a ssj and that he could beat Frieza.

And he was contradicted by Freeza pummeling him. Where is the contradiction of him being considered useful? Gohan also agreed they could manage something after Vegeta faces Freeza:

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…”

The kami boost should be at least equal or stronger than the Nail fussion, which we know for a fact was over a 2x boost unless Piccolo was already as strong as first form Frieza, which we know he wasn't.

Nail stated Kamiccolo may be able to beat 1st form Freeza, while Piccolo merged with Nail was dead even with 2nd form Freeza.

Imo android saga Piccolo is weaker than Frieza, so I think he would need more than a 2x boost. Though I guess it could be a 2x boost if he was around Frieza's level. I have 17 at around 220-230 mil, so if it's a 2x boost I would have Piccolo around 110-115 mil, which I could see. I just personally think he is more in the 40-80 mil range. I find it hard to believe his gains would be so much bigger than everyone else's in the 3 year gap.

@LowRyder2005 has covered this pretty well.

[dragon boss z]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

She looks shocked to me. She could be afraid, but it isn't specified, and she could be afraid for her daughter in the audience.

That was filler. And if anything the Kienzan broke because Cell was too strong, Kuririn had no reason to hold back his Kienzan. Nothing really implies the Kienzan's strength can be altered.

There is no reason why it shouldn't be able to be altered. Ki can be amplified or weakened.

And what Super has to do with Goku's statement?

I'm not sure what you are saying here. The statement was from Super.

This Trunks is a bit weaker than Healthy Goku, who's much stronger than Sick Goku, who's in turn implied to be much stronger than Yardrat Goku. Trunks has improved a lot during his training.

Was it stated Trunks got stronger? If he did I don't think he got that much stronger. And sick Goku was weak, he lost to 19. Imo sick Goku started would of lost to namek Goku. His power dropped really fast.

This doesn't seem to be the case when Vegeta a much weaker Gohan can manage something against 2nd form Freeza:

Chapter: 299 (DBZ 105), P13.1
Context: after Gohan is healed by Dende
Vegeta: “Heh…Just as you’d expect of someone with Saiyan blood, after reviving his battle power has greatly risen…A-alright! Luck is turning our way just a little bit…”

Neither when Goku considers him a good sparring partner:

Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P8.3-5
Context: as Goku and Gohan start training in the Room of Spirit and Time
Gohan: “Dad, am I going to get in the way of your training?”
Goku: “At first, yeah. But once you’re able to become a Super Saiyan, you’ll really come in handy as a training partner, Gohan. That’s my ideal, anyway. Obviously I intend to obtain power surpassing Super Saiyan. I want to be stronger than anyone, after all. But Gohan, I intend for you to even further surpass me.”

Both of those statements are to hype his potential, not state his current power is enough. Also Vegeta saw his anger explosion power. In short bursts Gohan's power could reach over 1,000,000. But his resting power level wasn't even close to that much. Just like he could reach a power level of 1,300 when his resting power level was 1. That's over a 1,000 multiplier.

And he was contradicted by Freeza pummeling him. Where is the contradiction of him being considered useful? Gohan also agreed they could manage something after Vegeta faces Freeza:

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…”

Frieza only transformed because Vegeta asked him to. He could of beat all of them in his first form.

Nail stated Kamiccolo may be able to beat 1st form Freeza, while Piccolo merged with Nail was dead even with 2nd form Freeza.

He said if they fused Piccolo's strength would increase many fold.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[GreatSaiyaman123]

She looks shocked to me. She could be afraid, but it isn't specified, and she could be afraid for her daughter in the audience.

This is after the blast has exploded, so it's unlikely she's afraid of the audience. She still look pretty scared to me, compare with Kuririn/Gohan reaction's to 1st form Freeza and you will see.

There is no reason why it shouldn't be able to be altered. Ki can be amplified or weakened.

It's never implied they can control how sharpy the attack is, though.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. The statement was from Super.

I was talking about Goku's statement about Dabura. Damn, this is getting confusing

Was it stated Trunks got stronger? If he did I don't think he got that much stronger. And sick Goku was weak, he lost to 19. Imo sick Goku started would of lost to namek Goku. His power dropped really fast.

Well, he does go from below Yardrat Goku to grouped with Android Arc Vegeta, so yeah, he's way stronger. Sick Goku lost because he was getting weaker from his decease, while 19 was getting stronger from absorbing him. Considering how Tenshinhan was completely in awe of sick Goku's power despite sensing Yardrat Goku 3 years ago:

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”
Piccolo: “…”

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”

Both of those statements are to hype his potential, not state his current power is enough. Also Vegeta saw his anger explosion power. In short bursts Gohan's power could reach over 1,000,000. But his resting power level wasn't even close to that much. Just like he could reach a power level of 1,300 when his resting power level was 1. That's over a 1,000 multiplier.

The way Vegeta talks seems to be refering to his current power, though. Gohan was also about to fight Freeza without being enraged, what's odd if he's not a match for the same Freeza who crushed his head earlier, let alone Vegeta.

Frieza only transformed because Vegeta asked him to. He could of beat all of them in his first form.

Yeah, perhaps. Freeza did have confidence, but so did Vegeta and Gohan.

He said if they fused Piccolo's strength would increase many fold.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Nail is refering to him and Piccolo merging here.

[dragon boss z]

It's never implied they can control how sharpy the attack is, though.

I'm sure they could alter the sharpness as they can create ki blasts of different shapes, or at least control the toughness of it. I highly doubt a kienzan from saiyan saga Krillin would be as deadly as one form current Krillin.

Well, he does go from below Yardrat Goku to grouped with Android Arc Vegeta, so yeah, he's way stronger. Sick Goku lost because he was getting weaker from his decease, while 19 was getting stronger from absorbing him. Considering how Tenshinhan was completely in awe of sick Goku's power despite sensing Yardrat Goku 3 years ago:

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”
Piccolo: “…”

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”

Tien saying "so this is Goku as a ssj" is him implying the super saiyan power in general. If what you were saying was true he would mention how much stronger it was than before. Basically all this tells us is something we already know, ssj is far above human level. Logically Tien should know Goku's full power since he should logically be able to sense him from across the planet every time he trained with Piccolo.

The way Vegeta talks seems to be refering to his current power, though. Gohan was also about to fight Freeza without being enraged, what's odd if he's not a match for the same Freeza who crushed his head earlier, let alone Vegeta.

Gohan's power is strange since it fluctuates so much, but before he got any anger boosts he was clearly below Frieza and Vegeta.

Nail's refering to him and Piccolo merging here.

I know, but why would the kami fusion be weaker than the Nail fusion?

[dragon boss z]

1. Tien - who is clearly shown sensing Goku's SS power when he transforms alongside Trunks - thinks there's nothing wrong with the Android Arc SS Goku and remarks how otherwordly he is compared to all of them. Gohan and Piccolo are the only one who realize he is not fighting at maximum power (Piccolo goes as far as saying that Goku is "really weak"). This means:

SS Goku (healthy; Android) > SS Goku (sick; Android) >= SS Goku (Mecha Freeza)

Tien said the power of a ssj is amazing, not the power of current Goku's ssj form. Logically he should of sensed Goku's power whenever he trained with Piccolo from wherever he was on the planet.

2. Sealing the deal, Piccolo says that "whether you turned out to be weaker, or we grew too strong". This is a bit subtle, but bear in mind that Piccolo thinks he would be facing Androids who were above the same SS Trunks who fought Freeza. If the Androids turned out to be *weaker* than Trunks and Freeza, he wouldn't imply there was the possibility they were weaker; he'd say they were outright weaker, period... as in "these guys wouldn't even kill Trunks". "You turned out to be weaker (fact), and maybe we've also grown too strong". With his "weaker" he thinks that instead of being "far above Trunks and everyone else", they turned out to be "moderately above".

This kind of sounds bias. Piccolo flat out says he didn't know if they were weaker or if they were to strong. So all the proves is he doesn't know. And Piccolo is well aware the future can change so he could possible think these androids were just weaker, and he would of been right because the future did change and that's why they were weaker.

There's also Krillin mentioning Piccolo has abnormal strength for someone who isn't a Super Saiyan, although not definitive as the rest.

I'm glad you acknowledge this statement isn't definitive, as to Krillin Frieza would also have abnormal strength for someone who isn't ssj.

Piccolo's max estimation of the #19 and #20 who defeated Trunks > SS Vegeta > SS Goku (healthy; Android) > Piccolo > Gero (post-absorption) > Gero (pre-absorption) > #19 (pre-absorption) > SS Trunks > SS Goku (Namek) > Freeza

But Piccolo knows they can absorb energy. So he may of thought they got stronger overtime, hence why they could defeat Trunks, who didn't even reach Namek Goku level until close to when he first went back in time.

The only thing we don't know with certainty is, basically, if SS Goku post-Yardrat with no additional training would have won against #19 or Gero. Still the dialogues end up implying #19 and #20 are above Trunks, if only a little, and they're both above the Trunks who kills Freeza, while Piccolo is above all of them. I suppose that to Toriyama training with SS Goku would make miracles.

I disagree with this reasoning. Trunks was a good deal above 19 and 20, and I don't think he got much stronger from his original visit. How much time even passed for him?

[dragon boss z]

Androids 17 and 18 (Super era, after training for tournament of power) vs Goku Black. Do the androids stand a chance?

No

[LowRyder2005]

1. Tien - who is clearly shown sensing Goku's SS power when he transforms alongside Trunks - thinks there's nothing wrong with the Android Arc SS Goku and remarks how otherwordly he is compared to all of them. Gohan and Piccolo are the only one who realize he is not fighting at maximum power (Piccolo goes as far as saying that Goku is "really weak"). This means:

SS Goku (healthy; Android) > SS Goku (sick; Android) >= SS Goku (Mecha Freeza)

Tien said the power of a ssj is amazing, not the power of current Goku's ssj form. Logically he should of sensed Goku's power whenever he trained with Piccolo from wherever he was on the planet.

2. Sealing the deal, Piccolo says that "whether you turned out to be weaker, or we grew too strong". This is a bit subtle, but bear in mind that Piccolo thinks he would be facing Androids who were above the same SS Trunks who fought Freeza. If the Androids turned out to be *weaker* than Trunks and Freeza, he wouldn't imply there was the possibility they were weaker; he'd say they were outright weaker, period... as in "these guys wouldn't even kill Trunks". "You turned out to be weaker (fact), and maybe we've also grown too strong". With his "weaker" he thinks that instead of being "far above Trunks and everyone else", they turned out to be "moderately above".

This kind of sounds bias. Piccolo flat out says he didn't know if they were weaker or if they were to strong. So all the proves is he doesn't know. And Piccolo is well aware the future can change so he could possible think these androids were just weaker, and he would of been right because the future did change and that's why they were weaker.

There's also Krillin mentioning Piccolo has abnormal strength for someone who isn't a Super Saiyan, although not definitive as the rest.

I'm glad you acknowledge this statement isn't definitive, as to Krillin Frieza would also have abnormal strength for someone who isn't ssj.

Piccolo's max estimation of the #19 and #20 who defeated Trunks > SS Vegeta > SS Goku (healthy; Android) > Piccolo > Gero (post-absorption) > Gero (pre-absorption) > #19 (pre-absorption) > SS Trunks > SS Goku (Namek) > Freeza

But Piccolo knows they can absorb energy. So he may of thought they got stronger overtime, hence why they could defeat Trunks, who didn't even reach Namek Goku level until close to when he first went back in time.

The only thing we don't know with certainty is, basically, if SS Goku post-Yardrat with no additional training would have won against #19 or Gero. Still the dialogues end up implying #19 and #20 are above Trunks, if only a little, and they're both above the Trunks who kills Freeza, while Piccolo is above all of them. I suppose that to Toriyama training with SS Goku would make miracles.

I disagree with this reasoning. Trunks was a good deal above 19 and 20, and I don't think he got much stronger from his original visit. How much time even passed for him?

Nope, can't work. You are missing the context of Tien's and Piccolo exchange. It more or less literally goes like this (chapt. 147, page 9):

*context: SS Goku and #19 are fighting, with Goku having an edge*
Piccolo: "Goku is rushing the battle, for some reason. He's already giving it everything he's got; but look at how weak he is".
Tien: "Weak?! What are you talking about?".

Now, you also have an entire panel of Tien perceiving Goku's ki when he goes Super Saiyan among everyone else in the Mecha Freeza arc: he gets how strong Goku is in both Android arc; he sees Goku later and reacts as if him being "weak" at all was an impossibility when Piccolo tells him. And he also knows that Goku is going all out and doesn't find his strength or performance strange. At most he would've said "yeah, but he's clearly not going all out" or "what are you saying? He clearly has more in store". I guess that at most we could make a hypothesis about Goku suppressing himself when facing Trunks at that point (should still be above Namek Freeza, though, given Vegeta's comment).

The second is not my bias at all, those are literally Piccolo's words deconstructed. I don't think you're thinking this thoroughly: he wouldn't imply there was a possibility involving the Androids being weaker if he had Androids weaker than the Trunks he had seen and who told them he couldn't beat them. I mean, he'd just say "they were weaker" and not something amounting to "maybe you were weaker or maybe we were too strong". He'd say "you guys turned out to be weaker (compared to your alternate selves who were above Freeza and Trunks) and we've also trained and maybe gotten too strong (to make this even remotely close)". It's absolutely clear he's always starting off the premise the Androids *were* stronger than Trunks, since those are the minimum requirements to make him have doubts on anything, and that he's just considering the possibility that the original Androids could've been stronger than the Androids he has seen. To be completely honest, Piccolo also confirms the Androids do not emit ki, though, so that might be what's throwing him off.

Trunks had all the time in the world to train if he wanted to, I don't see what's the big deal here. Plus, the story can more or less work with Trunks being at the same level he was; while iffy, since there are some comments about how Trunks being defeated in one hit spelt doom for everyone else, it's definitely less narrative-breaking than Piccolo's comment or Tien's perception of Goku (to be honest, the guy makes it seem like it's the first time he's ever seen Goku as a Super Saiyan; but he probably just means he's seeing it up close).

[dragon boss z]

Now, you also have an entire panel of Tien perceiving Goku's ki when he goes Super Saiyan among everyone else in the Mecha Freeza arc: he gets how strong Goku is in both Android arc; he sees Goku later and reacts as if him being "weak" at all was an impossibility when Piccolo tells him. And he also knows that Goku is going all out and doesn't find his strength or performance strange. At most he would've said "yeah, but he's clearly not going all out" or "what are you saying? He clearly has more in store". I guess that at most we could make a hypothesis about Goku suppressing himself when facing Trunks at that point (should still be above Namek Freeza, though, given Vegeta's comment).

In the manga Vegeta never sensed namek ssj Goku. And he didn't really fight Trunks and he said Trunks wasn't serious either. I'm going to assume Tien made those statements because it was the first time he saw a ssj truly in action, and I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama forgot that Tien saw ssj already.

The second is not my bias at all, those are literally Piccolo's words deconstructed. I don't think you're thinking this thoroughly: he wouldn't imply there was a possibility involving the Androids being weaker if he had Androids weaker than the Trunks he had seen and who told them he couldn't beat them. I mean, he'd just say "they were weaker" and not something amounting to "maybe you were weaker or maybe we were too strong". He'd say "you guys turned out to be weaker (compared to your alternate selves who were above Freeza and Trunks) and we've also trained and maybe gotten too strong (to make this even remotely close)". It's absolutely clear he's always starting off the premise the Androids *were* stronger than Trunks, since those are the minimum requirements to make him have doubts on anything, and that he's just considering the possibility that the original Androids could've been stronger than the Androids he has seen. To be completely honest, Piccolo also confirms the Androids do not emit ki, though, so that might be what's throwing him off.

Like I said, Piccolo may of thought the android's absorbance power was what made them so dangerous. Also he can't sense their energy, which is why he doesn't know if they are stronger or weaker than he thought. Not to mention that Trunks said he was strong enough to face future 17 and 18 in a 1v1, so maybe Piccolo thought that both 19 and 20 together were what were to much for Trunks. The fact that Piccolo even brings up the fact that they may be weaker in this time line (which they actually were) kind of makes your argument fall flat. At best it puts Piccolo at ssj tier, which I think cheapens the ssj transformation. Piccolo didn't truly reach ssj tier until fussing with Kami imo.

Trunks had all the time in the world to train if he wanted to, I don't see what's the big deal here. Plus, the story can more or less work with Trunks being at the same level he was; while iffy, since there are some comments about how Trunks being defeated in one hit spelt doom for everyone else, it's definitely less narrative-breaking than Piccolo's comment or Tien's perception of Goku (to be honest, the guy makes it seem like it's the first time he's ever seen Goku as a Super Saiyan; but he probably just means he's seeing it up close).

It doesn't matter if he had all of the time in the world to train, he came back as the exact same age as before which means he couldn't have trained for over a year.