Does Funimation really treat Dragonball that bad?

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Vekurotto
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Post by Vekurotto » Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:00 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:You must be joking. GT easily fared the worst, DBZ coming a very, very close second, and original Dragon Ball coming a semi-distant third.
I think they mean it was released from beginning to end with the next episode previews, and the correct OP/ED with the proper the episode credits.

Personally they did their "best" with Dragonball from a dubbing standpoint and from a release standpoint. They released the parts in Dragonball by "saga" and those had upwards of 8 episodes per DVD as said mentioned before. Dragonball has the least amount of problems in comparison to the DBZ dub, that has a script so crappy it might as well be its own continuity rather than a translation. And GT dub which has crappy, boring music.

I can't blame Funimation as a whole either but they've proven time and time again that they can do things right with everything they own but they screw over the Dragonball fans every damn time.
Be grateful the filler in Dragon Ball doesn't suck like the 3rd arc of Rurouni Kenshin.

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Post by Jerseymilk » Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:48 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Jerseymilk wrote:Does anyone else find it incredibly ironic that the best treated series by Funi out of all three has been GT? The crappiest one. XD
You must be joking. GT easily fared the worst, DBZ coming a very, very close second, and original Dragon Ball coming a semi-distant third.
Uh no it didn't. :?

Other than that Lost Episode thing, the GT releases were put out in nice sets with effort put into the boxart and there was no messing with the film in any way and the sound was good. Plus the volumes are still much easier to get in comparison to the DB ones. You obviously must be thinking I'm talking about the series themselves or something.
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Re: Does Funimation really treat Dragonball that bad?

Post by JohnnyBoy_Z » Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:56 pm

Jermyn wrote:Does Funimation really deserve all blame and abuse it gets here on this board?
In my opinion, yes. FUNi deserves all the abuse it gets. Am I at least glad that they brought the series over to the states? Yes Iam. But they just screwed up the series way too much with their English dub. I don't need to go into any details, as I'm sure most hardcore fans here would agree with everything I would rant about. My main grudges are (1) FUNi releasing DBZ before DB (for whatever stupid reason), and (2) FUNi altering the original script to make the series more kiddy-friendly.

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Re: Does Funimation really treat Dragonball that bad?

Post by Duo » Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:57 pm

JohnnyBoy_Z wrote:
Jermyn wrote:Does Funimation really deserve all blame and abuse it gets here on this board?
In my opinion, yes. FUNi deserves all the abuse it gets. Am I at least glad that they brought the series over to the states? Yes Iam. But they just screwed up the series way too much with their English dub. I don't need to go into any details, as I'm sure most hardcore fans here would agree with everything I would rant about. My main grudges are (1) FUNi releasing DBZ before DB (for whatever stupid reason), and (2) FUNi altering the original script to make the series more kiddy-friendly.
Kiddy-friendly?

No.

They made it more retard-friendly.

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Re: Does Funimation really treat Dragonball that bad?

Post by Kendamu » Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:59 pm

Duo wrote:
JohnnyBoy_Z wrote:
Jermyn wrote:Does Funimation really deserve all blame and abuse it gets here on this board?
In my opinion, yes. FUNi deserves all the abuse it gets. Am I at least glad that they brought the series over to the states? Yes Iam. But they just screwed up the series way too much with their English dub. I don't need to go into any details, as I'm sure most hardcore fans here would agree with everything I would rant about. My main grudges are (1) FUNi releasing DBZ before DB (for whatever stupid reason), and (2) FUNi altering the original script to make the series more kiddy-friendly.
Kiddy-friendly?

No.

They made it more retard-friendly.
Quoted for truth. It was already a kids show before it even hit the States.

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Re: Does Funimation really treat Dragonball that bad?

Post by Xyex » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:20 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:
Xyex wrote:FUNi didn't try to Americanize it. Saban did.
Of course, that's why when FUNi took over production fully the series became much more faithful to the original! With great scripts, professional voice acting and realistic portrayals of characters accompanied by the original score!

...wait...err, 'Mondo Cool'?

-Corey
:roll:

Ok, so, you just got a Series. This Series is really popular everywhere but it hasn't done much of anything here yet. You decide to put the Series on TV in a timeslot where it'll get a lot of viewership. Series becomes more popular than you had ever dreamed. Series runs out of pre-existing dubbed material so you need to start making new material. Do you A) Keep doing what made the show popular in the first place. Or B) Jarringly switch tactics completely changing the tone of the dub from what it was to something else and hope the fans from the original dub stick around long enough to get used to it?

Yeah, you do A. No company would ever do B in that situation. You do what you know works, you don't take chances with killing something. I'm sure they already lost a few fans when they changed to in house voice work so that they wouldn't have to outsource anymore. Once you've completed the run of said Series you can then go back and do whatever the hell you want to try and get new fans.
Kunzait_83 wrote:No offense, and not to start an argument, but this sentence is so incorrect on so many levels I could spend pages ripping it to shreds. Not that I'm saying Saban didn't try to Americanize it (cause they did)... but FUNimation more than picked up the slack in their stead.
No offense, but any arguement you would make would ammount to nothing more than a whiny fanboy rant. Refer to the first part of this post for reasons why.
JohnnyBoy_Z wrote:In my opinion, yes. FUNi deserves all the abuse it gets. Am I at least glad that they brought the series over to the states? Yes Iam. But they just screwed up the series way too much with their English dub. I don't need to go into any details, as I'm sure most hardcore fans here would agree with everything I would rant about. My main grudges are (1) FUNi releasing DBZ before DB (for whatever stupid reason), and (2) FUNi altering the original script to make the series more kiddy-friendly.
1) The original DB was brought to the states and dubbed first. Before Z had even started in Japan I believe. The market testing was an uber flop though (which was likely a good thing, or we'd be talking about Zero and not Goku) so it was canned. Then it came over and got another dub of the first 13 episdoes which actually made it to the airwaves. And then got canned because it flopped. Someone decided to try DBZ and that didn't flop. Until it got to Toonami it was just sort of dragging but it never flopped.

2) The first two seasons were Saban's syndication standards at work. The following seasons slowly but steadily changed and improved. Again, refer to the first part of this post for reasons why it was slow and steady and not at the drop of a hat once season 3 started. Especially since Season 3 was mid story arc. Sure, the show was made to suit a bit of a lower target age (8 instead of 12) but that's more the fault of American standards. Look at the time-slot they Naruto in order to keep the minimal edits. That didn't exist when DBZ came over, DBZ came over as a morning cartoon for kids before school.
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Re: Does Funimation really treat Dragonball that bad?

Post by MajinVejitaXV » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:12 pm

Xyex wrote:Ok, so, you just got a Series.
That your uncle got you the rights to, despite there being interest in it from other established companies...
This Series is really popular everywhere but it hasn't done much of anything here yet. You decide to put the Series on TV in a timeslot where it'll get a lot of viewership.
So you put it on at 6:30am EST :P
Series becomes more popular than you had ever dreamed.
So popular it gets cancelled! Twice (Dragonball then Dragonball Z)! Granted, then it got syndicated, but initially it failed.
Series runs out of pre-existing dubbed material so you need to start making new material.
Because the show was canned and you didn't expect to make new material, until re-runs took off.
Do you A) Keep doing what made the show popular in the first place. Or B) Jarringly switch tactics completely changing the tone of the dub from what it was to something else and hope the fans from the original dub stick around long enough to get used to it?
Neither! I'd do C) Hire amateur voice talent to undercut costs, refuse to option the original score and hire a local synth musician to do a quick soundtrack and punch up the script (which isn't translated from the Japanese so much as babelfished, per FUNimation themselves) with all sorts of radical 80's lingo. HOLY COSMOS, DON'T PISS OFF THE GOD OF LOVE!
Yeah, you do A. No company would ever do B in that situation.
Wow, One Piece is really fucked then.
You do what you know works, you don't take chances with killing something. I'm sure they already lost a few fans when they changed to in house voice work so that they wouldn't have to outsource anymore. Once you've completed the run of said Series you can then go back and do whatever the hell you want to try and get new fans.
Like re-releasing a series over and over again without actually finishing a single DVD run. Gotcha :P

-Corey
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Post by TripleRach » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:36 pm

FUNimation definitely treated DBZ like crap through the horrendously inaccurate scripts, cheap music, and inexperienced actors. The DVDs were initially expensive, slow paced, and out of order. And then the before uncut volumes to finally close the release gap finished, they were discontinued, with the older volumes going out of print, in favor of the controversial "season" sets. About the only commendable things are the fact that the series has now (finally) been released entirely uncut (I use this term loosely in this case) in some form or another, and they picked the perfect person to do the subtitles.

With GT, they released the entire series uncut in less than two years. People threw a bitchfit in April 2003 when the first DVDs started with episode 17, but it was obvious (at least to me) that they'd release the preceding episodes sooner or later. The scripts were about the same quality as DBZ's, and the music was a joke. The DVDs were released in about the same style as DBZ's, but with a (mostly) more consistent order, complete Japanese credits and previews, and they also lucked into getting Simmons.

And then with DB, it took them six years just to get it to be a US television success (which, granted, isn't entirely their fault), and then another two years after that before they started releasing the show on DVD, despite a couple dozen VHS releases that weren't entirely in order or ever completed, and the fact that DBZ had already been getting DVD releases for a good while. The use of (most of) the original music was a huge plus, but the scripts for all but fifteen episodes were just as bad as DBZ. They also had someone else do the subtitles, and while Mandelin's not particularly bad or anything, it does hurt the consistency. And the only reason the DVDs had so many episodes was because FUNimation had no faith in the series at all. They probably don't care enough to work out whatever issues there are with Kidmark/Lion's Gate, and even if they do, then it's their own fault for sub-licensing it to them in the first place. And here's an interesting factoid: it took over seven years after the uncut dub of Movie 2 was done and released, entirely in house, on VHS before they released it on DVD, and even then it was only in a box set, forcing everyone who bought the other two movies to double dip if they wanted it.

----

So which series really got the worst treatment of the three?

Personally, I think it's DB, since they seem to care so little about it and have little faith in it, and quickly went back on their claims of giving it a more faithful dub. (The first new season did well enough in the ratings with the faithful scripts that Cartoon Network wanted more episodes, so the "to make it sell" excuse doesn't make any sense here.) Plus, the first 13 episodes will probably never be re-released uncut in Region 1, or the first movie at all, thanks to the ridiculous sub-license that they gave out.

At least all of DBZ is available, sort of, and even with the option of Kikuchi's score now. As for DBGT, the only real problem it has, compared to DBZ's dubbing and DVD treatment at least, is that it makes Bruce Faulconer look like John Williams.
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Post by Conan the SSJ » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:07 pm

TripleRach wrote:Everything just said.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head with everything. Couldn't have said any of that better myself. Although, another problem some may see in DragonBall's release style of 8 episodes a disc and why I'm glad GT didn't do this, is that the encoding may end up in a crappier final form. FUNi were able to wise up, I think at the suggestion of VP&T, when they wanted to give the season sets 8 episodes a disc (consisting of 3 audio tracks for each episode, alternate angles for each OP and ED, etc.); needless to say it's a good thing they lowered that count to 7.
14 years later

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Post by Vekurotto » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:16 pm

I don't know why some people continue to put up with their crap. I mean I've only bought Movie 12, the last 4 episodes of DBZ, Piccolo Jr. part 2, and edited DBGT vol."1" on VHS back in the day from them back in the day then just stopped just I just stopped buying Dragonball DVDs from Funi because none of them pleased me because, outside of Piccolo Jr. part 2 they had such a low episode count and the boxsets were too much, at the time. I would have thought that DBZ would have gotten a more sane home video treatment since it's 291 episodes, but I digress.

That and the video quality sucks on all of their Dragonball releases, but now that I know it wasn't Toei's fault but Funi's for altering the colors I digress again. I mean, the R2 DVD releases of Yu Yu Hakusho from are no different from Funi's DVD releases if that says anything.
Be grateful the filler in Dragon Ball doesn't suck like the 3rd arc of Rurouni Kenshin.

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Post by Kunzait_83 » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:39 pm

b
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Post by MajinVejitaXV » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:56 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:The only thing FUNimation’s “creative license” ever accomplished was permanently segregating the fanbase.
QFT.

-Corey

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Post by Thanos6 » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:58 pm

I'll admit that I'm not always a fan of the original soundtrack, and on very rare occasions I do like Faulconer ("Ginyu Transformation," Perfect Cell's Theme), but even if FUNi had hired John Williams it wouldn't have been right; you should make as few changes as possible (namely, the language the characters are speaking) and then let the work stand or fall on its own merits.

Also, whoever decided to make that Kidmark deal needs to be repeatedly slapped upside the head till they can undo it.
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Post by Super Sonic » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:46 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:And call it "fanboy whining" if you want, but I still will never understand why replacing the music is exclusively necessary in the United States.
Sometimes it works better. The Transfromers animes' dubs did that with and no one complained.

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Post by Kirbopher » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:54 pm

Super Sonic wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:And call it "fanboy whining" if you want, but I still will never understand why replacing the music is exclusively necessary in the United States.
Sometimes it works better. The Transfromers animes' dubs did that with and no one complained.
Actually no, they kept the original score. At least Armada did to my knowledge.

I still don't fully understand it either.

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Post by SonEric84 » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:59 pm

Changing the music was just stupid and unnecessary.

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Post by Super Sonic » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:02 pm

Oh. Well I knew the theme songs weren't and the last ep of Cybertron had the dub theme at the end of the ep as the ships are flying off.

I don't know if it's due to the old series or what, but they are one of the few where name changes from the original Japanese aren't cared about.

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Post by SatoSky » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:13 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:You're using the old "they had to remain consistent with what Saban did" argument, and that does hold water, but only up to a point. Yes that accounts for why the voices were all pale imitations of the Ocean cast, and yes that accounts for why many of the bad translation decisions relating to episodes past had to be carried over.

None of that however explains why dialogue that does not relate to prior events had to be further messed with resulting in entire scenarios and character moments having their context completely altered for no discernable reason.

There's nothing "whiny" or "fanboyish" about demanding that a script for a long running series make sense and contain a sense of cohesiveness and consistent logic; especially when it had already been written long ago with those fundamentals (largely) in place. That's not whining; that's just called "having standards."

Nothing left over by the Saban produced episodes warranted stuff like the myriad of glaring mistranslations in the Bardock special, or reducing major plot points of the Buu arc into vaguely defined nonsense, or adding in extra lines of dialogue when character's mouths aren't seen moving that nine times out of ten create plot holes and continuity errors where none previously existed.

Nothing about "keeping consistent" with what they'd done during the syndication era warranted them deliberately "softening" the tone of the series overall, or taking it in creative directions exclusive to their version, something that was NEVER done in any previous dub of the series, at least not anywhere near this extent.

All of those things fall into one of two broad categories: amateurish mistakes made by a then young and fledgling production company that has thankfully since then gotten immensely better with regards to their other properties, or incomprehensible creative decisions that point to an arrogant attitude of "we can make this better, we can make this our own".

And frankly, this series' popularity in the U.S. has jack all to do with the alterations FUNimation made to it, and anyone who says so is being disingenuous. It's popular for the same reasons it's popular everywhere else across the globe... Toriyama's amazing art style and knack for striking character designs, and the series' overall excellence for putting together insane, ridiculous fight sequences.

If FUNimation's dub proved anything, it proved that Dragon Ball is so durable and immortal as a franchise that you can bastardize it any number of ways and it will still be viable; you can replace Kikuchi's iconic (and record selling) soundtrack with synthetic garbage, reduce the voice acting performances to sub-porn levels of schlock, and make the plot as incomprehensible and inconsequential as a straight to video Dolph Lundgren flick... and millions of people will STILL love the shit out of it.

They could have had every character voiced by Mickey Rooney, replace the dialogue with scripts from old Facts of Life episodes, and used the soundtrack to Pee Wee’s Playhouse, and they would’ve still made a mint.

The only thing FUNimation’s “creative license” ever accomplished was permanently segregating the fanbase.

All they had to do to ensure its popularity was stick it on a channel where it would be seen by millions of people (and no, 6:00 am on a motherfucking Saturday or Sunday in syndication hell doesn't count), and they would already win. Toriyama's visuals all by themselves would sell the show; anything else done to the show creatively is just the production team stroking its own ego.

I’m sure you’ll disagree with me, but the fact that it’s a time tested money maker in so many countries, with so many various social taboos and customs, with so fewer liberties taken… all of that speaks volumes for how necessary FUNimation’s more “extreme” creative licenses truly were.

And call it "fanboy whining" if you want, but I still will never understand why replacing the music is exclusively necessary in the United States.
Whoa. Talk about hitting the nail on its God damn head. :shock:

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Post by SonEric84 » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:18 pm

Kinda ironic/sucks that the most popular threads on the board lately have been ones where we're all complaining about the show we're fans of. (I guess it's not really the show itself...but still.)

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Post by Super Sonic » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:51 pm

SonEric84 wrote:Changing the music was just stupid and unnecessary.
It worked for Voltron and Ultimate Muscle.

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