What's the point of all this hype and build up IF...

[Kinokima]

But you are right I guess Goku's track record may not be as good as its perceived. But he doesn't usually embarrass himself in fights. I think that does make Goku seem
more of a winner than maybe he actually is.

Also that he doesn't pout and get angry when he loses.

But he barely outright actually does lose. But to Goku losing would just mean he needs to improve. You are right I think Goku always has a positive attitude it's who he is and it's one of his strengths

Well, yeah, because he's always been an egotistical character

Or it's just the way Vegeta's speech pattern is and it makes his character. Vegeta can be a bit full of himself but his ego is definitely not what it once was. He already acknowledges that Goku & other fighters are better than him. Old Vegeta yes but this Vegeta no not really.

Vegeta saying he's going to win the TOP all by himself is just talk.





As for pouting that is who he is. And yes it is a flaw. But even that has lessened considerably after the Buu saga. I don't remember Vegeta getting really angry in Super because he lost a fight.

I love them both. I admit Vegeta is my favorite but I don't need to bring Goku down to make Vegeta look better or vice versa. They are both great different character with strengths and weaknesses. If either were perfect it would be pretty boring.

[PMD]

Vegeta's track record is definitely much better since Super but Vegeta not only loses but loses badly especially in Z. Vegeta's one strength is he doesn't give up when he loses and keeps getting up.

But Goku definitely had a better track record then Vegeta. It's not just about how the fight concludes but how Goku looks at the end of the fight.


Like sure Goku jumped out of the ring with Hit so he didn't technically win but Vegeta completely lost.

But you are right I guess Goku's track record may not be as good as its perceived. But he doesn't usually embarrass himself in fights. I think that does make Goku seem
more of a winner than maybe he actually is.

Sorry, but I can't believe we're having this argument about the main protagonist of an entire saga, a character we followed since his childhood to this day, comparing him with a character that once was a villain and evolved in a very nice way (in terms of character development) and probably was added to the "good guys" side because fans liked him more than other good guys.

Nothing against your opinion Kinokima. It's more of an opinion about the entire debate. I just don't get it.

[Kinokima]

Vegeta's track record is definitely much better since Super but Vegeta not only loses but loses badly especially in Z. Vegeta's one strength is he doesn't give up when he loses and keeps getting up.

But Goku definitely had a better track record then Vegeta. It's not just about how the fight concludes but how Goku looks at the end of the fight.


Like sure Goku jumped out of the ring with Hit so he didn't technically win but Vegeta completely lost.

But you are right I guess Goku's track record may not be as good as its perceived. But he doesn't usually embarrass himself in fights. I think that does make Goku seem
more of a winner than maybe he actually is.

Sorry, but I can't believe we're having this argument about the main protagonist of an entire saga, a character we followed since his childhood to this day, comparing him with a character that once was a villain and evolved in a very nice way (in terms of character development) and probably was added to the "good guys" side because fans liked him more than other good guys.

Nothing against your opinion Kinokima. It's more of an opinion about the entire debate. I just don't get it.

You are right and to be clear I am not saying Goku should lose more or I want him to embarrass himself more. I don't have any problem with Goku winning. I am just sayings it's a matter of perspective and how he loses. He doesn't usually ever truly lose even if he doesn't win. I am not saying that in terms of writing that is a bad thing at all. I am just pointing out that even when there is a list that Goku doesn't win as many times as people think people may not look at it this way because of how those losses come off.

As for Vegeta of course he had to continuously lose in Z. First as the villain and second as the series went on because of his arrogance. Losing was also part of his character growth. But in Super certainly this is no longer the case. That's also not to say I think he can never lose or I think he should now start winning more than Goku. Of course I don't mean that.

In Super I hope there can be balance where many characters get good fights (not just Goku & Vegeta)

[HeroR]

You are right and to be clear I am not saying Goku should lose more or I want him to embarrass himself more. I don't have any problem with Goku winning. I am just sayings it's a matter of perspective and how he loses. He doesn't usually ever truly lose even if he doesn't win. I am not saying that in terms of writing that is a bad thing at all. I am just pointing out that even when there is a list that Goku doesn't win as many times as people think people may not look at it this way because of how those losses come off.

As for Vegeta of course he had to continuously lose in Z. First as the villain and second as the series went on because of his arrogance. Losing was also part of his character growth. But in Super certainly this is no longer the case. That's also not to say I think he can never lose or I think he should now start winning more than Goku. Of course I don't mean that.

In Super I hope there can be balance where many characters get good fights (not just Goku & Vegeta)

I still think most of it comes down to how Goku and Vegeta take their losses.

Goku loses, it does almost nothing to him. He maybe disappointed, but he gets over it by the next scene and is happy. Like with his lost to Frost he literally says, 'Oh, I lost. Oh, well' and went on to cheer his team. Even when Beerus gave him one of his most embarrassing defeats where he got two-shotted, Goku was more amazed by the lost then upset. The same when Hit 'killed' him. The only times Goku came off a defeat looking really bad was when Popo kicked his ass because you saw Goku get upset and his lost to King Piccolo since you can see how frustrated Goku was getting before real fear set in. Which is why I find it amusing when people want Goku to lose to humble him since he shrugs off losses as a learning experience.

Vegeta losses, 90% of time he's a salty MF to the point of crying once. Even his lost to Hit came off as bitter since he hit the floor in anger.

And there is also how the opponent treats Goku and Vegeta upon defeat.

Goku loses, he usually gets some level of respect, except his defeat to Beerus the first time where Beerus walks off like he just stepped on a bug.

Vegeta loses, he usually treated like dog crap by his opponent like with Freeza, Cell, Buu, and Black. Beerus and Hit were the only ones to give some Vegeta some level of respect when they beat him.

[Lord Frieza]

Goku getting beaten by Jiren really would be no different then his original fight with Vegeta. He lost but his efferts weakend Vegeta enough to allow the others to at least have a chance.

Goku fightes Jiren and his new form lets him put a dent in Jiren's armour. It then up to the rest of the fighters take advantage of that. Taking down Jiren is likely going to be like taking down a raid boss on XV2, everyones going to chip away at his armour until the smartest or luckiest one at the back of the line is able to take him on in a significantly weakned state.

Persenally my money is on Frieza to be the one to finnish the job. Of U7 heavey hitters he's been the one to actually try to conserve his power the most effectively.

[namekiansaiyan]

Goku getting beaten by Jiren really would be no different then his original fight with Vegeta. He lost but his efferts weakend Vegeta enough to allow the others to at least have a chance.

Goku fightes Jiren and his new form lets him put a dent in Jiren's armour. It then up to the rest of the fighters take advantage of that. Taking down Jiren is likely going to be like taking down a raid boss on XV2, everyones going to chip away at his armour until the smartest or luckiest one at the back of the line is able to take him on in a significantly weakned state.

Persenally my money is on Frieza to be the one to finnish the job. Of U7 heavey hitters he's been the one to actually try to conserve his power the most effectively.

The difference here is that Jiren will not be the last fight of the arc. There must be someone else after.

[Lord Frieza]

Goku getting beaten by Jiren really would be no different then his original fight with Vegeta. He lost but his efferts weakend Vegeta enough to allow the others to at least have a chance.

Goku fightes Jiren and his new form lets him put a dent in Jiren's armour. It then up to the rest of the fighters take advantage of that. Taking down Jiren is likely going to be like taking down a raid boss on XV2, everyones going to chip away at his armour until the smartest or luckiest one at the back of the line is able to take him on in a significantly weakned state.

Persenally my money is on Frieza to be the one to finnish the job. Of U7 heavey hitters he's been the one to actually try to conserve his power the most effectively.

The difference here is that Jiren will not be the last fight of the arc. There must be someone else after.

There very well could be but nothing states that the strongest fighters are the ones left standing at the end. The winner is the one with the most fighters left on the platform and the characters most likely to be doing that are ones lik #17, Frieza and the U4 Bugs. They play the game smart and dont let fairness and the desire to fight strong people get in the way of the real goal.

Ediy: It would also make up for that annoying fake out from the U6 arc. Goku can get ringed out early for once, let the others shine (which many fans have been begging for) and raise the stakes couse Goku is out of the game proper.

[HeroR]

There very well could be but nothing states that the strongest fighters are the ones left standing at the end. The winner is the one with the most fighters left on the platform and the characters most likely to be doing that are ones lik #17, Frieza and the U4 Bugs. They play the game smart and dont let fairness and the desire to fight strong people get in the way of the real goal.

Ediy: It would also make up for that annoying fake out from the U6 arc. Goku can get ringed out early for once, let the others shine (which many fans have been begging for) and raise the stakes couse Goku is out of the game proper.

Goku doesn't need to be ringed out for someone to shine. Did Roshi needed Goku out of the ring to get shine? Did Freeze? Did 17? Did Goku being around somewhat kept Tien for doing anything of real used? Was Goku being around caused Krillin to drop out early?

Also, Goku losing to 'raised the stakes' have been used in every story arc in Super. It isn't some new or daring idea and it's really annoying when Dragon Ball fans keeps wanting to bench the main character so their favorite will 'maybe' get spotlight. Honestly, what other fandom thinks this way? Did Naruto fans wanted Naruto to be benched every story arc so such-such character will get spotlight by some chance?

[Lord Frieza]

There very well could be but nothing states that the strongest fighters are the ones left standing at the end. The winner is the one with the most fighters left on the platform and the characters most likely to be doing that are ones lik #17, Frieza and the U4 Bugs. They play the game smart and dont let fairness and the desire to fight strong people get in the way of the real goal.

Ediy: It would also make up for that annoying fake out from the U6 arc. Goku can get ringed out early for once, let the others shine (which many fans have been begging for) and raise the stakes couse Goku is out of the game proper.

Goku doesn't need to be ringed out for someone to shine. Did Roshi needed Goku out of the ring to get shine? Did Freeze? Did 17? Did Goku being around somewhat kept Tien for doing anything of real used? Was Goku being around caused Krillin to drop out early?

Also, Goku losing to 'raised the stakes' have been used in every story arc in Super. It isn't some new or daring idea and it's really annoying when Dragon Ball fans keeps wanting to bench the main character so their favorite will 'maybe' get spotlight. Honestly, what other fandom thinks this way? Did Naruto fans wanted Naruto to be benched every story arc so such-such character will get spotlight by some chance?

I dont care if Goku gets benched or not for one thing.

Reguardless of how things work out its almost always Goku's actions that win out, not his power. Were power failed his stratagies or alliance with another more character succeded. And thats not just Super thats litaraly ever single arc in the series with only two arguable exeptions. While the Goku saves the day menality in not right and overblown in many peoples minds, its not exactly wrong either. Goku dose in one way or another save the day. If he were ringed out here and now however he's hands are completely tied and even if he's not ringed out he might as well be. If he cannot beat Jiren even with this new form and is beaten badley himself then he's just going to spend the rest of the tournamant knocked out only to wake up at some opertunistic moment down the line, with the only real plot tenstion being the other characters trying to make sure he's not ringed out. of the two options Goku getting ringed out for good is nthe better option I feel as it allows for some better narrative work.

And if he was betten then we find ourselevs in a similur situation to the aformationed Vegeta fight and funnily enough the fight with Cell. A situastion where its one of Goku's stratages thats saves the day not his power or dumb luck. Goku's choices of Gohan and Frieza can have validation as they are the ones who must now shoulder the responsibility of winning. Goku himself will also have got what he wanted out of the tournamant "fighting strong new people" and did his job as the teams strongest fighter, weakend the most dangerus guy in the arena enough to allow his team to have a shot at beating him.

and besides theirs a good chance Hit will save Goku's bacon befor he gets ringed out anyway so its all up in the air till this weekend.

[HeroR]

I dont care if Goku gets benched or not for one thing.

Reguardless of how things work out its almost always Goku's actions that win out, not his power. Were power failed his stratagies or alliance with another more character succeded. And thats not just Super thats litaraly ever single arc in the series with only two arguable exeptions. While the Goku saves the day menality in not right and overblown in many peoples minds, its not exactly wrong either. Goku dose in one way or another save the day. If he were ringed out he and now however he's hands are completely tied and even if he's not ringed out he might as well be. If he cannot beat Jiren even with this new form and is beaten badley himself then he's just going to spend the rest of the tournamant knocked out only to wake up at some opertunistic moment down the line, with the only real plot tenstion being the other characters trying to make sure he's not ringed out. of the two options Goku getting ringed out for good is nthe better option I feel as it allows for some better narrative work.

And if he was betten then we find ourselevs in a similur situation to the aformationed Vegeta fight and funnily enough the fight with Cell. A situastion where its one of Goku's stratages thats saves the day not his power or dumb luck. Goku's choices of Gohan and Frieza can have validation as they are the ones who must now shoulder the responsibility of winning. Goku himself will also have got what he wanted out of the tournamant "fighting strong new people" and did his job as the teams strongest fighter, weakend the most dangerus guy in the arena enough to allow his team to have a shot at beating him.

and besides theirs a good chance Hit will save Goku's bacon befor he gets ringed out anyway so its all up in the air till this weekend.

How did Goku's actions allow Trunks to win against Merged Zamasu? I guess it's him brining the button that got the timeline erased despite Zen'o doing the actual work. Also, what strategy? He got lucky with Freeza destroying the Earth and Hit throwing his fight against Monaka to return the favor. It isn't like he planned for those things to happened.

Vegeta by this logic also saves the day in his own way, yet few asked for him to be bench early to give someone spotlight.

As I said, Goku being benched or losing isn't new in Super so that novelty wore out a long time ago. Also not sure why you think Freeza would go anywhere near Jiren if he knocked around a stronger than ever Goku.

[Lord Frieza]

How did Goku's actions allow Trunks to win against Merged Zamasu? I guess it's him brining the button that got the timeline erased despite Zen'o doing the actual work. Also, what strategy? He got lucky with Freeza destroying the Earth and Hit throwing his fight against Monaka to return the favor. It isn't like he planned for those things to happened.

Vegeta by this logic also saves the day in his own way, yet few asked for him to be bench early to give someone spotlight.

As I said, Goku being benched or losing isn't new in Super so that novelty wore out a long time ago. Also not sure why you think Freeza would go anywhere near Jiren if he knocked around a stronger than ever Goku.

In terms of stratagie what i want is for it to go back to that, Goku has not used stratagie in Super but in Z he did or at least made smart choices. For example after getting beaten by Vegeta Goku still actively helped by giveing Krillien the Genki Dama, telling Gohan to bounce to bounce it back and most importatnly of all getting Gohan to transform into an Oozaru. All those things he did while comletely immoblie. Then agenst Cell, Goku saw that Gohan had the power to beat Cell, he only battled the Cell so Gohan could get an idea of how he fights then gave Gohan the supported Gohan from the the after life. While nothing went according to plan with Buu is did try get the boys to toughen up on their own.

As you say Vegeta's logic has helped to, Gohan has helped...hell if you count GT everyone bare #17 and Frieza have helped at some point. This is what I'm aiming at, Goku can do his part, be instramental to winning but dose not ahve to be the person who lands the final blow. Even if he gets benched, thats not going to take away from what he'd have achived. But the core idea od this arc is that everyones got a purpose and without Goku to lean on through out the whole thing the writes can build on that idea and make things a bit more complex like the Z era. I'm not saying "WE DON'T NEED GOKU" we do he's the main character but their are smarter ways to use him and the caste in an arc thats been built up to be about team work.

As for Frieza going near Jiren, thats what my whole point in first post. My idea is this....

Jiren is like a mountain blocking everyones path to victory and theres no way round it, your gonna have to go through. Now you have got a lot of tools but no replacments so your gonna gace to work you way though them. Goku is you big state of the art, dimond tipped drill. So you use him first to try and get through Jiren and you do a pretty good job but half way through Goku packs up and is out of action. Now you still have to get through Jiren, so you you start brinning out other tool (in this case fighters) to wittle away at this bloody mountain until your through.

Frieza wont go anywere near Jiren now, but aganest a Jiren who's just been worn down by Goku, Hit, Vegeta etc....well thats a whole different ball game is it not?

[HeroR]

In terms of stratagie what i want if for it to go back to that, Goku has not used stratagie in Super but in Z he did or at least amke smart choices. For example after getting beaten by Vegeta Goku still actively helped by giveing Krillien the Genki Dama, telling Gohan to bounce to bounce it back and most importatnly of all getting Gohan to transform into an Oozaru. All those things he did while comletely immoblie. Then agenst Cell, Goku saw that Gohan had the power to beat Cell, he only battled the Cell so Gohan could get an idea of how he fights then gave Gohan the supported Gohan from the the after life. While nothing went according to plan with Buu is did try get the boys to toughen up on their own.

As you say Vegeta's logic has helped to, Gohan has helped...hell if you count GT everyone bare #17 and Frieza have helped at some point. This is what I'm aiming at, Goku can do his part, be instramental to winning but dose not ahve to be the person who lands the final blow. Even if he gets benched, thats not going to take away from what he'd have achived. But the core idea od this arc is that everyones got a purpose and without Goku to lean on through out the whole thing the writes can build on that idea and make things a bit more complex like the Z era. I'm not saying "WE DON'T NEED GOKU" we do he's the main character but their are smarter ways to use him and the caste in an arc thats been built up to be about team work.

As for Frieza going near Jiren, thats what my whole point in first post. My idea is this....

Jiren is like a mountain blocking everyones path to victory and theres no way round it, your gonna have to go through. Now you have got a lot of tools but no replacments so your gonna gace to work you way though them. Goku is you big state of the art, dimond tipped drill. So you use him first to try and get through Jiren and you do a pretty good job but half way through Goku packs up and is out of action. Now you still have to get through Jiren, so you you start brinning out other tool (in this case fighters) to wittle away at this bloody mountain until your through.

Frieza wont go anywere near Jiren now, but aganest a Jiren who's just been worn down by Goku, Hit, Vegeta etc....well thats a whole different ball game is it not?

I would never called depending on Gohan in the Cell Games a 'smart' choice and about fighting Cell so Gohan could see how he fought, that was only said in the anime. The same with Gotenks who ended screwing things up because he was the fusion of two kids instead of Goku just handling things himself. Also, it was King Kai that told Goku about bouncing the Spirit Ball.

And why does it matter or not if Goku land the killing blow? If Goku does it, it undermines everyone else or something? The characters haven't even been leaning on Goku this arc. In fact, Goku got saved by his teammate more than he have helped them. He did more for U6 than his own universe. And Z era was never complex outside of the Namek Saga and then it go simple once only Freeze was left. The 'let's wait for Goku' was never complex. And again, Goku being benched or not does really effect teamwork since teamwork happened regardless of what Goku does, unless teamwork only counts for the final battle.

Depends on Jiren. Just because his weaken doesn't mean he can't body everyone, especially if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken x20 does nothing against him. Do you know how high that is? That would mean that Jiren is over 20x times stronger than Freeza and that is a severe low-ball. Even using Vegeta from the Saiyan Saga, he was less than x10 stronger than Gohan and Krillin, yet even weakened and barely able to move bodied everyone. Jiren have to be basically crippled for Freeza to do anything. And that's not including Toppo who maybe stronger than Freeza depending if Toppo is equal to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken Goku and Dypso who could probably out-speed Freeze. They're not just going to sit there want watched Jiren get ganged up on, unlike with their other teammates.

[pacz360]

I've said this before, but I think the whole "Goku always saves the day" mentality stems from the movies and GT, where Toei were really played up the whole notion that Goku is only one to get the main glory.

When it comes to the original story (the manga) and Dragon Ball Super, but ironically especially more-so in Super, Goku's track record in the main conflicts is not good against the central antagonists:

In the original story
- Lost to Roshi in the final of 21st WMAT
- Lost to Tien in the final of 22nd WMAT
- Decimated 95% of the Red Ribbon Army
- Lost to King Piccolo
- Beat King Piccolo in the rematch
- Beat Piccolo Jr
- Got his ass handed to him by Raditz, and only won via assist. And even then Goku still died.
- Beat Nappa
- Lost to Vegeta
- Beat Recoome and Burter
- Lost to Ginyu
- Beat Freeza
- Lost to Android 19
- Forfeited against Cell
- Lost to Majin Boo

In Super:
- Lost to Beerus
- Lost to Freeza
- Beat Botamo
- Lost to Frost (although that lost was nullified as Frost was disqualified)
- Forfeited against Hit
- Beat Copy Vegeta
- Lost to Goku Black and/or Zamasu (So. Many. Times.)
- Fought Hit to a draw
- Beat Bergamo
- Fought Toppo to a draw

Goku loses a lost in Dragon Ball.

This list needs to be shoved down the throats of anyone that perpetuates this false idea that Goku always saves the day. I'm too lazy to go and count, but I'd honestly wager that he's LOST damn near as many, if not MORE times than he's won. And I'd also wager his ratio is about the same as Vegeta's honestly, maybe a LITTLE better. But no, people will still continue that "Vegeta never wins" and that "Goku always wins".

Vegeta's track record is definitely much better since Super but Vegeta not only loses but loses badly especially in Z. Vegeta's one strength is he doesn't give up when he loses and keeps getting up.

But Goku definitely had a better track record then Vegeta. It's not just about how the fight concludes but how Goku looks at the end of the fight.


Like sure Goku jumped out of the ring with Hit so he didn't technically win but Vegeta completely lost.

But you are right I guess Goku's track record may not be as good as its perceived. But he doesn't usually embarrass himself in fights. I think that does make Goku seem
more of a winner than maybe he actually is.

Goku will get shit for things that other characters get defended or praised from when they're really just as guilty as he is.

TBMx said Goku was being egotistical for being resolute in winning, when Vegeta's reply had him referring to himself as -sama.

I don't think Goku is egotistical either but come on Vegeta always talks like this. lol

Would count that as a lost tbh freeza had to rely on his minion to shoot goku who powered down to his base form

[HeroR]

Would count that as a lost tbh freeza had to rely on his minion to shoot goku who powered down to his base form

In the rules of war, Freeza won that one. Under the same rules, however, he also lost when Whis rewind time to allow Goku to kill him.

[Lord Frieza]

I would never called depending on Gohan in the Cell Games a 'smart' choice and about fighting Cell so Gohan could see how he fought, that was only said in the anime. The same with Gotenks who ended screwing things up because he was the fusion of two kids instead of Goku just handling things himself. Also, it was King Kai that told Goku about bouncing the Spirit Ball.

And why does it matter or not if Goku land the killing blow? If Goku does it, it undermines everyone else or something? The characters haven't even been leaning on Goku this arc. In fact, Goku got saved by his teammate more than he have helped them. He did more for U6 than his own universe. And Z era was never complex outside of the Namek Saga and then it go simple once only Freeze was left. The 'let's wait for Goku' was never complex. And again, Goku being benched or not does really effect teamwork since teamwork happened regardless of what Goku does, unless teamwork only counts for the final battle.

Depends on Jiren. Just because his weaken doesn't mean he can't body everyone, especially if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken x20 does nothing against him. Do you know how high that is? That would mean that Jiren is over 20x times stronger than Freeza and that is a severe low-ball. Even using Vegeta from the Saiyan Saga, he was less than x10 stronger than Gohan and Krillin, yet even weakened and barely able to move bodied everyone. Jiren have to be basically crippled for Freeza to do anything. And that's not including Toppo who maybe stronger than Freeza depending if Toppo is equal to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken Goku and Dypso who could probably out-speed Freeze. They're not just going to sit there want watched Jiren get ganged up on, unlike with their other teammates.

Well at the end of the day this is all speculastion based on personal prefrance, what will be will be at the end of the day. I cant complain to much when my teams star player is not only stronger then SSBKKx20 Goku but if he's got enough energy to doa few rounds with Hit, he's not loseing to any silver eyes saiyan.

As for the power gap with Frieza, well Friez'as Golden Form already has the biggest multiplier in this franchise by a big margen and he outmatched Goku by almost 50x during the fight on namek, so I'm well awaire how rediculasely power Jiren is shapeing up to be. Hell if he can take hits from SSBKK Goku he's powerful enough to give fused Zamasu trouble. But talking anout Golden Frieza, we'll after seeing him use his 100% full power form again, a form that was at least hinted at being simply a byproduct of his own lack of crontrol of his final forms power......I've got a hunch there may be a 100% Full Power Golden Frieza in the future...