The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:28 am

In the manga Vegeta never sensed namek ssj Goku. And he didn't really fight Trunks and he said Trunks wasn't serious either. I'm going to assume Tien made those statements because it was the first time he saw a ssj truly in action, and I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama forgot that Tien saw ssj already.
Uh... I'm starting to believe you should really re-read those chapters. He senses Goku as a Super Saiyan when he transforms with Trunks and comments that it's obvious he'd beat Freeza like that -- besides, Trunks also implies he's using the same technique and power he used to chop Freeza to bits. I obviously cannot prove it's not impossible Toriyama forgot but he had literally written that chapter, what, two weeks before?
Like I said, Piccolo may of thought the android's absorbance power was what made them so dangerous. Also he can't sense their energy, which is why he doesn't know if they are stronger or weaker than he thought. Not to mention that Trunks said he was strong enough to face future 17 and 18 in a 1v1, so maybe Piccolo thought that both 19 and 20 together were what were to much for Trunks. The fact that Piccolo even brings up the fact that they may be weaker in this time line (which they actually were) kind of makes your argument fall flat. At best it puts Piccolo at ssj tier, which I think cheapens the ssj transformation. Piccolo didn't truly reach ssj tier until fussing with Kami imo.
Piccolo specifically says the Androids "weren't as strong/tough" at any point. And what's stated is that Trunks only fought #18 and #17 who weren't exerting "even half of their power". Really, re-read the chapters. Let's not forget stuff like the post-energy absorption #19 "multiplying his power" and making SS Vegeta (who's stronger than Android Arc SS Goku, who's stronger than sick Goku, who's stronger than Namek Goku) bleed with a punch. Something I doubt any form of Freeza would be able to, including Mecha, who's already treated as a substantial improvement.

I'm starting to think there's a little comprehension problem. I already told you: he would not talk of the Androids being weaker as a possibility or something he'd second guess, assuming he can deduce their strength. If they aren't even above Freeza he wouldn't say that "maybe they got too strong or maybe they had become weaker in the new timeline", he'd just say the Androids WERE in fact weaker and MAYBE they (the Z fighters) had also gotten too strong. This is simple logic. The only potentially valid counter-argument that makes somewhat sense is that he would get confused because the Androids don't emit ki.
With "too strong" he just means that he surpassed "some hypothetical Androids who are weaker than their counteparts". But the fact those Androids would beat Trunks and Freeza in strength is never questioned and if the implied notion was an actual impossibility, since Piccolo now knows their power, he wouldn't talk about those characters as MAYBE weaker than expected.

The consequence of your argument is that Piccolo would see Androids weaker than Freeza and consider the possibility that maybe they were stronger than Freeza ("maybe you were too weak = maybe you also were as strong as you were claimed to be") despite the fact that a weaker-than-Freeza Piccolo could curbstomp 'em. The most you can theorize is that Piccolo lacks the means to make a comparison.
It doesn't matter if he had all of the time in the world to train, he came back as the exact same age as before which means he couldn't have trained for over a year.
I don't believe there's any statement about Trunks age, and all Saiyans stop visually aging at around (late) puberty anyway. Theoretically, he could easily be three or four years older and he'd look the same. He also looks the same in Super many, many years after (but even post-ROSAT, he just has some extra muscles and longer hair; compare that to Gohan, who visibly ages). Otherwise, getting 30% stronger is not that incredible even in a year by Dragon Ball standards. Maybe he tried fighting (suppressed) #17 and (suppressed) #18 some more times and his power increased in a year, just sayin'.
Plus, like I said, the story really can work even with Trunks being marginally above. You're reading this one arc after Goku magically goes from 90,000 to 3,000,000 in a few hours; and Piccolo trained with a Goku who could go Super Saiyan. If Toriyama wanted to elevate Piccolo to near Super Saiyan levels he wouldn't have had a problem with it. Every later statement has more to do with Trunks being one-shot material for the Androids. It would simply mean Piccolo, Gero, #19 and Trunks all fell in the same ballpark (with Piccolo and Gero having an edge). Trunks is a non-issue here no matter how you want to look at it.

Like I said, it's not impossible to keep Piccolo below Freeza if you really want to, it just needs some extra (albeit fairly gratuitous) "what a coincidence" conditions.

- Everyone seeing a suppressed SS Goku vs. SS Trunks who are both weaker than Freeza; Vegeta being the only one realizing he'd actually be able to beat Freeza by calculating the multiplier in his head(?).
- Piccolo getting confused because the Androids do not emit ki.

Stuff like that, basically.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:41 pm

Zeno vs this guy:[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:51 pm

dbgtFO wrote:Zeno vs this guy:[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Bruce almighty only had power within his city of Buffalo. I remember God saying to him that everything would be too difficult for him. So if they fight in Buffalo. Bruce wins. Anywhere else, Zeno.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:18 pm

Berserker1921 wrote: Bruce almighty only had power within his city of Buffalo. I remember God saying to him that everything would be too difficult for him. So if they fight in Buffalo. Bruce wins. Anywhere else, Zeno.
Really, wow it's been too long, since I watched it :lol:

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:00 pm

dragon boss z wrote:I'm sure they could alter the sharpness as they can create ki blasts of different shapes, or at least control the toughness of it. I highly doubt a kienzan from saiyan saga Krillin would be as deadly as one form current Krillin.
Conjecture. Why wouldn't be as deadly? Saiyan Arc Kuririn's Kienzan was never shown to have a limit. I remember seeing somewhere Toriyama stated a Kinezan can cut anything.

Tien saying "so this is Goku as a ssj" is him implying the super saiyan power in general. If what you were saying was true he would mention how much stronger it was than before. Basically all this tells us is something we already know, ssj is far above human level. Logically Tien should know Goku's full power since he should logically be able to sense him from across the planet every time he trained with Piccolo.
If he knows his full power why he's not wondering why he's weaker like Piccolo did? The fact he's completely astonished before this Goku heavily implies he's stronger than everything he has ever seen.
Gohan's power is strange since it fluctuates so much, but before he got any anger boosts he was clearly below Frieza and Vegeta.
This doesn't seem to be the case when he's about to fight 2nd form Freeza without being enraged and Vegeta thinks they can manage something without mentioning his rage boost.
I know, but why would the kami fusion be weaker than the Nail fusion?
Because Nail said Kamiccolo wouldn't be much stronger than 1st form Freeza.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:09 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
If he knows his full power why he's not wondering why he's weaker like Piccolo did? The fact he's completely astonished before this Goku heavily implies he's stronger than everything he has ever seen.
Well, regarding Tien, it's even more clear-cut than that... in that it's not "implied", it's outright stated. Piccolo specifically tells everyone that Goku is "going all-out" and yet "he's weak", with Tien going "there's no way what I've just seen is weak". It's crystal clear that the Goku going "all-out" against #19 is giving it his 100% and is still superior to the one Tien sensed with Trunks; Tien's words - or his disbelief, like you yourself put it - would not make sense otherwise, he'd at least realize the Goku he's watching is inferior to the Goku he had seen before and/or he'd say he has more in store.

The only way to navigate around the statement, in order to keep Piccolo below Freeza, is questioning the Goku that was seen with Trunks, but even there you only find pretty substantial evidence he's still above Freeza (Trunks complimenting him because he survived the sword that "killed Freeza", Vegeta saying that there's no way Freeza would beat him like that, etc). Again, it's still technically possibile to keep him below Freeza, but it's basically one convenient interpretation/justification on top of another one while relinquishing straightforwardness.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:41 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:The only way to navigate around the statement, in order to keep Piccolo below Freeza, is questioning the Goku that was seen with Trunks, but even there you only find pretty substantial evidence he's still above Freeza (Trunks complimenting him because he survived the sword that "killed Freeza", Vegeta saying that there's no way Freeza would beat him like that, etc). Again, it's still technically possibile to keep him below Freeza, but it's basically one convenient interpretation/justification on top of another one while relinquishing straightforwardness.
Freeza > Piccolo is kind of impossible considering Piccolo was confident even before he knew the Androids can absorb energy, and him thinking 20 was one of the expected Androids pretty much confirms it.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:55 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:The only way to navigate around the statement, in order to keep Piccolo below Freeza, is questioning the Goku that was seen with Trunks, but even there you only find pretty substantial evidence he's still above Freeza (Trunks complimenting him because he survived the sword that "killed Freeza", Vegeta saying that there's no way Freeza would beat him like that, etc). Again, it's still technically possibile to keep him below Freeza, but it's basically one convenient interpretation/justification on top of another one while relinquishing straightforwardness.
Freeza > Piccolo is kind of impossible considering Piccolo was confident even before he knew the Androids can absorb energy, and him thinking 20 was one of the expected Androids pretty much confirms it.
Yeah, I'm of the same opinion. The only possibility I can see is Piccolo getting confused because the Androids do not emit ki; however, in the grander scheme of things, it really doesn't matter that much. If they were below Freeza he still would almost certainly comprehend it anyway, and if they truly were below Freeza his dialogue wouldn't make sense. I mean, he should know whether *he* himself is above or below Freeza at that point - for starters - and if he thought Gero was weaker, which is also something very clear, he still wouldn't wouldn't talk about the Androids' strength in hypotheticals -- he'd say they were just weaker than expected because of a chain like "Trunks > Freeza > Piccolo > Gero". One'd also need to think Piccolo is not sure about how strong he has become in general (and not just how he compares to his prediction of the Androids), to say the least.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:31 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Conjecture. Why wouldn't be as deadly? Saiyan Arc Kuririn's Kienzan was never shown to have a limit. I remember seeing somewhere Toriyama stated a Kinezan can cut anything.
It doesn't make sense that they can't control it. It's just a thin ki blast they create, so logically they can create it how they want. One example of ki blasts that seemed to be between discs and regular ki blats are the ones Golden Frieza threw at SSB Goku in the movie. They almost look like flying saucers, but Goku can hit them away with his arms.
If he knows his full power why he's not wondering why he's weaker like Piccolo did? The fact he's completely astonished before this Goku heavily implies he's stronger than everything he has ever seen.
When he first saw Goku go ssj he didn't get to sense his full power, even Yamcha said "and this is his ki when he isn't fighting", which means when fighting his ki would shoot up, which is what Tien felt when Goku first fought as a ssj in front of him.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
This doesn't seem to be the case when he's about to fight 2nd form Freeza without being enraged and Vegeta thinks they can manage something without mentioning his rage boost.
Well Vegeta was grasping at straws at that point. We know Gohan had no chance, and Vegeta didn't think Gohan was stronger than himself, who couldn't do anything to 2nd form Frieza.
Because Nail said Kamiccolo wouldn't be much stronger than 1st form Freeza.
He did not imply his fusion was stronger. When Piccolo said he wouldnt' fuse with Kami Nail said, "then fuse with me", like it's a replacement, not that it was even better. There is no way Piccolo was half of first form Freeza all of a sudden. Even him being Nail level is pushing it. Piccolo was always a bit behind base Goku before fussing with Nail and after 100x gravity training Goku only had a power level of 90,000. Going off similarly in the saiyan saga when Piccolo was 1 step behind Goku in training he had a power level of 3,500 while Goku had a power level of over 8,000 it would make sense for Goku who had a power level of 90,000 for Piccolo to have one maybe around 40,000 which is Nail level and would make sense why Nail was impressed with his power.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:32 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:The only way to navigate around the statement, in order to keep Piccolo below Freeza, is questioning the Goku that was seen with Trunks, but even there you only find pretty substantial evidence he's still above Freeza (Trunks complimenting him because he survived the sword that "killed Freeza", Vegeta saying that there's no way Freeza would beat him like that, etc). Again, it's still technically possibile to keep him below Freeza, but it's basically one convenient interpretation/justification on top of another one while relinquishing straightforwardness.
Freeza > Piccolo is kind of impossible considering Piccolo was confident even before he knew the Androids can absorb energy, and him thinking 20 was one of the expected Androids pretty much confirms it.
Yeah, I'm of the same opinion. The only possibility I can see is Piccolo getting confused because the Androids do not emit ki; however, in the grander scheme of things, it really doesn't matter that much. If they were below Freeza he still would almost certainly comprehend it anyway, and if they truly were below Freeza his dialogue wouldn't make sense. I mean, he should know whether *he* himself is above or below Freeza at that point - for starters - and if he thought Gero was weaker, which is also something very clear, he still wouldn't wouldn't talk about the Androids' strength in hypotheticals -- he'd say they were just weaker than expected because of a chain like "Trunks > Freeza > Piccolo > Gero". One'd also need to think Piccolo is not sure about how strong he has become in general (and not just how he compares to his prediction of the Androids), to say the least.
Actually Piccolo never sensed Frieza at 100%, only 50%, and I do have Piccolo above 50% Frieza.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:40 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Freeza > Piccolo is kind of impossible considering Piccolo was confident even before he knew the Androids can absorb energy, and him thinking 20 was one of the expected Androids pretty much confirms it.
Yeah, I'm of the same opinion. The only possibility I can see is Piccolo getting confused because the Androids do not emit ki; however, in the grander scheme of things, it really doesn't matter that much. If they were below Freeza he still would almost certainly comprehend it anyway, and if they truly were below Freeza his dialogue wouldn't make sense. I mean, he should know whether *he* himself is above or below Freeza at that point - for starters - and if he thought Gero was weaker, which is also something very clear, he still wouldn't wouldn't talk about the Androids' strength in hypotheticals -- he'd say they were just weaker than expected because of a chain like "Trunks > Freeza > Piccolo > Gero". One'd also need to think Piccolo is not sure about how strong he has become in general (and not just how he compares to his prediction of the Androids), to say the least.
Actually Piccolo never sensed Frieza at 100%, only 50%, and I do have Piccolo above 50% Frieza.
I suppose a case could be made for him never sensing any Freeza at 100%, assuming Mecha Freeza was also suppressed, but he sensed Super Saiyan Trunks, who's at least about equal to Super Saiyan Goku and knows the Androids are above him so the point is practically the same.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:09 pm

dragon boss z wrote:It doesn't make sense that they can't control it. It's just a thin ki blast they create, so logically they can create it how they want. One example of ki blasts that seemed to be between discs and regular ki blats are the ones Golden Frieza threw at SSB Goku in the movie. They almost look like flying saucers, but Goku can hit them away with his arms.
But we are not talking about the power of the attack here, but of it's cutting properties, who were never shown to be manipulated.
When he first saw Goku go ssj he didn't get to sense his full power, even Yamcha said "and this is his ki when he isn't fighting", which means when fighting his ki would shoot up, which is what Tien felt when Goku first fought as a ssj in front of him.
Tenshinhan was astonished by standing still Sick Goku too, though.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Well Vegeta was grasping at straws at that point. We know Gohan had no chance, and Vegeta didn't think Gohan was stronger than himself, who couldn't do anything to 2nd form Frieza.
Why he doesn't stand a chance? Freeza was completely unharmed by Enraged Gohan's attacks and did a power up to utterly stomp Gohan, despite tanking a blast on the back from Vegeta. There is no way in hell Vegeta belives things are getting better if Gohan still nothing compared to this Freeza. Gohan was also going to fight Freeza with Vegeta on the backseats praising his power as well.
He did not imply his fusion was stronger. When Piccolo said he wouldnt' fuse with Kami Nail said, "then fuse with me", like it's a replacement, not that it was even better. There is no way Piccolo was half of first form Freeza all of a sudden. Even him being Nail level is pushing it. Piccolo was always a bit behind base Goku before fussing with Nail and after 100x gravity training Goku only had a power level of 90,000. Going off similarly in the saiyan saga when Piccolo was 1 step behind Goku in training he had a power level of 3,500 while Goku had a power level of over 8,000 it would make sense for Goku who had a power level of 90,000 for Piccolo to have one maybe around 40,000 which is Nail level and would make sense why Nail was impressed with his power.
It wasn't implied Piccolo + Nail was stronger, it was shown. Piccolo merged with Nail was slightly stronger than 2nd form Freeza, while it's not even certain if Kamiccolo can take 1st form Freeza. And is 17 more than 10 times stronger than Piccolo? Because fusing with Kami only placed Piccolo equal with 17 on the Android Arc, while on the Freeza Arc Kamiccolo would be a tidbit stronger than 1st form Freeza.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:29 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote: I suppose a case could be made for him never sensing any Freeza at 100%, assuming Mecha Freeza was also suppressed, but he sensed Super Saiyan Trunks, who's at least about equal to Super Saiyan Goku and knows the Androids are above him so the point is practically the same.
The sensing thing is kind of weird. Tien was there two but he acted like he never sensed a ssj before when Goku and 19 fought. It seems they didn't get a full gauge of Trunk's and Goku's power before, though Piccolo should know since he trained with Goku.
Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
That could be because ssj has a distinct feel to it, not the amount of power, though I do agree the amount of power should be close. But Trunks said that against the future androids he was able to hold his own, since they were weaker than the present androids, so that means they weren't that far ahead of the Trunks Piccolo sensed in the first place, plus Piccolo thought they might be weaker in this timeline, which was on the mark and all the androids were different strengths. 19,20<future 17,18<present 17,18. Though I will agree Piccolo could be above 100% Frieza, I just don't think he was. But I more strongly believe that initial 19/20 are below 100% Frieza, while some people think even they are above.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:35 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: But we are not talking about the power of the attack here, but of it's cutting properties, who were never shown to be manipulated.
The weaker something is the harder it is to cut something. For example a blade made of something hard and something bridle can have the exact same sharpness, but the brittle thing will break on something the hard thing won't. So logically if a kienzan had a low enough amount of energy it would smash apart after hitting something with enough force.
Tenshinhan was astonished by standing still Sick Goku too, though.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
The problem with that statement is it implies Tien never saw or felt a ssj before. It's just a weird statement.
Why he doesn't stand a chance? Freeza was completely unharmed by Enraged Gohan's attacks and did a power up to utterly stomp Gohan, despite tanking a blast on the back from Vegeta. There is no way in hell Vegeta belives things are getting better if Gohan still nothing compared to this Freeza. Gohan was also going to fight Freeza with Vegeta on the backseats praising his power as well.
I already said excluding rage Gohan. Gohan<<<Vegeta<<enraged Gohan<<2nd form Frieza
It wasn't implied Piccolo + Nail was stronger, it was shown. Piccolo merged with Nail was slightly stronger than 2nd form Freeza, while it's not even certain if Kamiccolo can take 1st form Freeza. And is 17 more than 10 times stronger than Piccolo? Because fusing with Kami only placed Piccolo equal with 17 on the Android Arc, while on the Freeza Arc Kamiccolo would be a tidbit stronger than 1st form Freeza.
There could be other variables at play here, for example how much of Piccolo's latent potential has already been drawn out. After the 3 years of training for the androids he may of been closer to his limit than he was before so fussing with Kami may of given a smaller boost because of that.
But the real reason is
[spoiler]Whenever Piccolo fusses with someone he becomes as strong as he needs to be[/spoiler]

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Noah » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:29 pm

New match:

- Beerus & Whis vs. All 80 fighters in the Tournament Of Power
乃亜

Dragon Ball: The Others Discussion Thread

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:42 pm

Noah wrote:New match:

- Beerus & Whis vs. All 80 fighters in the Tournament Of Power
It's a slaughter. They kill them all. The only real threats are Goku, Vegeta, Hit, Frieza, Toppo, and Jiren. If it was just Beerus. He would lose if he had to fight all of them by himself. But I imagine no matter how powerful Jiren or Goku are. They ain't nothing to Whis. Whis quickly karate chops the mvps of those universes and throws them out of the ring. Before they even knew what happened to them. While Beerus one or two shots everyone with same method and then simply blows them away out of the ring. Similar to what he did to sidra's hakai power.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Animelover5487 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:53 pm

Raditz vs Caway

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ahill1 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:58 pm

A pretty good video regarding who between Goku and Vegeta from the androids saga is the strongest.


https://youtu.be/168_1R_UnSE

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:08 am

Animelover5487 wrote:Raditz vs Caway
Probably Raditz. Caway was really pathetic. Her final attack was trying to be sexy...

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:07 pm

Noah wrote:New match:

- Beerus & Whis vs. All 80 fighters in the Tournament Of Power
Whis solos.

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