Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[AvatarReiko]

So how high would you guy rank a hypothetical Ultra Instinct Vegito? Surely he would have to be on par if not stronger than the angels?

[LowRyder2005]

So how high would you guy rank a hypothetical Ultra Instinct Vegito? Surely he would have to be on par if not stronger than the angels?

You mean Jiren with the multiplier Goku obtained? Both factors looks so inherently absurd that he should probably be the absolute strongest in the entire cosmogony that's been laid up until this point. You're talking about multiplying someone who's already above anyone seen thus far, bar the angels and Gods, likely hundreds of thousands of times or more.

[Cetra]

So how high would you guy rank a hypothetical Ultra Instinct Vegito? Surely he would have to be on par if not stronger than the angels?

You mean Jiren with the multiplier Goku obtained? Both factors looks so inherently absurd that he should probably be the absolute strongest in the entire cosmogony that's been laid up until this point. You're talking about multiplying someone who's already above anyone seen thus far, bar the angels and Gods, likely hundreds of thousands of times or more.

?

He asked for Vegetto, not Jiren.

[LowRyder2005]

So how high would you guy rank a hypothetical Ultra Instinct Vegito? Surely he would have to be on par if not stronger than the angels?

You mean Jiren with the multiplier Goku obtained? Both factors looks so inherently absurd that he should probably be the absolute strongest in the entire cosmogony that's been laid up until this point. You're talking about multiplying someone who's already above anyone seen thus far, bar the angels and Gods, likely hundreds of thousands of times or more.

?

He asked for Vegetto, not Jiren.

My bad. No idea on why I read it that way. But yeah, the same applies to Vegito. I don't see him and Jiren that far apart; in fact, Jiren being above Zamas doesn't mean he should technically be above SSB Vegito (per se); at the end of the fight Vegito still thinks he can obliterate Zamas and he's basically just about to do it.
Then again, Jiren could easily be revealed to be using only a fraction of his power, cementing the idea he's also above Vegito.

[Sora Saiyan]

Btw Toei did an amazing job at actually stopping strength debates with Jiren to an extent. Thank god Shin confirmed that he's stronger than any of the warriors that he's sensed. Takes a lot of the guess work out of comparing him to Vegetto, Zamasu, GD Trunks and all that.

[Cetra]

You mean Jiren with the multiplier Goku obtained? Both factors looks so inherently absurd that he should probably be the absolute strongest in the entire cosmogony that's been laid up until this point. You're talking about multiplying someone who's already above anyone seen thus far, bar the angels and Gods, likely hundreds of thousands of times or more.

?

He asked for Vegetto, not Jiren.

My bad. No idea on why I read it that way. But yeah, the same applies to Vegito. I don't see him and Jiren that far apart; in fact, Jiren being above Zamas doesn't mean he should technically be above SSB Vegito (per se); at the end of the fight Vegito still thinks he can obliterate Zamas and he's basically just about to do it.
Then again, Jiren could easily be revealed to be using only a fraction of his power, cementifying the idea he's also above Vegito.

However, in truth I cannot see how or if Jiren is truly above Vegetto and/or Zamasu. They both had this really incomprehensible power as well. Yeah, Vegetto was pushing Giant Zamasu around for a bit and Goku managed to kick Zamasu to the ground, even damage his face a tiny bit but both Zamasu's durability as well as his strength - at least in the anime - never had found a real master that he could do nothing against (when he was at his best while not being Universal). And when he was becoming Universal he became ultimate invincible cheat mode anyway. I think this is the point where all four of them are just "truly ridiculous".

[LowRyder2005]

Btw Toei did an amazing job at actually stopping strength debates with Jiren to an extent. Thank god Shin confirmed that he's stronger than any of the warriors that he's sensed. Takes a lot of the guess work out of comparing him to Vegetto, Zamasu, GD Trunks and all that.

For the record, Kaioshin says he's something else compared to anyone "they" have ever *faced*. Which means he's stronger than anyone out of their enemies; the good guys and Vegito, by extension, are technically factored out of the equation in itself.

[Legion]

Goku is still not above Jiren or the Gods for now .-. And Jiren did not use his full power.

[AvatarReiko]

Btw Toei did an amazing job at actually stopping strength debates with Jiren to an extent. Thank god Shin confirmed that he's stronger than any of the warriors that he's sensed. Takes a lot of the guess work out of comparing him to Vegetto, Zamasu, GD Trunks and all that.

Shin never sensed Vegito, though :I

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The Crunchyroll subs called this new state "Ultra Instinct". It allows someone to fight without thinking, without needing to use their body, at speeds and power that allow him/her to surpass even Gods of Destruction in terms of martial arts ability. According to what I've read on other forums, this is based on certain real-world martial arts principles of "involuntary martial arts", or something like that. Think of it like Wuxia fighting ability, not based on power level but on skill, allowing one to take on ANYONE regardless of power difference thanks to its mystical qualities of fighting prowess.

As well, Whis basically confirmed that Jiren is indeed the mortal whose power rivals or possibly even surpasses a God of Destruction, and we also now know that SSB/Kaio-kenX20 is nothing to the power of a God of Destruction.

Also, when Goku was fighting Ribrianne, he said he'd release more power and continues to fight in base form before giving her a stern sucker-kick using SSB. My train of thought is that the absolutely serious no-nonsense full-power base level of someone like Goku and Vegeta is super strong, equal to Final Form Freeza as they really should be.

[TheMikado]

The Crunchyroll subs called this new state "Ultra Instinct". It allows someone to fight without thinking, without needing to use their body, at speeds and power that allow him/her to surpass even Gods of Destruction in terms of martial arts ability. According to what I've read on other forums, this is based on certain real-world martial arts principles of "involuntary martial arts", or something like that. Think of it like Wuxia fighting ability, not based on power level but on skill, allowing one to take on ANYONE regardless of power difference thanks to its mystical qualities of fighting prowess.

As well, Whis basically confirmed that Jiren is indeed the mortal whose power rivals or possibly even surpasses a God of Destruction, and we also now know that SSB/Kaio-kenX20 is nothing to the power of a God of Destruction.

Also, when Goku was fighting Ribrianne, he said he'd release more power and continues to fight in base form before giving her a stern sucker-kick using SSB. My train of thought is that the absolutely serious no-nonsense full-power base level of someone like Goku and Vegeta is super strong, equal to Final Form Freeza as they really should be.

Yes it’s based on a real martial arts discipline but it doesn’t magically make you stronger which is why it’s dumb. The core principle is that it would allow to react and counter to any attack meaning a bigger and stronger fight could be taken down by using both precision and momentum base attacks where you use the enemies own power against them. It’s a basic martial arts principle that anyone who has taken a single class would recognize. The problem is it doesn’t magically make you stronger just able to counter act. Nothing about mastery of the technique itself makes you stronger.

[Saturnine]

You mean Jiren with the multiplier Goku obtained? Both factors looks so inherently absurd that he should probably be the absolute strongest in the entire cosmogony that's been laid up until this point. You're talking about multiplying someone who's already above anyone seen thus far, bar the angels and Gods, likely hundreds of thousands of times or more.

?

He asked for Vegetto, not Jiren.

My bad. No idea on why I read it that way. But yeah, the same applies to Vegito. I don't see him and Jiren that far apart; in fact, Jiren being above Zamas doesn't mean he should technically be above SSB Vegito (per se); at the end of the fight Vegito still thinks he can obliterate Zamas and he's basically just about to do it.
Then again, Jiren could easily be revealed to be using only a fraction of his power, cementing the idea he's also above Vegito.

Still, I don't think this would work as a multiplier as much as just putting you at a certain level - probably above the GoDs but below the angels. Think of it as "set power to x" rather than "multiply power by y".

Also, when Goku was fighting Ribrianne, he said he'd release more power and continues to fight in base form before giving her a stern sucker-kick using SSB. My train of thought is that the absolutely serious no-nonsense full-power base level of someone like Goku and Vegeta is super strong, equal to Final Form Freeza as they really should be.

You mean current Final Form Freeza? Because I'm fairly certain they've surpassed Namek Freeza's 120 million in base quite a while ago just due to training gains, even if you completely disregard any potential Saiyan Beyond God shenanigans. I will agree though, Base Goku's feats in this episode made me think that he might probably be tapping into that sort of power again, but then he went SSj and even freaking SSj God - yeah, tehse tiers of power are definitely meant to be considered separate as of right now.

[MisteryOne]

Btw Toei did an amazing job at actually stopping strength debates with Jiren to an extent. Thank god Shin confirmed that he's stronger than any of the warriors that he's sensed. Takes a lot of the guess work out of comparing him to Vegetto, Zamasu, GD Trunks and all that.

Shin never sensed Vegito, though :I

Wait, what?

[Helios518]

Btw Toei did an amazing job at actually stopping strength debates with Jiren to an extent. Thank god Shin confirmed that he's stronger than any of the warriors that he's sensed. Takes a lot of the guess work out of comparing him to Vegetto, Zamasu, GD Trunks and all that.

I'm not doubting you but may I get the time-stamp and episode in where Shin said this?

[Sora Saiyan]

Btw Toei did an amazing job at actually stopping strength debates with Jiren to an extent. Thank god Shin confirmed that he's stronger than any of the warriors that he's sensed. Takes a lot of the guess work out of comparing him to Vegetto, Zamasu, GD Trunks and all that.

For the record, Kaioshin says he's something else compared to anyone "they" have ever *faced*. Which means he's stronger than anyone out of their enemies; the good guys and Vegito, by extension, are technically factored out of the equation in itself.

Yes, that is true. It's just that with Whis saying Jiren seems to be far from his full power just prior I'd place him handily above Vegetto Blue, and M Zamasu. Also I didn't really have much of a gap between M Zamasu and Vegetto in the anime. It does seem he's gonna be above Vegetto comfortably, being far from his full power, and above Zamasu must surely put him few notches higher. But saying that, I'm holding out for the manga to say something on it, since Vegetto's compared to Beerus in power I would love for him to remain as top dog out of the mortals. I'm a Vegetto fan boy.

Btw Toei did an amazing job at actually stopping strength debates with Jiren to an extent. Thank god Shin confirmed that he's stronger than any of the warriors that he's sensed. Takes a lot of the guess work out of comparing him to Vegetto, Zamasu, GD Trunks and all that.

Shin never sensed Vegito, though :I

He must've, Trunks did and Shin was there with them in the future.

[Sora Saiyan]

Btw Toei did an amazing job at actually stopping strength debates with Jiren to an extent. Thank god Shin confirmed that he's stronger than any of the warriors that he's sensed. Takes a lot of the guess work out of comparing him to Vegetto, Zamasu, GD Trunks and all that.

I'm not doubting you but may I get the time-stamp and episode in where Shin said this?

Sorry, I messed up. At about 4:50 Whis says Goku's at the "limit of his limits" "Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from his full power", and then Shin follows up with "This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before."

[Jigurashi]

The NEP also shows Hit getting his ass kick by Jiren. Like... that fight is so one-sided, it's almost unfair. Hit is so gonna get stomped next week. Hell, you literally see it in the preview.

I lol'd hard at Jiren literally stomping Hitto.

[apex_pretador]

So, these episodes were interesting

- Ribanne seems to be goofing around while fighting base goku who is at a disadvantage. She transforms but goku doesn't. However, when she uses a serious attack, Goku goes blue and one-shots her, who is only saved due to colliding with Jiren otherwise she'd have been ring-out.
- She also seems to fight base vegeta even though we already saw her fight SS Vegeta. Does that meen she was using less power, or vegeta was not serious then? Anyways she is not above SS2 that's for sure.

- Jiren doesn't even need to lift a finger against anything less than SSG Goku, but needs to lift a finger against SSG. Blue forces him to do more than lift a finger.
- Hit forces Jiren to block. Hit seems above non-kaioken blue.
- Goku goes kaioken x20 and only mildly discomforts Jiren.
- Jiren's "pushing" can overpower Goku's pushing with one hand until Goku goes x10. Goku x20 forces jiren to exert significant effort even though accoding to whis, jiren was nowhere near full power.

- Freeza seems to not be worried by anything. Perhaps he has something in store.

- Jiren seems to be almost even with cat-goku, but cat-goku had a slight advantage according to belmood.

- The "mortal stronger than GoDs" was just a rumour according to whis which "seems to be true". Jiren seems to be above most GoD's, even if slightly.

- Beerus was worried, enraged, pissed only after he saw goku transforming into cat-goku. Champa was outright scared.

- Goku absorbed the power of spirit bomb

- @18 can't see while Piccolo and base gohan can. I hope this puts "piccolo/base gohan weaker than @18" to rest

- Too many semi-obvious hints for Jiren >= an average God of Destruction. Also, Jiren was stated to be able to "use opponent's energy" or something.

[Bullza]

Also notice that when Goku progressed through the forms from Base to Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, there was no second Base Goku or Saiyan Beyond God Goku that appeared between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan God.

Which again would have been another perfect opportunity to show it exists.

[LowRyder2005]

- 18 can't see while Piccolo and base gohan can. I hope this puts "piccolo/base gohan weaker than 18" to rest

I seriously doubt there was some big idea behind the "can/can't see". Base Vegeta also says he can't see Jiren, so I guess Piccolo and base Gohan are stronger than him as well according to you. You seem to be into your full "search for validation mode" as usual, especially considering there's plenty of room to put #18 above base Goku already.

Besides, technically speaking, it's not like we know how far they all were from the battlefield; it might have been just harder for some to see what was happening compared to others.

P.S. I'm not even 100% sure there's a clear nod to Piccolo and Gohan actually seeing what's happening. What I recall is that they don't give a "can't follow their movements" comment.

EDIT: Yeah, not only there's no clear indication they are actually following the fight, but at least Piccolo seems as clueless as everyone else with a "what happened?" right after Goku gets blitzed at high speed. q.e.d.