Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

Also notice that when Goku progressed through the forms from Base to Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, there was no second Base Goku or Saiyan Beyond God Goku that appeared between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan God.

Which again would have been another perfect opportunity to show it exists.

He also didn't show off Super Saiyan 3, what's your point?

And we all know that the form doesn't actually exist in-universe, how do people still not get this? It's a fanon explanation for bad powerscalling.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

He does go from God to something that looks like base in order to transition into Blue.

[TheMikado]

Also notice that when Goku progressed through the forms from Base to Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, there was no second Base Goku or Saiyan Beyond God Goku that appeared between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan God.

Which again would have been another perfect opportunity to show it exists.

He also didn't show off Super Saiyan 3, what's your point?

And we all know that the form doesn't actually exist in-universe, how do people still not get this? It's a fanon explanation for bad powerscalling.

Technically Saiyan beyond God was featured as a form in one of the video games so that's where fans got the idea, because and official authorized source presented it as such.

[LowRyder2005]

He does go from God to something that looks like base in order to transition into Blue.

Indeed he does, in the sense that instead of going Blue "on top" of God he reverts to his base form. Truth be told it's absolutely random, though. We have literally seen him transitioning from basically every type of Super Saiyan (God included, just a handful of episodes before this one) to Blue.

[ekrolo2]

Also notice that when Goku progressed through the forms from Base to Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, there was no second Base Goku or Saiyan Beyond God Goku that appeared between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan God.

Which again would have been another perfect opportunity to show it exists.

He also didn't show off Super Saiyan 3, what's your point?

And we all know that the form doesn't actually exist in-universe, how do people still not get this? It's a fanon explanation for bad powerscalling.

Technically Saiyan beyond God was featured as a form in one of the video games so that's where fans got the idea, because and official authorized source presented it as such.

Official authorized source also removed it when Blue came out, Goku can't transform from Base into SBG anymore, it's been replaced by Blue which SBG was essentially a placeholder for.

[Lord Frieza]

Well I think we can offially confirm that the Zero Mortal Plan was had not gone beyond U7. Zamasu may have survived but Black would have been oblitarated by Jiren in the blink of an eye.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well I think we can offially confirm that the Zero Mortal Plan was had not gone beyond U7. Zamasu may have survived but Black would have been oblitarated by Jiren in the blink of an eye.

Well, they at least killed all the Kaioshin, which killed the Gods of Destruction, which "deactivated" the Angels.

[Shlugo]

Ribrianne is not as strong as some people though. While before it could be argued she's holding back against Base Goku, but that line of though holds little merit now, seeing as how she transforms into a stronger form and still can't really overwhelm Goku. She seemed pretty serious about wanting to defeat him too, so trying to argue that she transformed only to use less power than in her weaker form would be rather inane.



Jiren is a beast among beasts, the mortal stronger than Gods of Destruction and it shows. Goku SSBKK x 20 wasn't even close to matching his suppressed power, and he could even stand up to Goku Ultra Instinct form, through he seemed to be getting overwhelmed by the end.



Goku Ultra Instinct form was insane. From what Whis said it seems that clashing with his own Genki Dama broke Goku through his "Shell" which I think means his mental and physical limitations. That would explain both his power increase and the sudden mastery of "Moving Without Thinking" which even Gods of Destruction have problems mastering. He also seemed to be steadily getting stronger during the fight, and even overwhelmed Jiren by the end, until he run out the energy he took from Genki Dama.


So yeah, we finally have two characters (Jiren and Goku) who reached the level of Gods of Destruction. And we'll probably seem more from them before the tournament is over.

[mahakaishin1991]

Well I think we can offially confirm that the Zero Mortal Plan was had not gone beyond U7. Zamasu may have survived but Black would have been oblitarated by Jiren in the blink of an eye.

I'm not convinced of this to be honest, at least in context with merged Zamasu. In fact, I'm not convinced anyone in this tournament in terms of raw strength can take Future Zamasu or Vegito Blue.

[Lord Frieza]

Well I think we can offially confirm that the Zero Mortal Plan was had not gone beyond U7. Zamasu may have survived but Black would have been oblitarated by Jiren in the blink of an eye.

Well, they at least killed all the Kaioshin, which killed the Gods of Destruction, which "deactivated" the Angels.

Oh that I dont daught, they teleported around and killed the kaioshin, which in tern got ride of the GoD and the Angels. But they cannot have made any assult on U11 with warriors like Dyspo, Toppo and above all Jiren being there. Even with most of the other fighters not being Blue level all the other universes also had some form of defence plus Black was yet to master Goku's body. U7 made the ideal starting point because all its powerful warriors besides Trunk were long dead along with all the gods. All that made it a prime candidate as a starting point.

[Marlowe89]

Goku is still not above Jiren

The dialogue and visuals both implied that Goku lost to Jiren due to Ultra Instinct expiring, not necessarily because he was weaker per se. Jiren may not have been using his full strength, but the characters also mentioned that Goku was gradually becoming stronger while in his new form as well. We actually don't know how they match up in full yet, and likely won't receive any further clarification until the final battle of the tournament.

I'm tentatively placing Jiren above Ultra Instinct Goku for now, but that could easily become reversed when/if Goku learns to master that state.

Indeed he does, in the sense that instead of going Blue "on top" of God he reverts to his base form. Truth be told it's absolutely random, though. We have literally seen him transitioning from basically every type of Super Saiyan (God included, just a handful of episodes before this one) to Blue.

He also transitioned to Super Saiyan God from the yellow forms in this episode, which I thought was interesting because that happened a couple of times in the manga as well.

Coupling that with the Japanese Super Saiyan guide I've previously brought to light, this leads me to believe that Super Saiyan God really might be a literal progression of the previous Super Saiyan forms -- Goku simply wasn't capable of reaching that form the natural way at first, so he needed the ritual to obtain it initially.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You guys wanna hear a joke?

Technically speaking, Goku is ACTUALLY a "Saiyan Beyond God" now when he utilizes the Ultra Instinct

[Marlowe89]

Technically speaking, Goku is ACTUALLY a "Saiyan Beyond God" now when he utilizes the Ultra Instinct

I had that thought myself. It's basically the closest we'll ever get to an actual, official in-universe version of two bases.

[Lord Frieza]

Well I think we can offially confirm that the Zero Mortal Plan was had not gone beyond U7. Zamasu may have survived but Black would have been oblitarated by Jiren in the blink of an eye.

I'm not convinced of this to be honest, at least in context with merged Zamasu. In fact, I'm not convinced anyone in this tournament in terms of raw strength can take Future Zamasu or Vegito Blue.

Really? Whats not to be conviced by? I never even mentiond Merged Zamasu, Black and Zamasu were still to individuals and Black not even attained Rose, hell he hadn't even begun to sense ki until not long befor Trunks time traveled. Had they have gone there they would have been horrificly out matched.

As for the Jiren vs Merged Zamasu debate well Zamasu was weaker then Black, Goku or Vegeta, so his fusion is logically noticable weaker then Vegito. Plus Goku had not had time to work on his SSBKK at that time so he shore as hell was not using SSBKKx20 when he sent Zamasu flying, a Zamasu who was both inraged and saw the attack coming, While Jiren tanked multiple attacks from Goku using kkx10 and barly flinched. So take from that what you will. Also the anime has not clarified exactly how powerful SSB Vegito, and by extention, Zamasu (Half Corrupted) are in comparison to Beerus. Even if they are strong as the manga made Vegito out to be, the anime practicly stated that Jiren was the rumured mortal who's power surpassed a GoD who beat beat Beerus at arm wrestling, a test of strength. Hell its evenstated that Jiren was not even trying against Goku until his new from and even then Goku has done no battle damage to Jiren, with Jiren only stateing that "Saiyans are intreasting" and displayed no hint of fear. He'll we still dont know if Jiren is even going all out. Also Goku is growing more powerful as well.

So really while nothing can be said who can beat who right now, what we know of Jiren and Goku easily puts them on their level.

Goku is still not above Jiren

The dialogue and visuals both implied that Goku lost to Jiren due to Ultra Instinct expiring, not necessarily because he was weaker per se. Jiren may not have been using his full strength, but the characters also mentioned that Goku was gradually becoming stronger while in his new form as well. We actually don't know how they match up in full yet, and likely won't receive any further clarification until the final battle of the tournament.

I'm tentatively placing Jiren above Ultra Instinct Goku for now, but that could easily become reversed when/if Goku learns to master that state.

Have to agree, its to hard to make an accurte assessment until Goku gets an unresticted fight with Jiren.

[pacz360]

Did belmond confirm jiren was that mortal just want to be sure
Where would ssjb vegito and m.zamasu monster form fall in the GOD OF DESTRUCTION level?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Did belmond confirm jiren was that mortal just want to be sure
Where would ssjb vegito and m.zamasu monster form fall in the GOD OF DESTRUCTION level?

I'd say put them exactly as strong as most Gods of Destruction, just to be safe.

Whis himself says that the rumour of a mortal that rivals or even surpasses a God of Destruction is true after seeing Jiren absolutely murk Goku. Not much else to be said on that matter.

[Sora Saiyan]

Did belmond confirm jiren was that mortal just want to be sure
Where would ssjb vegito and m.zamasu monster form fall in the GOD OF DESTRUCTION level?

No, I don't think he did, but he did say that there isn't anybody that can defeat Jiren.. or something like that anyway. Obviously that's not true.

And that all depends on where Jiren is placed currently.
Jiren's power atm is above M Zamasu, and we know he's holding back a lot. So really it all depends if Jiren only tops/equals Gods of destruction when he gets serious, or if he's at their level now.
So the short answer is they're way below, or closing in on a GoD, but, I don't think they're equal.

[Rhuagh]

Well I think we can offially confirm that the Zero Mortal Plan was had not gone beyond U7. Zamasu may have survived but Black would have been oblitarated by Jiren in the blink of an eye.

Unless Jiren can survive in space or teleport, the good old Freeza move will still kill him.

[Bullza]

Watching the episode with subs now.

1. Even though the Ribrianne fight is odd, I don't think she was holding back perse and it was just that Goku probably did better than expected. He's clearly not as strong because he was running away and he did feel the need to turn Blue.

So far I'd say it looks like

Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Super Ribrianne > Ribrianne = Android 17 > Super Saiyan Gohan > Jimizu > Base Gohan.

2. You actually get to see the difference in strength between God and Blue probably more than anything since he fought Hit in the manga in this episode. Super Saiyan God couldn't even move Jiren and blocked all his attacks with a finger.

Super Saiyan Blue however did send him flying through rocks and that was when Jiren full on put his guard up. He also tangled with him a little bit so I'd say Blue is significantly stronger than God, more so than I thought it was anyway.

3. Jiren also wasn't using his full power when he stomped Goku with the Kaioken x20 so this new from of Goku's must be tens of times stronger than Blue.

[Simere]

Did belmond confirm jiren was that mortal just want to be sure
Where would ssjb vegito and m.zamasu monster form fall in the GOD OF DESTRUCTION level?

I'd say put them exactly as strong as most Gods of Destruction, just to be safe.

Whis himself says that the rumour of a mortal that rivals or even surpasses a God of Destruction is true after seeing Jiren absolutely murk Goku. Not much else to be said on that matter.

He said that it "appears" to be true.