Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Helios518]

3. Jiren also wasn't using his full power when he stomped Goku with the Kaioken x20 so this new from of Goku's must be tens of times stronger than Blue.

To add on to this. If you believe that Geran surpasses or is equal with SSJB Vegetto then that makes Ultra Instinct at least 100s of times stronger than SSJB.

[Lord Frieza]

Did belmond confirm jiren was that mortal just want to be sure
Where would ssjb vegito and m.zamasu monster form fall in the GOD OF DESTRUCTION level?

No, I don't think he did, but he did say that there isn't anybody that can defeat Jiren.. or something like that anyway. Obviously that's not true.

And that all depends on where Jiren is placed currently.
Jiren's power atm is above M Zamasu, and we know he's holding back a lot. So really it all depends if Jiren only tops/equals Gods of destruction when he gets serious, or if he's at their level now.
So the short answer is they're way below, or closing in on a GoD, but, I don't think they're equal.

Not out right but he dose make an intreasting statment during the fight.

Just after Goku goes Blue, the U11 gods talk amoung themselbes and Marcareta as if they should still be careful, in responce Belmod stated that you they cannot disscuse Jiren in such "practical terms".

"Jiren is a being who will never lose. No matter who he's up aganist".

Later in Whis retiterates the rumour he had heard about a being even a GoD cannot defeat and looks over to Belmod saying "guessed the rumour was true".

That coupled with Beeru's own disbileif that such power is only coming from one person and well as how genuinlly shocked and unerved he looks, a look that puts his shock at SSBKK to shame, all really adds weight to it.

So while stated out right the hints practacticly do so.

Edit: To add to this....

Belmod stated that the Genki Dama had him worried for a bit but to Jiren its nothing.

Whis states the Jiren appears to be far from Full Power.

Edit 2

Whis's exact words in the sub are....

"I daresay like a God of Destruction. He is the one who has reached that state. Purhaps even surpassed it. There is a universe were lives a mortal even a God of Destruction cannot defeat. It appears the rumour was true."

If thats not a point blank statment I dont know what is.

[Zamasu55]

3. Jiren also wasn't using his full power when he stomped Goku with the Kaioken x20 so this new from of Goku's must be tens of times stronger than Blue.

To add on to this. If you believe that Geran surpasses or is equal with SSJB Vegetto then that makes Ultra Instinct at least 100s of times stronger than SSJB.

And it is.

[Zamasu55]

Well I think we can offially confirm that the Zero Mortal Plan was had not gone beyond U7. Zamasu may have survived but Black would have been oblitarated by Jiren in the blink of an eye.

I'm not convinced of this to be honest, at least in context with merged Zamasu. In fact, I'm not convinced anyone in this tournament in terms of raw strength can take Future Zamasu or Vegito Blue.

Seriously?

[Lord Frieza]

Well I think we can offially confirm that the Zero Mortal Plan was had not gone beyond U7. Zamasu may have survived but Black would have been oblitarated by Jiren in the blink of an eye.

Unless Jiren can survive in space or teleport, the good old Freeza move will still kill him.

Well I dont know about surviving in space but Jiren is the guy shown to have insain levels of awairness, even if they blow up the planet he's almost garantied to to notice befor it can affect him. this is Not Vegeta were talking about.

Also Given his level of power, we have seen that Beerus can fly from his temple to a planet in a matter of moments back in the first arc, so Jiren can likely replicate that feat.

[Bullza]

It's kinda funny seeing how it took 4 episodes for Beerus to finally defeat Super Saiyan God and actually had some trouble here and there.

And then Jiren, not using his full power, uses one finger to completely neutralise Super Saiyan God entirely within seconds.

I suppose if Beerus really had used his 100% power then he could have done the same. Just shows how much he was holding back during that fight.

[LowRyder2005]

3. Jiren also wasn't using his full power when he stomped Goku with the Kaioken x20 so this new from of Goku's must be tens of times stronger than Blue.

To add on to this. If you believe that Geran surpasses or is equal with SSJB Vegetto then that makes Ultra Instinct at least 100s of times stronger than SSJB.

And it is.

No, not necessarily. We only know Vegito needs to be above SS3 Goku from the Buu arc. The Potara fusion of Goku and Vegeta could generally possess a fixed power without acting as a multiplication, especially if you assume Goku and Vegeta haven't surpassed Vegito's original strength yet; which would probably justify we he doesn't perform that much better than SSB + KK * x Goku against Zamas.

Secondly, Krillin (let's leave aside how he can make this call, for the moment) clarifies that a Kaioken increase over a Kaioken already accessible to Goku (up to 10) would roughly put him on par with the Jiren he's seeing. This means that the Jiren seen so far could go anywhere from 40 (assuming Krillin is confusing Kaioken * 20 with KK * 10) to 400 times stronger than Blue (if Krillin thinks Goku is using the regular Kaioken). The same obviously applies to the current form. This type of range obviously encompasses factors above one hundred, but also some well below them.

[Bullza]

Actually wouldn't Jiren be drastically above Merged Zamasu just based on how each handled the Spirit Bomb?

Merged Zamasu was done in by Super Saiyan Rage Trunks and the power of a Spirit Bomb made up of a hundred or so humans and the power given to him by a weakened Goku and Vegeta.

Jiren meanwhile overpowered a much bigger Spirit Bomb made by the strongest beings in Universe 7 and was pushed by Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20.

[LowRyder2005]

Actually wouldn't Jiren be drastically above Merged Zamasu just based on how each handled the Spirit Bomb?

Merged Zamasu was done in by Super Saiyan Rage Trunks and the power of a Spirit Bomb made up of a hundred or so humans and the power given to him by a weakened Goku and Vegeta.

Jiren meanwhile overpowered a much bigger Spirit Bomb made by the strongest beings in Universe 7 and was pushed by Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20.

The Genki Dama has always appeared to be a quantity over quality technique: the Buu saga makes it kind of clear by visually rendering the genki scattered on Earth and Hell many times the size of that of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo and the others on the Lookout. If anything, what's strange is this relatively novel implication that Goku could've made a "powerful" Genki Dama with the energy/genki of a few individuals in a world of "Void", in which he can't get the energy of beings like plants, the Sun, etc.

Maybe he can just make a "relatively powerful" Genki Dama with the genki of few powerful people, but to make it a really powerful one you need many hundreds/thousands of individuals. Or maybe the rationale behind it was that he could add more power with Blue + KK * 20. A more powerful blow than his strongest Kamehameha, to surmise. Still, I wouldn't compare the Genki Dama used against Zamas and the one used here to make any kind of logical deduction.

[ZombieVito]

Watching the episode with subs now.

1. Even though the Ribrianne fight is odd, I don't think she was holding back perse and it was just that Goku probably did better than expected. He's clearly not as strong because he was running away and he did feel the need to turn Blue.

So far I'd say it looks like

Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Super Ribrianne > Ribrianne = Android 17 > Super Saiyan Gohan > Jimizu > Base Gohan.

How is this possible when she couldn't even beat base Goku and even base Vegeta trashed her?

Jiren = Ultra Goku > Quitela > Beerus ~ SSB Vegetto > Fused Zamasu.

I do wonder if Zamasu is stronger than Vegetto when he gets big. He does tank the Final Kamehameha after all.

I guess at this point Jiren and Goku are so ridiculously strong that Zamasu only was better when he was universal and only beatable by Zen-Oh? Anime Zamasu, of course.

Yes.

Infinite Zamasu was so ridiculous OP in the anime than not even the GP could beat him.

Fused Zamasu is really strong though. He's GoD tier once he injures himself with his LoJ. I'm starting to think he is stronger than Beerus when he bulks up.

[Sora Saiyan]

Just a thought I had, but I was trying to scale how Jiren handled the Genki Dama by comparing him to Buu. I will say now, I don't follow this at all, just spit-balling.

SSJ Goku against pure Buu could push the GD down with hardly any effort, a warrior 8x stronger than himself. Against Jiren, with KKX20, It wasn't really going anywhere for him. Once Jiren got a little more serious he was doing a much better job pushing back the GD than Pure Buu was against a weakened base Goku (wasn't he pushing it back with his eyes). Jiren over 400x stronger than SSJBKKx20 confirmed.

[Shlugo]

After rewatching the fight, it seems to me that Goku new form is yet incomplete and the limiting factor is the "heat" that was mentioned by both Whis and Jiren. Of course it's not totally clear what "heat" is supposed to mean in this context, but it'll probably be elaborated on later.

[BlueVegerot]

Goku going to SSB vs Ribrianne means absolutely nothing. He's used blue like 7 times in this tournament even against the likes of Trio de Danger, Kunshee and Maji Kayo. Ribrianne couldn't even land a solid blow on Base Goku.

I would still say SSB Vegito > Jiren. It was stated that Base form Vegito >>> SSJ3 Goku so you are talking about hundreds of times over. So SSB Vegito would be like SSB KKx400+ Goku. Then you can stack x20 kaioken on top of that for Vegito. Jiren is way stronger than Goku but so is Vegito

[Bullza]

How is this possible when she couldn't even beat base Goku and even base Vegeta trashed her?

Well it shouldn't be. Vegeta just caught her off guard so that's not so much an issue.

In the end though, Vegeta did transform for her, Android 17 was pretty serious against her, Goku ran from her and turned Super Saiyan Blue for her and the others did say earlier that she was powerful and could win the whole thing.

So she ain't weak. It is odd how the fight went but I'd chalk that up to just being a bit odd.

[BlueVegerot]

Goku didn't "run from her" he was dodging her attacks. Goku actually got more blows on her than she did on him in base form. Going Blue means literally nothing unless you think Kunshee, Krillin, Maji Kayo, etc are SSB level fighters

[Marlowe89]

2. You actually get to see the difference in strength between God and Blue probably more than anything since he fought Hit in the manga in this episode. Super Saiyan God couldn't even move Jiren and blocked all his attacks with a finger.

In fact, every variety or "color" of Super Saiyan had a different effect on Jiren.

With Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, Jiren literally stood completely motionless and wasn't even scratched by Goku's barrage of attacks. With Super Saiyan God, Jiren was at least forced to guard even if his effort in doing so was minimal -- this implies that SSG Goku might have been able to inflict some slight damage if his attacks connected. With Super Saiyan Blue, Jiren was actually starting to fight back even though we know he obviously wasn't at full power.

There didn't appear to be that much of a gap between God and Blue at first in the series, but ever since Goku and Vegeta were implied to improve the latter form during the Black arc, there's most likely a much more significant difference between them now.

[TheSaiyanGod]

In this episode it became clear the power difference between God and Blue.

Goku God did not even make Jiren move, who defended all the blows with a finger.
Goku SSB sent Jiren away and traded blows with him, it seemed a whole different level.

Despite this, Jiren proved to be much stronger than Goku SSB KKX20. It was surreal, even exaggerated for me.

Anyway, it was never said that Jiren was holding power. He defeated Goku because the transformation has timed out

[Lord Frieza]

In this episode it became clear the power difference between God and Blue.

Goku God did not even make Jiren move, who defended all the blows with a finger.
Goku SSB sent Jiren away and traded blows with him, it seemed a whole different level.

Despite this, Jiren proved to be much stronger than Goku SSB KKX20. It was surreal, even exaggerated for me.

Anyway, it was never said that Jiren was holding power. He defeated Goku because the transformation has timed out

Yes Jiren is only stated to be holding back during his fight with SSBKKx20 Goku, and by quite a bit suggest by Whis.

However nothing states that Jiren is going "Full Power" agenst Goku's new form either, thats not to say he's still putting zero effert in but he only ever even gets his aura flowing on Goku's last attack.

[BlueVegerot]

Jiren red ki at the end was him starting to get serious in terms of raising his power. When he tanked the SSB KKx20 spirit bomb, whis said he's not even close to his full power.

[Desassina]

Could that red aura be a power leak instead of a power up? Let's say that Jiren had all of his power inside: in case he loses focus, the others will catch up, due to him being less powerful. Kinda like his own version of a completed SSJB. Let's wait and see.