"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

As others have mentioned, the "Mastery of Self-Movement" technique is given much stronger foreshadowing in the manga than in the anime, particularly when observing the arc as a self-contained story. Having the Gods of Destruction participate in the exhibition match instead of Universe 7 and 9 also helps push this whole concept further and provide some much needed build-up for when the new form is finally unveiled.

I don't know, it just seems like the manga is off to a tremendously better start so far than the anime for this arc in particular.

I thought Jiren's introductory scene in the anime was there to foreshadow the technique. Jiren probably has it too, considering how strong he is and how he moves.

Wasn't the whole "moving without thinking" shtick mentioned as far back as the ROF arc in the Super anime?

Yes, and after the Black arc too if I recall correctly (during the filler when Vegeta was training with Whis?), but he was talking about observing the arc as its own self-contained story.

[Lord Beerus]

I thought Jiren's introductory scene in the anime was there to foreshadow the technique. Jiren probably has it too, considering how strong he is and how he moves.

Wasn't the whole "moving without thinking" shtick mentioned as far back as the ROF arc in the Super anime?

Yes, and after the Black arc too if I recall correctly (during the filler when Vegeta was training with Whis?), but he was talking about observing the arc as its own self-contained story.

Ah, I see. Fair enough.

[Dbzk1999]

I thought Jiren's introductory scene in the anime was there to foreshadow the technique. Jiren probably has it too, considering how strong he is and how he moves.

Wasn't the whole "moving without thinking" shtick mentioned as far back as the ROF arc in the Super anime?

Yes, and after the Black arc too if I recall correctly (during the filler when Vegeta was training with Whis?), but he was talking about observing the arc as its own self-contained story.

It was referenced as far back as the BOG arc when goku fought beerus the first time

[micah007]

I understand complaints about Toyo's fight choreography sometimes producing visually boring fights. So with that being said I really hope he brings his A game to the upcoming fights we'll see in the manga, especially Goku vs Jiren after the anime did a phenomenal job.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No one said anything like that. We know exactly what moving without thinking consisted of when Whis first started talking about it. Now it seems to have been redefined into some kind of potential unlock in order to make Goku as “powerful” as Jiren. It’s been redefined as something else without them stating as such entirely for plot convenience.

#17 said that the power gap between Goku & Jiren had closed, and Piccolo said that each of Goku's hits got heavier as he improved. Back in FnF, Whis said that this skill would allow them to avoid any danger, not that it would allow them to defeat any enemy. Being able to move fast doesn't make you strong enough to fight someone that is millions times stronger.

[TheMikado]

OK so this post is going to be long one so bear with me...

After thinking this over for sometime I've come up with several theories, particularly as they pertain to the manga.

The first is that Toriyama loves overarching themes and it looks like Super's story is no exception. I've been incredibly critical of Toriyama starting this leg of the story off with the impossibly high power-levels of Beerus and Gods of Destruction. Ironically taking things to the level of the Gods was Toei's idea, not Toriyama's and I believe he has been secretly trolling Toei the entire time... The fact is I believe Toriyama ALWAYS intended for the Super story to be about internal mastery rather than power.

In BoGs we see Goku reach impossibly high power, so high it cannot even be measured or detected. However at the end of the fight Beerus comments on Goku's skill as a warrior rather than his power and Goku's ability to make it his own.
At the start of RoF we find both Goku and Vegeta training with Whis. We got comments about them training their base levels, mastery of movement without thinking, etc.
Their training was specifically about mastery of their own ki and containment to prevent leakage. In this way they were able to achieve SSB, a combination of a previously mastered form and their new mastery of God ki. Upon fighting Frieza we find he had managed to obtain his Golden form but with one major flaw and defect. Frieza had not MASTERED his form. In his haste to defeat them he had neglected mastery.
Moving to the Future Trunks arc (and I am focusing solely on the manga as the anime deviates considerably in these points) we find a Future Trunks who, rather than achieving SSJ3 has manages to master SSJ2 to the point of being comparable and nearly on par with SSJ3 Goku. Further we do not see Future Trunks obtain a new transformation, rather he learns various unique skills and technique which prove valuable to fighting rather than something directly related to battle power or attacking. Also in this arc we find Vegeta who when defeated by Black initially trains in the RoSaT and comes out having MASTERED SSG and SSB transformations rather than just coming back a lot stronger like the anime. Goku also returns and has a new skill mastery. FSSB. Rather than coming back and stacking more KK numbers on the end of his power he came back with mastery of existing forms as did Vegeta.
Fast forward to this Tournament arc and we see a heavy foreshadowing on the mastery of "Moving without Thinking", in no way is Whis presenting this as a state of power. In fact Whis message to Vegeta was very clear. Mastery of that skill will allow them to avoid any opponent which is also consistent with the wording in the anime. This is what I believe is the end goal. Beerus shows off the skill as he tackles multiple GoDs at once. In no way was it meant to portray Beerus as more powerful and was clear it was to show him at a physical disadvantage against all of them.

Its my personal believe that in the manga it is not supposed to be a transformation but a state of mind and I have a number of ways which I feel it could be implemented.

1) I do not believe Jiren will be that much more powerful than SSB. Goku will still stand no chance, but the gap between Goku and Jiren will be much much smaller in the manga.
2) I do think Goku will gain this mastery and it will not yield a dramatic power boost. I would think of it more as shot of adrenaline rather than exceeding his limits so far beyond what he's capable of.
3) We will see Goku utilize all of his saiyan forms to his advantage.

Ways I would like to see it implemented: An interesting scenario would be to see Goku utilize the mastery of movement without thinking in combination with SSG. Where Goku's body naturally selects the form needed for the situation. This could led to him quickly changing to SSG to dodge attacks while changing to SSB to launch precision attacks or switching to SSJ to conserve stamina. An interesting attack would be multiple successive transformations using the burst of ki from the transformation as propulsion for this attack. Imagine a punch where Goku starts in SSJ and as he throws it successively transforms to SSG and SSB using the explosion of ki from each transformation to increase the momentum and force of the attack when it connects!

What I predict this will ultimately boil down to is Goku's new state of being where the SSJ states essentially merge into one another allowing Goku to access the full potential of each instantaneously without his body transforming. He gains the ability to dodge nearly any attack, and his body instantly recognizes openings in the opponent and strikes with precision timing. He doesn't overwhelm with raw power, but with expert movement and timing.

I know this sounds far-fetched however it seems incredibly clear that in the manga the theme is to achieve and expand through mastery of existing skills rather than new ones or new levels of power. This seems like the end goal from the beginning. That Beerus level of power was always supposed to be unobtainable but that Goku would have the skill to overcome him or any opponent through mastery of self. And I believe the "power" emphasis was a red herring which has had both the fans and some of those producing Super fooled.

[TheMikado]

No one said anything like that. We know exactly what moving without thinking consisted of when Whis first started talking about it. Now it seems to have been redefined into some kind of potential unlock in order to make Goku as “powerful” as Jiren. It’s been redefined as something else without them stating as such entirely for plot convenience.

#17 said that the power gap between Goku & Jiren had closed, and Piccolo said that each of Goku's hits got heavier as he improved. Back in FnF, Whis said that this skill would allow them to avoid any danger, not that it would allow them to defeat any enemy. Being able to move fast doesn't make you strong enough to fight someone that is millions times stronger.

I need to go back and see exactly what 17 said, but it was implied that Goku was stronger with each hit, however I do not believe this was the correct interpretation of how the form should work for the reasons I stated above.

[LightBing]

snip

Great post, it would be great if that was the route followed. I don't think it's that far-fetched taking into account all that transpired in the previous arcs.

Although in my opinion Trunks doesn't fit the theme, I think he didn't get SSJ3 for the same reason Vegeta didn't, it's Goku's exclusive(ignoring Gotenks), his use of alternative skills to help instead of a power up is because Toyotarõ prefers logic and having characters reaching a level previously mentioned as "unimaginable" without proper reason doesn't suit him.

I would just change two details; first the "burst of ki" from transformations, that's a concept that should have been introduced a long time ago if it was supposed to be a thing. Unless a very good explanation was given, it would be a head-scratcher why characters are only talking about this 7 or 8 arcs after transformations were introduced.
The second is how many transformations are inserted, SSJ isn't necessary. Mr.Toriyama prefers simplicity and that's starting to cycling through a lot. SSJG and SSJB like Vegeta did suffixes.

[Miracles]

I doubt half of what was in the anime will be there. We’ve already seen Beerus use the move without thinking technique in the manga and it doesn’t grant him a new form or aura, it’s a legitimate mastery of the technique and I think the manga will follow suit with it being less special and ordinary and people will complain that the manga is boring.

Except the anime treated the "ultra instinct" as a technique. Goku's silver eyed form was separate from that.
The manga is right in treating it as just a skill like the anime.

[OLKv3]

It's pretty obvious from this start that Toyotarõ is going to build up "Ultra Instinct" steadily.

He has Whis saying that once Vegeta masters moving without thinking he can take on anyone. Beerus uses it during the exhibition match with Goku observing. I bet we''ll get glimpses of it throughout the ToP with Goku against other people, like with Trunks in the previous arc and his healing ability which was foreshadowed a few times.

Weirdly I didn't saw people speculating who will win the exhibition match. Make your bets! My bet is Rumoosh, being a Pink humanoid elephant gives you street cred.

The winner will be one of the universes who don't take part in the ToP, since the exhibition match is determining who fights in it

[OLKv3]

I understand complaints about Toyo's fight choreography sometimes producing visually boring fights. So with that being said I really hope he brings his A game to the upcoming fights we'll see in the manga, especially Goku vs Jiren after the anime did a phenomenal job.

Goku vs Frost, Vegeta vs SS Black, and Goku vs Merged Zamasu was pretty good, so hopefully we have that kinda quality.

[TheMikado]

snip

Great post, it would be great if that was the route followed. I don't think it's that far-fetched taking into account all that transpired in the previous arcs.

Although in my opinion Trunks doesn't fit the theme, I think he didn't get SSJ3 for the same reason Vegeta didn't, it's Goku's exclusive(ignoring Gotenks), his use of alternative skills to help instead of a power up is because Toyotarõ prefers logic and having characters reaching a level previously mentioned as "unimaginable" without proper reason doesn't suit him.

I would just change two details; first the "burst of ki" from transformations, that's a concept that should have been introduced a long time ago if it was supposed to be a thing. Unless a very good explanation was given, it would be a head-scratcher why characters are only talking about this 7 or 8 arcs after transformations were introduced.
The second is how many transformations are inserted, SSJ isn't necessary. Mr.Toriyama prefers simplicity and that's starting to cycling through a lot. SSJG and SSJB like Vegeta did suffixes.

The main reason I include Trunks is because both the anime and the manga have a very specific scene that occurs with Goku and Trunks sparring. This implies this was probably consistent in the outline and the specific sequence is almost beat for beat. Trunks and Goku are equal in SSJ2, which is very impressive. In both the manga and anime Goku powers up to SSJ3. This is where it gets weird, in the manga Trunks says he will power up and he does further where he is nearly on par with SSJ3 such that Goku needs SSG. In the anime Trunks also states he will power up to his "Max power" however he hardly powers up at all and Goku defeats him easily in a call back to their original meeting. I think it's obvious that Toriyama's intentions are that when SSJ2 Trunks and Goku are equals, however in response to Goku going SSJ3, Trunks has found a way to power up even more without going SSJ3. This in my opinion all ties back to transformations not be necessary to reach higher levels of power and instead mastery should be emphasized.

As far as the ki burst, it would be completely reliant on being able to quickly switch between SSJ forms. A skill that has only recently been shown to be possible. We know going to SSJ3 would be much too slow a transformation to be effective, and SSJ2 may not be worth the effort. In my opinion it requires a lot of prerequisite skills to be in place in order for the move without thinking and in turn ki burst propulsion to be effective.

1) Mastery of the SSJ forms. The key to this is that the SSJ forms need to be able to be held without consciously maintaining this. This would be a prerequisite and requirement of moving without thinking, because you can't really do that if you're concentrating on maintaining your transformation. In the manga we see that Goku has managed to master SSB in the form of FSSB. An important prerequisite.

2) Mastery of quick transformations. Vegeta displays that it is possible to "burst" a SSJ form. The particular issue with this is that it requires specific timing to be effective. However if the body possesses specific muscle memory to subconsciously burst a higher level form just before impact it would make the begin to tie into the "move without thinking" technique. Essentially without the issue of both concentrations on transformations and timing the ability to "ki burst" would become second nature to their bodies. And this is actually based on techniques used in martial arts strikes already.

3) Move without thinking is the most important aspect to tie it all together. If they could train their bodies to subconsciously maintain and quickly transform then the move without thinking technique could theoretically allow them to perform these actions in the correct and natural timing which would be key. Let's say as part of this, in the early stages of perfecting the technique Goku is looking to throw a single powerful throw, his body would need to have the muscle memory and ability to subconsciously transform are specific intervals to maximize the momentum similar to the three stage rocket. The timing would be crucial so this is where the move without think principle allows things which would have been almost impossible or extremely difficult to pull off consciously within a fight.

This is of course one example, but the point I was making is that proper utilization of the technique would enable better and more creative usage of exist forms versus the standard "New Form, New Power" troupe we've been getting. In my opinion this was the intention all along and I'm hoping we get to see some more cool and creative usage of skill and technique based fighting which doesn't suddenly grant more "power".

[emperior]

snip

Your idea of Goku's body automatically transforming in whatever form is best in a specific moment is good, but I wouldn't like to see something like it. Transformations need to be dropped. Ultra Instinct is the best thing we've ever got right now, if Goku could finally drop all his transformations I would be grateful.

[TheMikado]

snip

Your idea of Goku's body automatically transforming in whatever form is best in a specific moment is good, but I wouldn't like to see something like it. Transformations need to be dropped. Ultra Instinct is the best thing we've ever got right now, if Goku could finally drop all his transformations I would be grateful.

Well that was just for the beginning stages of the transformation as he gains enlightenment. If you look carefully at the aura of the Ultra Instinct it has multiple colors and hue. The idea is that his body would eventually find balance without the transformations while being able to automatically utilize the different advantages of each form. Essentially the different transformations merge into a single accessible form without the need to physically transform to access them.

For instance Goku would be able to increase his speed like SSG, hit as hard as SSB, and conserve stamina like a FSSJ without changing at all. That would be the end game and it would make sense showing him transitioning into it as the frequency of the transitions occurs so fast they merge into one another culminating into this enlightened state is which would be 100% skill and mental based.

[Kanassa]

I said it once before, but the more I see the TOP progress, the more I want to repeat the thought that the Anime and Manga conveniently have two specific opposing themes; at least I think.

The Anime: Bringing Mortals to the Realm of Gods
The Manga: Bringing Gods to the Realm of Mortals

This is especially prevalent in how Zamasu as whole is handed in the two interpretations. In the Anime, as the story progresses, Zamasu reaches more heights in both power, character and looks that are made to make him look more Godly with even his deformed form simply a christ-like analogy of 'God taking the sins of the world'. But in the Manga, he progressively seems to be shown becoming more of a mortal in all aspects. Even in the endings, where in one he becomes the universe, while in the other he infests the universe.

[TheMikado]

I said it once before, but the more I see the TOP progress, the more I want to repeat the thought that the Anime and Manga conveniently have two specific opposing themes; at least I think.

The Anime: Bringing Mortals to the Realm of Gods
The Manga: Bringing Gods to the Realm of Mortals

This is especially prevalent in how Zamasu as whole is handed in the two interpretations. In the Anime, as the story progresses, Zamasu reaches more heights in both power, character and looks that are made to make him look more Godly with even his deformed form simply a christ-like analogy of 'God taking the sins of the world'. But in the Manga, he progressively seems to be shown becoming more of a mortal in all aspects. Even in the endings, where in one he becomes the universe, while in the other he infests the universe.

That's good, that's actually damn good symbolism!
This makes even more sense with Whis comment to Vegeta in the last chapter where he doesn't talk about Vegeta getting as powerful as Beerus, but mastery of the technique as the key to success. In that situation a lesser mortal may be able to subdue a more powerful God instead of trying to brute force their way into God level powers. Bloody brilliant! I hope this pans out like this.

[jplaya2023]

so this new ultra divine form of goku in the manga will just be a silver outline with his ssj1 black hair. He won't have an aura other than that silver outline since he's mastered ssj blue

[Kishido]

Let us see how Toyo will handle Jiren now

[Namz]

As others have mentioned, the "Mastery of Self-Movement" technique is given much stronger foreshadowing in the manga than in the anime, particularly when observing the arc as a self-contained story. Having the Gods of Destruction participate in the exhibition match instead of Universe 7 and 9 also helps push this whole concept further and provide some much needed build-up for when the new form is finally unveiled.

I don't know, it just seems like the manga is off to a tremendously better start so far than the anime for this arc in particular.

I thought Jiren's introductory scene in the anime was there to foreshadow the technique. Jiren probably has it too, considering how strong he is and how he moves.

Wasn't the whole "moving without thinking" shtick mentioned as far back as the ROF arc in the Super anime?

This new form of Goku is clearly something else, which also gives more strength. Whis didn't even know what it was in the first time.

[Spider-Man]

My bet is Geene to win this exhibition.

Ok let talk about something interesting about Ribrianne and her two comrades, I do think they will have different characterization compared to the Anime,i doubt if Toyo is like toei that have a huge appreciation for magical girl.

I feel like their introduction and conflict will be done differently as well here compared to 102,that will be interesting IMO, this is one of the reasons I read the manga just to see how different it is.