Does Funimation really treat Dragonball that bad?

[Lavender Saiyan]

I totally understand what you are saying. It's like the Dub brought on some of the aspects of "Uncle Piccolo" (as Mike would say) earlier than actually appeared. But to be honest, other than that line against Android #20, he really never acted like he was kind of evil still or changing. To me it's like he was already changed, he didn't hold any ill feelings towards anyone. In addition, he even saved Goku's life on Namek (pulling him out of the water). Plus, remember when Krillin and Gohan fired on Freeza while Piccolo was trying to distract Freeza while Goku gathered Ki? When they did that, he kind of smiled and gave them props. To me, that's not the reaction of someone who's still in the process of changing. His line about not being soft like Goku against #20 really isn't all that "old school Piccolo". It's just him saying he's not a softie and he's a hardass. In reality, most fighters, even Trunks are pretty badass when it comes to evil. Goku's just the softie.

As for the Dub line you asked about. Piccolo said something like "But then Vegeta got in my way". It kind of implied that Vegeta super sped onto the battle field and flew right in front of Piccolo thus distracting him.

[Conan the SSJ]

I've often wondered if Joss Whedon was a Dragon Ball fan because of this.

Well, he or one of his writers certainly is, as Andrew made a very specific reference to Vegeta in Season 7. Even asked Dawn to play Budokai with him. That Andrew, acting all straight in his last appearance in Angel with the Bond-like women...we know he's fronting for his attractions to Son Goku.

[Lavender Saiyan]

Oh god that clip always made me laugh. For 2 reasons. #1 because the character infers that Vegeta is no longer "pure Saiyan" once he joins Goku. I get what he was trying to say, but the wording sucks. Also it's just funny because of the way the guy talks. He sounds so lame yet compares himself to Vegeta.

[SonEric84]

Master Roshi in movie 2 was terrible, but that's not the same guy who voiced him in the series. I've heard Roshi in Japanese and I agree he's awesome. The Funi version of Kaio sucks compared to the ocean version, I thought the ocean version's actor could do the serious parts pretty well.

Have to go with Mr. McFarland as he was in my opinion, great as a dirty old man. Mr. Corlett, couldn't be a dirty old man.

Mr. Sabat's Piccolo as I said before was better when he was evil. Heck, his King Piccolo voice was great too. Similar to regular Piccolo, but more mature and sinister. And if any of you guys don't have issues watching shojo anime, check out Fruits Basket. He rocks as Ayame.


Oh don't get me wrong, I liked McFarland's Roshi just fine...although, I just have a preference for the original (dub anyway) voice because it's what I was used to first. I think I liked Scott McNeil's Piccolo better though...sometimes Sabat just sounded too forced...but I do agree he was great for King Piccolo.

[Lavender Saiyan]

I think I liked Scott McNeil's Piccolo better though...sometimes Sabat just sounded too forced...but I do agree he was great for King Piccolo.

My god, that's hilarious. I said the exact opposite. I think McNeil's Piccolo is perfect for th demonic King Piccolo.

Anyway, since I am on Daizenshuu EX, the ultimate place for the purists (I don't use that term as a pompus insult) to hang. I think I should give an overview of exactly why I like FUNi's cast and takes on the characters in contrast to the Original or the Ocean Dub. But first I want to make it clear, I'm not an ignorant dubbie who knows only the Dub. I own all of the Manga and have been using the Big Orange Brick releases as a way to watch the series beginning to end consistently in Japanese. Thus have watched 107 Episodes in JP + a good deal of random episodes after 107.

Now then, first up is Vegeta. We know that the original basis for the character of Vegeta is a snide and arrogant man. He enjoys insulting people, but as stated, is more so into taunting and mocking than actual insults. However Dub Vegeta uses a lot of insults that aren't exactly the ultimate insult. But to me, I find that as taking Vegeta's mocking attitude and combining it with mcoking insults. Thus combining with insults and mocking Vegeta. Which means that Dub Vegeta is not out of character with the original. Rather than going the "candy ass faggot" route, Dub Vegeta likes to mock his opponents with verbal "jabs" (if you will). Such as "The ultimate tub of lard, bucket of bolts". Now keep in mind, Vegeta basically hates and despises all of these people up until the Cell Games or Buu Era (depending on how you view it). So it's completely logical that Vegeta would enjoy mocking and insulting the Z-fighters aswell. Heck, he does it often in the JP Version.

As for Vegeta's voice. Ryo has the arrogant royalty part good. But I can't stand it when he yells and screams. It just doesn't seem threatening enough or really angry at all for that matter. I'm sure I'm going to get slammed for that comment, but it's the way I feel. His screaming has got nothing on his fellow Seiyuu, like Nozawa and Piccolo's seiyuu. However Sabat's got the arrogant down perfect and his screaming sounds angry and mean. The later Sabat (Buu era and on) has the right amound of deepness to sound as a good feel for Vegeta. He may not sound royal, but to me, Vegeta's arrogant and pissy before he's royal. As a hardened warrior, I don't think Vegeta should actually have that "royal" tone to his voice. Now Drummond, just like Sabat, can strike fear into your heart when he is angry. But the voice just doesn't fit. Like I said in a previous post, it's too "Teen Punk" sounding.

Next up is Piccolo. The main problem with you purists is that they brought on the wise Piccolo heavier in the early stuff as opposed to the slightly wise Piccolo in the original early stuff. However, I feel that Piccolo always had the wise feel from the start of Z. He was never arrogant like his father. Remember on Namek when Piccolo went to fight Freeza and Gohan said "Piccolo can ussually tell his enemies strength". So we know he's not quite that demonic dickhead like his dad. Piccolo's can almost be compared to a confused teenager. It's like there's this view of what he is that he holds of himself. That being a demon. While there is this part of him that is not that view he has of himself. Piccolo has a lot of honor and smarts. Unlike his father. King Piccolo was what we should be viewing as a demonic character, not Piccolo Jr. Piccolo begins to show a lot of that "wiseness" well before fusing with Kami. Such as giving speeches to Freeza about killing the Nameks and the fate of Namek. With the wiseness already in place in the and the occasional speech. Dub Piccolo really doesn't come that far off, it just furthers the speeches.

As for Piccolo's voice. I do love Piccolo's Seiyuu, I think he does a great job. But he doesn't sound wise enough for me. Sabat's Piccolo gives you the gruff demon along with the wise. McNeil's only gives you the demon.

I'm not really going to bother hitting up Goku. I just want to say one thing on behalf of Dub Goku. You guys complain a lot that you don't like his heroic speeches. But he does give them in the original, the thing is the Dub has atleast twice as many. So the heroic speeches really aren't out of character.

Finally I want to hit up the music issue super quick. The original music, though well composed...fails to increase in drama with the shift in feel to the series. Once the King Piccolo Saga began, DB shifted from Martial Arts Adventure series. To save the planet action. The music failed to shift with this change in the series genre. I've always believed that the JP Music is superior in emotional scenes. But when it comes to the action element. Or just the normal "nothing's happening" element. I feel the JP music lacks. Faulconer's score can get me pumped up in a fight and also just feels natural when nothing's happening. Such as King Kai's theme music. When it switches to a scene on his planet and that music kicks in. It just feels right. I love how a lot of characters get their own themes, and even every Era has a different feel to a good portion of the music. I know I'm not crazy for enjoying this type of music with DBZ because a lot of other action anime feature the same feel of music. I know a lot of people say it's because DBZ is a series from the 90's. But I don't think the time period is the case. The 90's shouldn't sound like that. It's a matter of DB having an amazing score throughout most of DB and sticking with that same tempo even when the action picked up in the series.

*whew*...OK, I'm done. I apologize if it got to be too ramble-ey. It's late and I wanted to make sure I said everything that I wanted to.

[Jerseymilk]

I just wanted to say I disagree with your opinion that the Japanese music doesn't get the job done. I think that it keeps the "light-hearted and adventurous spirit" that is Toriyama's DB. *That* to me is the real essence of what the series is. *Not* what the American music made it out to be.

The American music I found for the most part lacked any "character" or "charm", and most of the time was annoying and to me was actually often out of place in certain situations. While not as bad as the movies that indiscriminantly threw in rock songs with the volume so loud it drowned out the actual dialogue, it still detracked and bothered me nonetheless. But then again you have your opinion and I have mine. Just like what you've been stating about Sabat and McNeil, I feel the opposite to you.

[Onikage725]

Haha I forgot about Andrew! Ah memories.

I think I liked Scott McNeil's Piccolo better though...sometimes Sabat just sounded too forced...but I do agree he was great for King Piccolo.

My god, that's hilarious. I said the exact opposite. I think McNeil's Piccolo is perfect for th demonic King Piccolo.

I'd love to hear McNeil do Daimaou, but I do agree that Sabat made a good one too. I heard his "King Piccolo" after watching through Yu Yu Hakusho, and I had already been impressed with his Raizen. And he uses nearly the same voice, so it was kinda kickass. Its kinda like watching Guyver 2 Dark Hero after playing Metal Gear Solid, and realizing that Solid Snake is just David Hayter's bio-boosted voice.

Anyway, since I am on Daizenshuu EX, the ultimate place for the purists (I don't use that term as a pompus insult) to hang. I think I should give an overview of exactly why I like FUNi's cast and takes on the characters in contrast to the Original or the Ocean Dub. But first I want to make it clear, I'm not an ignorant dubbie who knows only the Dub. I own all of the Manga and have been using the Big Orange Brick releases as a way to watch the series beginning to end consistently in Japanese. Thus have watched 107 Episodes in JP + a good deal of random episodes after 107.

Haha we really are different sides of the same coin. You're like me with the dub, watching everything new they put out to compare and look for improvements, and checking stuff out to see how it fits with the original audio.

Now then, first up is Vegeta. We know that the original basis for the character of Vegeta is a snide and arrogant man. He enjoys insulting people, but as stated, is more so into taunting and mocking than actual insults. However Dub Vegeta uses a lot of insults that aren't exactly the ultimate insult. But to me, I find that as taking Vegeta's mocking attitude and combining it with mcoking insults. Thus combining with insults and mocking Vegeta. Which means that Dub Vegeta is not out of character with the original. Rather than going the "candy ass faggot" route, Dub Vegeta likes to mock his opponents with verbal "jabs" (if you will). Such as "The ultimate tub of lard, bucket of bolts". Now keep in mind, Vegeta basically hates and despises all of these people up until the Cell Games or Buu Era (depending on how you view it). So it's completely logical that Vegeta would enjoy mocking and insulting the Z-fighters aswell. Heck, he does it often in the JP Version.

As for Vegeta's voice. Ryo has the arrogant royalty part good. But I can't stand it when he yells and screams. It just doesn't seem threatening enough or really angry at all for that matter. I'm sure I'm going to get slammed for that comment, but it's the way I feel. His screaming has got nothing on his fellow Seiyuu, like Nozawa and Piccolo's seiyuu. However Sabat's got the arrogant down perfect and his screaming sounds angry and mean. The later Sabat (Buu era and on) has the right amound of deepness to sound as a good feel for Vegeta. He may not sound royal, but to me, Vegeta's arrogant and pissy before he's royal. As a hardened warrior, I don't think Vegeta should actually have that "royal" tone to his voice. Now Drummond, just like Sabat, can strike fear into your heart when he is angry. But the voice just doesn't fit. Like I said in a previous post, it's too "Teen Punk" sounding.

That makes sense, but it is just a case of degrees for me. It's not like I prefer the anime labs subs either. I don't know about you, but I would feel equally offended if someone called me a candy-ass or the ultimate tub of lard. No scratch that, I would have felt offended back in high school. Now, I'd probably shake my head and walk away from whatever juvenile moron I had previously been talking to.

Next up is Piccolo. The main problem with you purists is that they brought on the wise Piccolo heavier in the early stuff as opposed to the slightly wise Piccolo in the original early stuff. However, I feel that Piccolo always had the wise feel from the start of Z. He was never arrogant like his father. Remember on Namek when Piccolo went to fight Freeza and Gohan said "Piccolo can ussually tell his enemies strength". So we know he's not quite that demonic dickhead like his dad. Piccolo's can almost be compared to a confused teenager. It's like there's this view of what he is that he holds of himself. That being a demon. While there is this part of him that is not that view he has of himself. Piccolo has a lot of honor and smarts. Unlike his father. King Piccolo was what we should be viewing as a demonic character, not Piccolo Jr. Piccolo begins to show a lot of that "wiseness" well before fusing with Kami. Such as giving speeches to Freeza about killing the Nameks and the fate of Namek. With the wiseness already in place in the and the occasional speech. Dub Piccolo really doesn't come that far off, it just furthers the speeches.

Piccolo doesn't really do morality lectures though. Yeah, slightly while against Freeza, but that was heavily influenced by Nail too. It was pretty obvious that the fusion with Namek's greatest warrior is where Piccolo's newfound sense of civic pride came from. I know the Gero thing is probably the most glaring example, but it does best serve my point.

An explanation of how Gero utterly failed to understand how ki works becomes:
"The more you hurt others, the harder your life becomes. Its simple, your desire to kill is killing you. *Cuts off hand* You could have put this hand to good use! What a waste of technology."

I'm sorry, but a world of no.

I'm not really going to bother hitting up Goku. I just want to say one thing on behalf of Dub Goku. You guys complain a lot that you don't like his heroic speeches. But he does give them in the original, the thing is the Dub has atleast twice as many. So the heroic speeches really aren't out of character.

Again I think it is a measure of degrees. Goku isn't really out of character in the dub, but they do ham up the moral angle to near Captain America levels. Its like the took the "parody of Superman" angle and ran with it the the nth degree. Prime example, when telling Freeza of his dual origins and how his power was awakaned by rage, dub Goku goes on about how he is the "hope of the universe, the answer to all living things that cry out for peace, protector of the innocent, the light in the darkness, truth."

Finally I want to hit up the music issue super quick. The original music, though well composed...fails to increase in drama with the shift in feel to the series. Once the King Piccolo Saga began, DB shifted from Martial Arts Adventure series. To save the planet action. The music failed to shift with this change in the series genre. I've always believed that the JP Music is superior in emotional scenes. But when it comes to the action element. Or just the normal "nothing's happening" element. I feel the JP music lacks. Faulconer's score can get me pumped up in a fight and also just feels natural when nothing's happening. Such as King Kai's theme music. When it switches to a scene on his planet and that music kicks in. It just feels right. I love how a lot of characters get their own themes, and even every Era has a different feel to a good portion of the music. I know I'm not crazy for enjoying this type of music with DBZ because a lot of other action anime feature the same feel of music. I know a lot of people say it's because DBZ is a series from the 90's. But I don't think the time period is the case. The 90's shouldn't sound like that. It's a matter of DB having an amazing score throughout most of DB and sticking with that same tempo even when the action picked up in the series.

I just doesnt doesnt help how a lot of these themes really suck. Like I said, roughly any scene involving Bulma on Namek had this ridiculously annoying theme that makes me cringe. I also hate how they try to score the series to match EVERYTHING. In my opinion it goes overboard. A typical action sequence will have a very generic, Saban-era style tone going. Then when the action picks up, it'll suddenly, jarringly, switch to what I can best describe as someone physically abusing a guitar and trying to pass the result off as rock. Then what gets me is that this will often stop the moment the action slows for a second (a dodged attack for example) and switch to these Hannah barbera-ish sounds, then suddenly kick backinto mangled-guitar mode. And that's seriously at least 75% of the fight scenes. The various themes in the original (and I do get pumped listening to most, for example the various remixes of Piccolo's theme during his fights, the music played when Goku fought the Ginyu, or whenever Cell was on a rampage) I did find memorable. Actually I do remember most of the dub's battle music. To partially quote Conker- "I certainly do. I don't want know them."

*whew*...OK, I'm done. I apologize if it got to be too ramble-ey. It's late and I wanted to make sure I said everything that I wanted to.

There's nothing wrong with that :p
Who doesn't enjoy a good debate?

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Onikage725]

I find it ironic that... ok, let's say that 4Kids had acquired DBZ and FUNi had gotten big on Pokemon. Let's say they grew into a similar company to what they are now. FUNimation would actually take a dub like their own DBZ dub and fix it if they could. If they produced it new now, it would come out very professional, without this "two different versions" arguing. Look at Yu Yu Hakusho. Watching dub or sub is generally viewed as a language or actor preference to all but the most hardcore. DBZ in contrast comes down to "are you a dubbie or subbie, which VERSION do you prefer." It's like we watch two different shows that just so happen to have the same footage.

And for the record Kunzait, the Street Sharks were jawsome

[Super Sonic]

Interesting thought Onikage. Especially since DBZ is based off a Jump manga.

[Vekurotto]

I find it ironic that... ok, let's say that 4Kids had acquired DBZ and FUNi had gotten big on Pokemon. Let's say they grew into a similar company to what they are now.

I feel the only thing that would have come from that would be a heavily edited dub-only DBZ and Japanese subtitled pokemon, which isn't all that different from 4kids' dub.

Again, I disagree. The music even in the action scenes is much more "epic" in tone. It carries the vibe of an old Kung Fu film. DBZ isn't as much about "save the planet"... well I mean yeah that element is there... but the dub, via the voices, script, and music gives the series the misleading feel of a "superhero" show. And it's not. The Z Senshi are not the Justice League. It's a martial arts show about martial artists. It always has been and it always will be.

I can pretty much agree with this. DBZ has similar musical style to Hokuto No Ken if you've seen it. I was throughly disappointed at Manga Entertainment for replacing the music because 1. It ruined the entire feel of the series and 2. It was just plain wrong music. Much like Funimation's dub music.

Make of it what you will, but it's undeniable that the Japanese score has a style all its own. Faulconer's score, by contrast has NO style. It's droning, monotonous... it's completely dead and synthetic. It's white noise. There isn't a memorable theme to be found anywhere, it's so instantly forgettable. It's typically kiddie, G.I. Joe fare. It's style is so far removed from what DBZ is that if anything it's anti-DBZ.

It's not even that it's just bad music for DBZ; it's bad music PERIOD. And the fact that the various Japanese soundtrack CD's are prized collectors items that are rabidly sought after while Faulconer's CD's collect dust in total obscurity just further points out how much no one, absolutely NO ONE outside of the most hardcore niche of North American dub DBZ fans gives a rat's ass about the FUNimation score.

Not really. I feel that Faulconer's score captures the fighting element of DBZ but misses every other subtle element. It's not good music but not horrible, unmemorable music either. The real problem with it is that it never stops.

I don't think that Funi's score has the saying power that the original score has though. I feel that the dub score sounds even more dated than the original score, as in it seems like cheap techno/rock made in late '99/early 2000's because that was the most "popular" new thing at that time.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[jjgp1112]

I think that the reason why Piccolo was able to coexist with Krillin and the others in the saiyan was saga was because he was a smart strategist, and was smart enough to put personal differences aside to win a battle. However, the dub made it seem like Piccolo was a complete hero when he said to Gohan while Chiaotzu was going to blow himself up. He told him, "Honor his bravery!". However, in the Japanese version, he says, "This is what fighting is!"

[theoriginalbilis]

In short: YES. Their dubs of DB/Z/GT are inaccurate. The DVD releases for DB & DBZ are flawed & incomplete.

However, I give them props for introducing me to the series and I eventually found my way to the Japanese version (thanks to DVDs) ... I'm also a big enough man to admit I like watching both English & Japanese versions of Dragon Ball anime. I find enjoyable factors in each version, even though I adknowledge the differences (as many of our fine forum members have brought up).

And yes, I buy the DBZ Season Sets and don't plan on stopping. Eat that big omelette. Mainly because I love DBZ and want the entire show dubbed & subbed, but not enough to shell out $1,500+ dollars for a set of DVDs w/ no subtitles.

- Bilis

[Jerseymilk]

One point that I really agree with Onikage on is about Piccolo not giving "morality lectures". That's not him at all. He's not some "Father Knows Best authority figure". In the original, he was always very direct and even harsh. It's more like him to say, "You chose to do this, now here are the consequences. Deal with them." He's really not one you go to to get molly-coddling.

I also agree about Sabat, at least for DBZ. The man *cannot* act. And I used to be an actress, trained at theatre school and everything. So I'm confident in my assessment here. XD The only role I've heard from him that I thought he did well was Armstrong in FMA, but my theory on that is that he pulled it off because the nature of the character is already over-the-top and a caricature.

[Rocketman]

Well, he or one of his writers certainly is, as Andrew made a very specific reference to Vegeta in Season 7.

So, Goku is Buffy, Piccolo is Angel and Vegeta is Spike?

[Onikage725]

Interesting thought Onikage. Especially since DBZ is based off a Jump manga.

Exactly! Ironic, no?

[Adey]

To Kunzait_83 : I wouldn't want HNK to get dubbed anyway, I watched the dubbed movie and I wanted Ken to bust down my door, Hyakuretsu Ken my face so my head exploded so I wouldn't have to hear that crap. It'd just be as bad if it were dubbed now. It doesn't really warrant a dubbing either, it's nowhere near as in demand or as popular as DBZ, besides, the Japanese version is perfect!.

Back on topic though, I think that honestly, there are a few Faulconer tracks I like (SSJ3 music, the music when Vegeta does his Final Flash), that fit the dub greatly, but it just isn't -real- DBZ music).

I didn't mind the track that played when Trunks went SSJ for Freeza, but you really can never top Battle Power Unlimited.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Vekurotto]

I take these things for granted sometimes because I've been a fan of HnK for so long that it's easy for me to forget how surprisingly unknown it is in the general "mainstream" anime community.

I just got into HnK a few months ago and watched the first 109 episodes and I think it's a damn shame that nobody knows about this series except for a few hardcore anime fans. However I don't see it getting licensed due to it's age, and because it's fairly unknown. I don't know what company it'd go to either if it did get licensed. I'd rather it not be Funi though because they might pull the reason that this thread was made and screw the fans worldwide with a very insulting dub... I know they aren't like they were before but then again DBZ's 2007 dub is along the lines of the 1999 dub, which sucked at that time.