Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ChiefWamsutta]

How does this look? Any changes I should make? People in the higher slots in the tiers are stronger than people lower in the tier.

Omnipotent Tier
Zeno | Future Zeno
Grand Priest

Angel Tier
Some Angels
Vados
Whis
Other Angels

Above God of Destruction Tier
Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku

God of Destruction Tier
Some GoDs
Beerus
Champa
Other GoDs
SSBlue Kaioken x 20 Goku
SSB Vegito

SSBlue Kaioken Tier
SSRage Future Trunks (Sword of Hope)
Merged Zamasu (Half-Corrupted)
SSBlue Kaioken x 10 Goku
SSBlue Kaioken x 2 Goku
Toppo
Merged Zamasu

SSBlue Tier
SSBlue Goku | SSBlue Vegeta
True Golden Frieza
Hit
SSRosé Goku Black
SSRage Future Trunks
Ultimate Gohan
Maji Kayo
Dyspo

SSGod Tier
Goku Black
SSGod Goku
Mastered Final Form Frieza

[Bullza]

I just can’t agree with the exact character placement on your list, especially in regards to your comparison with base Goku and Vegeta (and Cabba by an outdated extension). A number of characters made substantial gains during the time between the U6 tourney and the ToP.

It's their Base strength that is the crux of all the confusion. I kinda think it's just big plot hole, instead of all these confusing theories surrounding it, I think they just messed up.

Keeping it as soon please as I can here's the problem.

Resurrection F saga - Base Goku and by extension Vegeta are pretty much said to be stronger than Majin Buu. They're also far stronger than SSJ Gohan. So they're over 50 times as strong as Gohan.

Universe 6 saga - Copy Vegeta was vastly more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks. So the same is also true for Base Goku and Base Vegeta. Cabba was said and shown to be on par with Vegeta and Caulifla is even stronger than Cabba so they top should be vastly stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Kinda odd I guess but we aren't familiar with those characters history so I can whatever I can accept it.

Future Trunks saga - Zamasu says Goku got tens of times stronger when he turned Super Saiyan. So SSJ Goku and the others I mentioned above should be well over 50x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Then on top of that Goku and Vegeta got a lot stronger throughout that saga too.

So that leads us to now. Goku fought Gohan twice and they seemed about equal which would mean SSJ2 Gohan would be significantly over 100 times stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. The same should also be true for Piccolo if he's about as strong as SSJ2 Gohan.

And that makes very little sense. Piccolo was implied to be weaker than Good Buu in the Universe 6 saga who should be weaker than SSJ Gotenks. So in the space of a year he grew over 1,000 times stronger? That can't be right.

Base Gohan being equal to Base Goku who is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks also doesn't make sense. It would mean as a SSJ2 he should have been far stronger than he ever was by a ridiculous margin but no he can't be because Piccolo was training to get back his "original strength" as in the Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga.

So none of it adds up because Base Goku should be able to walk all over SSJ2 Gohan but instead he's about equal to him in Base form.

My only explanation for any of this to make sense is that Goku was dicking about. That also wouldn't make much sense but it is something he does.

See in the tier list you gave you have Drugged Basil above Base Goku but Buu was a lot stronger than Drugged Basil. Then as I mentioned in Resurrection F, Frieza says to Base Goku something like

"I'd heard you'd beaten Majin Buu but to think you'd become this strong..."

In other words Frieza knew Goku was gonna be stronger than Buu (a stronger version of Buu than Good Buu) but he still proved to be stronger than expectations anyway. So he should be a lot stronger than Good Buu and Drugged Basil.

[dragon boss z]

Alright, if base Gohan after training with the Z Sword (His peak on Z) is a 100. How are these compared to him?

maybe something like this?

BoG arc base Gohan: 70
RoF arc base Gohan: 40
U6 arc base Gohan: 50
FT arc base Gohan: 65
ToP arc base Gohan: 110

I just can’t agree with the exact character placement on your list, especially in regards to your comparison with base Goku and Vegeta (and Cabba by an outdated extension). A number of characters made substantial gains during the time between the U6 tourney and the ToP.

It's their Base strength that is the crux of all the confusion. I kinda think it's just big plot hole, instead of all these confusing theories surrounding it, I think they just messed up.

Keeping it as soon please as I can here's the problem.

Resurrection F saga - Base Goku and by extension Vegeta are pretty much said to be stronger than Majin Buu. They're also far stronger than SSJ Gohan. So they're over 50 times as strong as Gohan.

Universe 6 saga - Copy Vegeta was vastly more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks. So the same is also true for Base Goku and Base Vegeta. Cabba was said and shown to be on par with Vegeta and Caulifla is even stronger than Cabba so they top should be vastly stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Kinda odd I guess but we aren't familiar with those characters history so I can whatever I can accept it.

Keep in mind Whis said their powers would vastly grow if they keep their ki from leaking. It's possible that it could go like this

base Cabba<=base Vegeta<=>base Goku<<<<ssj3 Gotenks<mastered base Goku/Vegeta<ssj(50x regular base)<<<<<<<<ssb (50x mastered base)

also there is the fact that ssj Vegeta all of a sudden tanked a full power punch from ssj Cabba to the face, so he may of just been holding back the whole time.

Though who really knows.

[JazzMazz]

What do people think about SSG's performance against Jiren in comparison to SSB?

It kind of begs the question why Beerus was having such a hard time?

[LowRyder2005]

Alright, if base Gohan after training with the Z Sword (His peak on Z) is a 100. How are these compared to him?

BoG arc base Gohan:
RoF arc base Gohan:
U6 arc base Gohan:
FT arc base Gohan:
ToP arc base Gohan:

Given how much the current base Gohan stacks compared to his Buu saga self I've come to re-evaluate my idea of base Gohan post Z sword is his peak. Gohan trains a day with the Z sword and thinks his "arm strength" may have increased, we're not left with any indication he's vastly stronger than before if not for how he handles the Z sword compared to Goku, which could be more of a matter of technique/balancing than anything else I guess.

Cell arc base Gohan: 90
Buu arc base Gohan: 35 (note: Dabra is about as strong as the Perfect Cell fought by Goku)
Buu arc base Gohan (Z sword): 40
BoG arc base Gohan: 8 (his Ultimate form practically is not that far off the relatively weak Majin Buu; given that Buu and Gohan are generally coupled together as the strongest fighters around and Ultimate Gohan's performance compared to Buu's, it seems fitting)
RoF arc base Gohan: 4 (his Super Saiyan puts him above someone who, by process of elimination, can only be equivalent to his "best" base form; he can barely turn Super Saiyan to begin with; I think this is the exact same level I place him in the beginning of the Android Arc)
U6 arc base Gohan: 40 (gets back a lot of power, but is not quite like his Cell Game self, per Trunks' words)
FT arc base Gohan: 45
Between the FT arc and ToP: 80
Fight with Piccolo: 90
ToP arc base Gohan: 115

Keep in mind Whis said their powers would vastly grow if they keep their ki from leaking. It's possible that it could go like this

base Cabba<=base Vegeta<=>base Goku<<<<ssj3 Gotenks<mastered base Goku/Vegeta<ssj(50x regular base)<<<<<<<<ssb (50x mastered base)

also there is the fact that ssj Vegeta all of a sudden tanked a full power punch from ssj Cabba to the face, so he may of just been holding back the whole time.

Though who really knows.

That's very similar to a pet theory of mine, resting on the hypothesis that through their specific training with ki they achieve a state where they can raise their strength to near Super Saiyan levels, or some arbitrary in-between level. It still seems like this stuff has been progressively abandoned both in and out of universe, since there were visible differences between the base form seen in ROF and every other time it appeared -- they do, almost, look like other historical times when Goku was tapping into some Super Saiyan power into his base (mostly TOEI-made stuff, with goldish aura, etc.).

Still, if Gohan regressed through lack of training, Goten and Trunks also could have. I don't have them that far away from Buu arc Gohan, for the simple reason that Gotenks and Gohan looks to be close to each other, and that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than every Super Saiyan 1/2 Gohan, who should be weaker than their Cell Game counterpart and yet makes Goku go Super Saiyan. In dire situations, lately, we don't really see Goku doing any better than Good Buu -- much worse, in fact.

"I'd heard you'd beaten Majin Buu but to think you'd become this strong..."

In other words Frieza knew Goku was gonna be stronger than Buu (a stronger version of Buu than Good Buu) but he still proved to be stronger than expectations anyway. So he should be a lot stronger than Good Buu and Drugged Basil.

To be fair, it's not that simple. First, is it Super or the movie? Because Freeza has never actualy seen any Majin Buu nor did he ever sense any Buu's ki in the manga continuity. So his knowledge about Buu may as well be entirely anecdotal in the movie, which has its own scenario.
In the anime he's indeed seen watching the battle with Buu along with the other bad guys in Hell, but in the adaptation of ROF he's in Mecha Freeza form and in solitary confinement; so I'm not sure if all of Freeza's scenes in which he is completely organic and hanging around have been retconned, or if we're supposed to reach the conclusion he was turned into his Mecha Freeza form and imprisoned afterwards.

I guess it'd be relatively easier to think he does know about Goku defeating Majin Buu, in which case the wording is definitely off. I mean, why would he say he has "heard" or received news about the defeat of Majin Buu (and act surprised about it, even when the soldiers do tell him) when he has literally seen the entire battle and the end of it from Hell? Which would also bring me to the conclusion that even if they were as careless as keeping this in Super, the only in-universe justification is that Freeza also got a memory wipe of his time in Hell or something at some point.

Yeah, you're right. Fuck. I don't know how to add this to my theory. I'd have to modify it a fair bit.

You don't really have to. Goku spars with Buu, but it's not stated anywhere that Buu is going all-out, nor is he even requested to go all out. It's just "Goku, do you want to spar with this Buu?" "Yes!".
Goku realizing that Buu can now reach speeds above the usual (the statement about "you've got that power" is completely ambiguous and could mean anything "you've got your usual high power") can have to do with some short uncharacteristic burst of speed on Buu's part, or his reaction times during the fight. While *Fat* Buu possessed flight speed superior to Super Saiyan Gohan's, there's also the fact every Good/ Fat Buu would literally stand around and let himself getting beat; this a theme in the Buu vs. Basil fight, for instance. His "you're faster" looks like a plain and less drastic "you're more nimble", in my opinion.

A page ago or so it has been said that Goku also, somehow, "forced" Buu to rely on tactics, which is arguably untrue. Goku and Buu spar, Buu gloats that "he will eliminate everyone", Goku tells him he can't kill opponents and Buu says "then I'll do this". "This" being he starts avoiding laying actual punches on Goku while bothering him with random, probably inconsequential, ki blasts, pushing him out of bounds; which means he was just reverting to an even less violent combat demeanor because he instead had to make sure he wouldn't kill his enemies.

[GodVegetto91]

Here's my scaling:

Jiren=Ultra Instinct Goku>Vermoud>Beerus>SSJ Blue Vegetto>Merged Zamasu.

[Legion]

You guys overrated Jiren and Goku too much Jiren and Goku are not above God of destruction tier (already confirmed that Jiren is Hakaishin tier, not above) and Goku is not equal to Jiren at all. Current Goku is not even above the Gods, actually. Nothing suggest this. He clearly need to improve, control and mastered his power...

[Simere]

Jiren and Goku are not above God of destruction tier (already confirmed that Jiren is Hakaishin tier, not above)

Confirmed by what?

Whis: I daresay...like a God of Destruction. He is one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You guys overrated Jiren and Goku too much Jiren and Goku are not above God of destruction tier (already confirmed that Jiren is Hakaishin tier, not above) and Goku is not equal to Jiren at all. Current Goku is not even above the Gods, actually. Nothing suggest this. He clearly need to improve, control and mastered his power...

Actually, Whis pointed out when he recited the rumour of a mortal who even a God of Destruction can't defeat that Jiren was definitely at their level, and possible even surpasses it. This is another "Vegetto VS. SS4" thing, or "SSB Vegetto VS. Beerus" thing, where they're probably close enough that it could go either way.

[Legion]

Jiren and Goku are not above God of destruction tier (already confirmed that Jiren is Hakaishin tier, not above)

Confirmed by what?

Whis: I daresay...like a God of Destruction. He is one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it.

Toei site. Is Hakaishi evel. Also, stronger than a GoD =/= stronger than all GoDs. For now we only know that Jiren>Vermoud. Jiren is in the GoD tier, that's all we can be certain about. How many of them he could actually beat remains to be seen, only Vermoud is confirmed so far. And even if he can beat them, it does not mean that he can stomp them.

[Hugo Boss]

You guys overrated Jiren and Goku too much Jiren and Goku are not above God of destruction tier (already confirmed that Jiren is Hakaishin tier, not above) and Goku is not equal to Jiren at all. Current Goku is not even above the Gods, actually. Nothing suggest this. He clearly need to improve, control and mastered his power...

Whis deducted Jiren is probably the mortal from the rumours. And by the possibility of Goku ascending to migattenogoku’i, the gods were stupefied. So, it wouldn’t be all that unreasonable to think they are above the current Hakaishin level. At least in Jiren’s case. Though, I would say Goku and Beerus share the same issue, so they have the potential to master the ability.

[BlueVegerot]

UI Goku and Jiren are on the level of Gods of Destruction but its possible they are near the bottom. For all we know Belmod might be one of the weaker ones. There is obviously gaps between the GoDs so maybe Belmod is near the very bottom so while Jiren might be stronger than him, somelike Geene might completely bend him over

[LowRyder2005]

You should really wait until the matter of the identity of the God who beat Beerus at arm-wrestling is solved beyond reasonable doubt.

[Smilodon]

Tier 2
• Vados
• Whis
• And all the other Angels.
• Full powered Jiren – It’s possible, given Belmod’s comment that Jiren doesn’t need to worry no matter what opponent he faces can be interpreted to include the angels given he was talking to an angel, and he didn’t qualify it further.

It's impossible...All angels are in a complete different level...They can knock out the hakaishins with a single tap (and doesn't seemed to be a strong hit like cell's kick in Kuririn for example)...If Cell didn't knocked kuririn out with that kick, you can say the gap between an angel and the hakaishin is bigger than Cell against Kuririn...And the angels can do magic, undo time, they also uses the ultra instinct, they can move faster than light...There's no way to anyone to face an angel right now...Only Daishinkan and Zeno...
Belmod said that because Marcarita was worried about Jiren (maybe she doesn't know him, or she is more racional and doesn't ignore the enemy).

[TheMikado]

Tier 2
• Vados
• Whis
• And all the other Angels.
• Full powered Jiren – It’s possible, given Belmod’s comment that Jiren doesn’t need to worry no matter what opponent he faces can be interpreted to include the angels given he was talking to an angel, and he didn’t qualify it further.

It's impossible...All angels are in a complete different level...They can knock out the hakaishins with a single tap (and doesn't seemed to be a strong hit like cell's kick in Kuririn for example)...If Cell didn't knocked kuririn out with that kick, you can say the gap between an angel and the hakaishin is bigger than Cell against Kuririn...And the angels can do magic, undo time, they also uses the ultra instinct, they can move faster than light...There's no way to anyone to face an angel right now...Only Daishinkan and Zeno...
Belmod said that because Marcarita was worried about Jiren (maybe she doesn't know him, or she is more racional and doesn't ignore the enemy).

I don't think those hits are power based but precision based. Everytime Whis "hits" someone its at very specific points. For instance when he knocks out Beerus its a quick tap to the back of the neck somewhere. Not a gut punch or a blow to the head, despite him actually facing Beerus and coming forward he specifically hits him from behind.

[Marlowe89]

I kinda think it's just big plot hole, instead of all these confusing theories surrounding it, I think they just messed up.

Well, everything is technically a theory, including the idea that they messed up. The disagreement here is regarding where they messed up, and I'm of the opinion that it was Super's earlier arcs.

What do people think about SSG's performance against Jiren in comparison to SSB?

It kind of begs the question why Beerus was having such a hard time?

SSG's performance was still significant in the fact that it accomplished a lot more against Jiren than the yellow Super Saiyan forms. It's important to note that he wasn't even guarding against Goku's attacks while the latter was using SS and SS2.

I don't think Beerus was having a terribly hard time against Goku during BoG, but on the other hand, I'm also a pretty firm believer that Jiren is actually stronger than Beerus anyway.

[TheMikado]

I kinda think it's just big plot hole, instead of all these confusing theories surrounding it, I think they just messed up.

Well, everything is technically a theory, including the idea that they messed up. The disagreement here is regarding where they messed up, and I'm of the opinion that it was Super's earlier arcs.

What do people think about SSG's performance against Jiren in comparison to SSB?

I agree with all this including Jiren being stronger than Beerus.

It kind of begs the question why Beerus was having such a hard time?

SSG's performance was still significant in the fact that it accomplished a lot more against Jiren than the yellow Super Saiyan forms. It's important to note that he wasn't even guarding against Goku's attacks while the latter was using SS and SS2.

I don't think Beerus was having a terribly hard time against Goku during BoG, but on the other hand, I'm also a pretty firm believer that Jiren is actually stronger than Beerus anyway.

I agree with all this including Jiren being stronger than Beerus.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Yeah kinda strange that Hit was even able to hit Jiren at all considering that Goku couldn't even with the Kaioken x20. He only even hit him once with Ultra Instinct as well.

I still have him as being a bit lower than just the ordinary Super Saiyan Blue Goku so he should get completely destroyed. I'd hope not though.

This does not necessarily mean that Hitto is stronger than Goku SSB KK X20.

His fighting style is peculiar, and Hitto uses techniques that allow him to face beings more powerful than him.
We saw that he killed Goku with only one punch when using his killer technique, even if it was impossible if he casually punched Goku, since he is weaker (in terms of power) than Goku himself.
With Time Skip he was also able to face Goku SSB KK X10 even though he was much weaker.

[BlueVegerot]

Beerus was HEAVILY suppressed when he fought SSG Goku, thats been made clear since that battle. While training Goku even said Beerus could beat him in his sleep and in the manga Beerus one shot MSSJB Vegeta

[ChiefWamsutta]

The reason that Ultra Instinct Goku should be above Beerus is because of the narrative.


In Battle of Gods, we see that Beerus is stronger than Base Goku, SS1 Goku, SS2 Goku, SS3 Goku, SS2 Enraged Vegeta, Gotenks, Piccolo, Android 18, Tien, and Base Gohan.

This sets the standard. We are hoping that SSGod Goku would be enough to be Beerus. It isn't.

In Resurrection 'F', we start to believe that Golden Frieza, SSBlue Goku, and SSBlue Vegeta can beat Beerus. They can't. But they are getting closer.

Then in U6 Tournament, SSBlue Kaioken Goku, and SSBlue Kaioken x 10 Goku are approaching Beerus' power.

In the Future Trunks arc, SSBlue Vegito is shown to be the strongest being from Universe 7 (not including Beerus and Whis). He still is not strong enough to beat Beerus.

In the Universe Survival saga, SSBlue Kaioken x 20 Goku fights Jiren with all his might. Narratively, this should be more power than any other being from U7.

It is only when Ultra Instinct Goku emerges that it is explained Goku's power is God of Destruction level or above.


We successively got closer and closer to Beerus' power, until Goku surpassed it.