Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

[darzap]

There's Toppo and Dyspo but the both of them come off as clowns and despite Toppo's build-up in the Zen Exhibition I honestly don't see him becoming a major obstacle going forward.

Indeed, they were ruined by the insignificance of their interference in the Jiren/Goku fight. I call it now: Those two are already booked for elimination just to display the latest level of power of Golden Freeza or Vegeta Blue.

[dbs fanboy]

No, if you don't apply real world logic you will have a boring show. The nature of real world to fiction is literally a matter of complexity. The fiction is merely a simplified reality. If you use the real world things in fiction it will be less boring. That is the proper viewpoint of writing and creative works. Let alone anything else.

It's not a matter of real world dynamics for me, it's making some sense as its own thing, which Super's idea of "strategery & tactix!" doesn't. Why the fuck would Krillin's +30 years of experience at aaaallll save him if the guy he's fighting can smash him out of bounds so fast Krillin can't even register it. Strategy and tactics, when used right in Dragon Ball, work just fine. Everyone vs Vegeta in the Saiyan arc is a perfectly example, nobody gets +1000000000000 PL points because of experience or whatever the fuck, it's a combination of dumb luck and varied power usage that ultimately lets them beat someone who'd usually kick their shit in even severely wounded. In Super? Strategy and tactics is just a nothing statement that makes worthless fodder like the Earthlings stand toe to toe with opponents who are completely beyond them in every capacity. Until the classic Z rule kicks in and power = trumps all.

You're right, thought i can't see how does this apply to this tournament. There's a vast difference between those situations on the saiyan saga and this arc. The difference is the fact, that on those fights, the warriors were trying to kill each other, so yeah, no problem. Howevern in the ToP , killing is not allowed so a lot of strong characters have to hold back their power, giving the weaker characters an opportunity to do something against them, even if it's not much, as the objective is to throw everyone out of bounds, without necessarily knocking them out.
For example the talisman user from U4 could have (maybe) defeated stronger characters such as maybe Gohan and co by using deception, to beat them and she wasn't defeated on a classical way. Krillin defeated that wolf guy (forgot his name) by outsmarting him and blocking the only way he could sense him, and use the brief moment to threw him off.

If killing was allowed, or knocking out the opponent were the only rules, then yeah, even with a lot of strategy, the weakling would only be able to try to survive.

So far, the only times i have seen super bullshitting it's way with these fights, were in this recent match, and when Roshi was able to defeat the bird guy by using power (even thought he put EVERYTHING on that kamehameha)

[SansrivaaL]

Don't know if this particular thread is appropriate for this question, but can somebody confirm if Saoneru's VA is really Nobutoshi Canna. He is credited as the VA on the DB wikia now, but people claim that's not the best source, so I'm reluctant. Seems a little too good to be true for me, and I didn't hear it in the one word Saonel spoke (I really this VA)

Yeah he is, could hear his Lancer voice from Fate all over his screams.
神奈延年
I hope Saoneru plays a huge role here.

[namekiansaiyan]

Don't know if this particular thread is appropriate for this question, but can somebody confirm if Saoneru's VA is really Nobutoshi Canna. He is credited as the VA on the DB wikia now, but people claim that's not the best source, so I'm reluctant. Seems a little too good to be true for me, and I didn't hear it in the one word Saonel spoke (I really this VA)

Yeah he is, could hear his Lancer voice from Fate all over his screams.
神奈延年
I hope Saoneru plays a huge role here.

I am going to see into the future again and we will see his full power after the Universe 6 Saiyans go.

He looks like a complete mad man in the preview.

Does his voice actor mean he might have a better chance at being more important? I know nothing about him.

[Michsi]

Don't know if this particular thread is appropriate for this question, but can somebody confirm if Saoneru's VA is really Nobutoshi Canna. He is credited as the VA on the DB wikia now, but people claim that's not the best source, so I'm reluctant. Seems a little too good to be true for me, and I didn't hear it in the one word Saonel spoke (I really this VA)

Yeah he is, could hear his Lancer voice from Fate all over his screams.
神奈延年
I hope Saoneru plays a huge role here.

Woohooo! I've took notice of this VA ever since the Berserk anime from 1997. He's not as active as he was in the 90s and early 00s, but he is definitely not a no-name. At the very least he'll be fun to listen to.

He looks like a complete mad man in the preview.

His role as Nnoitora was like that. He does the unhinged villain role pretty well.

Again, this isn't an indication that he'll be more significant, but it's nice that at least one namekian gets a good VA that's new to the franchise.

[namekiansaiyan]

Don't know if this particular thread is appropriate for this question, but can somebody confirm if Saoneru's VA is really Nobutoshi Canna. He is credited as the VA on the DB wikia now, but people claim that's not the best source, so I'm reluctant. Seems a little too good to be true for me, and I didn't hear it in the one word Saonel spoke (I really this VA)

Yeah he is, could hear his Lancer voice from Fate all over his screams.
神奈延年
I hope Saoneru plays a huge role here.

Woohooo! I've took notice of this VA ever since the Berserk anime from 1997. He's not as active as he was in the 90s and early 00s, but he is definitely not a no-name. At the very least he'll be fun to listen to.

He looks like a complete mad man in the preview.

His role as Nnoitora was like that. He does the unhinged villain role pretty well.

Again, this isn't an indication that he'll be more significant, but it's nice that at least one namekian gets a good VA that's new to the franchise.

He probably has some evil tendencies then.

[Lord Frieza]

what is he some sort of db Superman?

Thats kinf of what a lot of people suspected him of being, myself included. The "heat vision" only adds to the impression.

[Michsi]

Yeah he is, could hear his Lancer voice from Fate all over his screams.
神奈延年
I hope Saoneru plays a huge role here.

Woohooo! I've took notice of this VA ever since the Berserk anime from 1997. He's not as active as he was in the 90s and early 00s, but he is definitely not a no-name. At the very least he'll be fun to listen to.

He looks like a complete mad man in the preview.

His role as Nnoitora was like that. He does the unhinged villain role pretty well.

Again, this isn't an indication that he'll be more significant, but it's nice that at least one namekian gets a good VA that's new to the franchise.

He probably has some evil tendencies then.

As long as he's not a complete rip-off of DB's Piccolo.

[JazzMazz]

what is he some sort of db Superman?

Thats kinf of what a lot of people suspected him of being, myself included. The "heat vision" only adds to the impression.

He wasn't using heat vision though. Thats just the effect used to show thats his hitting his opponents at rapid speed.

[SansrivaaL]

Woohooo! I've took notice of this VA ever since the Berserk anime from 1997. He's not as active as he was in the 90s and early 00s, but he is definitely not a no-name. At the very least he'll be fun to listen to.

Yeah sadly, but I have heard of him just recently because of FSN Heavens feel so the moment I heard him fire that ki blast with a scream I remembered Lancer

I am going to see into the future again and we will see his full power after the Universe 6 Saiyans go.

Hopefully they do go out and have the 2 namekians as their last fighters inside the ring, I just hope Gohan leaves and have a handicap match namekian battle, Gohan with Piccolo nowadays leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I think Piccolo can handle himself against them anyways, that smirk screamed "its feeding time!"

Does his voice actor mean he might have a better chance at being more important? I know nothing about him.

Kale's VA Yukana has played a lot of anime roles despite not being as active as much and look how that got her, Berserk Kale whooped the living hell out of SSJ2 Goku.
But then Ribrianne's VA is completely new in the anime industry and has gotten quite the push so I dont know...
There is the possibility that he may bite the dust early because his VA is playing a big role in multiple movies with FSN Heaven's feel so I'm not sure, we can only hope as his voice is too good to not be important, he had quite the roles back in the days, too many to mention actually, he isnt new to this and has played major roles from different shows.

[ekrolo2]

No, if you don't apply real world logic you will have a boring show. The nature of real world to fiction is literally a matter of complexity. The fiction is merely a simplified reality. If you use the real world things in fiction it will be less boring. That is the proper viewpoint of writing and creative works. Let alone anything else.

It's not a matter of real world dynamics for me, it's making some sense as its own thing, which Super's idea of "strategery & tactix!" doesn't. Why the fuck would Krillin's +30 years of experience at aaaallll save him if the guy he's fighting can smash him out of bounds so fast Krillin can't even register it. Strategy and tactics, when used right in Dragon Ball, work just fine. Everyone vs Vegeta in the Saiyan arc is a perfectly example, nobody gets +1000000000000 PL points because of experience or whatever the fuck, it's a combination of dumb luck and varied power usage that ultimately lets them beat someone who'd usually kick their shit in even severely wounded. In Super? Strategy and tactics is just a nothing statement that makes worthless fodder like the Earthlings stand toe to toe with opponents who are completely beyond them in every capacity. Until the classic Z rule kicks in and power = trumps all.

You're right, thought i can't see how does this apply to this tournament. There's a vast difference between those situations on the saiyan saga and this arc. The difference is the fact, that on those fights, the warriors were trying to kill each other, so yeah, no problem. Howevern in the ToP , killing is not allowed so a lot of strong characters have to hold back their power, giving the weaker characters an opportunity to do something against them, even if it's not much, as the objective is to throw everyone out of bounds, without necessarily knocking them out.
For example the talisman user from U4 could have (maybe) defeated stronger characters such as maybe Gohan and co by using deception, to beat them and she wasn't defeated on a classical way. Krillin defeated that wolf guy (forgot his name) by outsmarting him and blocking the only way he could sense him, and use the brief moment to threw him off.

If killing was allowed, or knocking out the opponent were the only rules, then yeah, even with a lot of strategy, the weakling would only be able to try to survive.

So far, the only times i have seen super bullshitting it's way with these fights, were in this recent match, and when Roshi was able to defeat the bird guy by using power (even thought he put EVERYTHING on that kamehameha)

This is by far the laziest and most wrong defense of the practice. Goku powers up to a higher strength just fine and he smashes the Ginyu Force's entire shit in WITHOUT killing them! FFS! Goku makes himself considerably more powerful then Nappa and in the burst of a moment can hit him precisely enough to leave him disabled, but alive. Cell is leagues above Vegeta but he doesn't kill him when he smashes him in the back while suppressed.

Can we please by Thor's fucking beard stop acting like everyone's too incompetent/stupid to fight at higher levels of power without killing somebody?

[TekTheNinja]

I don't understand why people see this as a good sendoff for Hit. I expected he'd at least do some lasting damage to Jiren but he didn't even do that. He just kinda failed for a long time while Jiren humored him. I also literally laughed out loud at the notion that this was "unexpected" when everyone guessed a long time ago that this was going to happen.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, with the whole "tactics vs. power" swallowing episode threads AGAIN, I think I'll just duck out of that discussion and focus on what we ought to be talking about.

===

Hit against Jiren! Man, Jiren is just a MONSTER. Which makes sense, since the Gods of Destruction are also monsters. Fighting him is like fighting one of them.

Also, Freeza, you slimy smug snake, you got something devious up your nonexistent sleeves! Well, he at least gets to save face by making sure no one sees him helping Goku out

I also like how the perspective shifts from fight to fight, even if the primary event is Hit fighting against Jiren.

[namekiansaiyan]

I don't understand why people see this as a good sendoff for Hit. I expected he'd at least do some lasting damage to Jiren but he didn't even do that. He just kinda failed for a long time while Jiren humored him. I also literally laughed out loud at the notion that this was "unexpected" when everyone guessed a long time ago that this was going to happen.

I wanted him to do more damage as well so Hiren had to rest instead of just meditating in the arena for no reason.

This fight had the most obvious outcome and now we have to see if Universe 6 can cope now.

[TekTheNinja]

So, with the whole "tactics vs. power" swallowing episode threads AGAIN, I think I'll just duck out of that discussion and focus on what we ought to be talking about.

What we ought to be talking about? Well excuse me, but tactics vs power is very relevant in this episode because tactics were hyped early on and here tactics are completely disregarded because Jiren is so stupidly overpowered that nothing matters, so I'd say tactics vs power IS something we should be discussing.

I wanted him to do more damage as well so Hiren had to rest instead of just meditating in the arena for no reason.

This fight had the most obvious outcome and now we have to see if Universe 6 can cope now.

Maybe the Namekians will be major players, but I have a bad feeling that they're only there for Gohan and Piccolo to defeat.

[Doctor.]

How come Jiren's allowed to levitate while he's meditating?

Grand Priest, disqualify him already.

[Lord Frieza]

what is he some sort of db Superman?

Thats kinf of what a lot of people suspected him of being, myself included. The "heat vision" only adds to the impression.

He wasn't using heat vision though. Thats just the effect used to show thats his hitting his opponents at rapid speed.

Really?



The impact points look like burn marks and ar smaller then Jiren's fist radius. The damage looks more akin to rapide fire beam impact then a physical punch.

[namekiansaiyan]

I wanted him to do more damage as well so Hiren had to rest instead of just meditating in the arena for no reason.

This fight had the most obvious outcome and now we have to see if Universe 6 can cope now.

Maybe the Namekians will be major players, but I have a bad feeling that they're only there for Gohan and Piccolo to defeat.

They are definitely hiding something or if it does come down to it then fusion even though I really don't want it. This fight also seems like it is going to go on for many episodes with many small scenes or it might just get interrupted somehow.

[JazzMazz]

Thats kinf of what a lot of people suspected him of being, myself included. The "heat vision" only adds to the impression.

He wasn't using heat vision though. Thats just the effect used to show thats his hitting his opponents at rapid speed.

Really?



The impact points look like burn marks and ar smaller then Jiren's fist radius. The damage looks more akin to rapide fire beam impact then a physical punch.

Yeah, no. Its stated that he was Hit multiple times because he moved to fast for them follow. Nothing in the show suggests its anything more than that.

[TysonWine]

Ribrianne coming to the realization that U2 doesn't have what it takes was a good scene. However, her power level inconsistency is starting to become a problem. She went even with 17. Laughed off SSJ Vegeta. Was one shotted out of her transformation by SSBlue Goku, and can no longer keep pace with base Vegeta. Though, at the same time, she's like a sponge who hasn't taken any lasting damage. Not sure with the end game is with her, but I'd like her to be involved in a meaningful battle that leads to her elimination or someone elses. Her past few appearances have been placeholder battles to waste time in the episode. The threat that she presents decreases every time she's on screen.

The meat of the episode, Jiren vs Hit, was good. I didn't like the ending of their battle though. Was Hit's plan to hold Jiren for the entire last half of the tournament before Jiren started breaking through the time freeze? He could of had the U6 Saiyans assist him. Either way, I thought Hit gave a good account of himself.

I don't think the remaining universes are going about defeating Jiren the right way. You're going to have to deal with him eventually. Ignoring him until he decides to eliminate you will accomplish what exactly? Frieza's the only person we see thinking ahead. Get Goku back on his feet, let him fight Jiren and hope they injure each other enough to be easy pickings. I'd like to see others get scenes where they're piecing together ways on how best to defeat Jiren. Where's the teamwork? You'd think there'd be some camaraderie between universes who form a temporary truce until the big bad is dealt with. Instead they're just wasting energy against each other.

It also seems like Jiren's doing the usual "arrogance will be his downfall," trope. He looked right at Goku and decided not to eliminate him. Let's see how that works out...