Did Toriyama originally...

Son_Gohan · Post by **Son_Gohan** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:59 pm

Want to end it with Gohan killing Majin Buu after he became Mystic?

Cause my friend said that's what Toriyama said in an interview once.

And I already know that he also wanted to end at the Frieza and Cell Saga.

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece · Post by **Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:24 pm

He wanted to end it pretty much at every major battle after the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. That means every saga after he fights Tenshinhan was supposed to be the last one.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:23 pm

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote:He wanted to end it pretty much at every major battle after the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. That means every saga after he fights Tenshinhan was supposed to be the last one.

Actually, I have yet to see any proof of him intending to end it with 23rd Budokai. The only intended endings I've seen proven are Pilaf, Freeza, Cell, and Mystic Gohan Vs. Super Buu.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:17 am

Son_Gohan wrote:Want to end it with Gohan killing Majin Buu after he became Mystic?
Cause my friend said that's what Toriyama said in an interview once.

Friends? Doubtful sources.

And I already know that he also wanted to end at the Freeza and Cell Saga.

Well, if you do... Source? :þ

Xyex wrote:Actually, I have yet to see any proof of him intending to end it with 23rd Budokai.

Really? Didn't he say so?
(no, I mean... I really think he said so in an interview... really!)

The only intended endings I've seen proven are Pilaf, Freeza, Cell, and Mystic Gohan Vs. Super Buu.

"Proven"?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:35 am

Basically, the poor guy was trying to get the hell out any time the story reached a coherent ending.

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece · Post by **Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:34 am

Rocketman wrote:Basically, the poor guy was trying to get the hell out any time the story reached a coherent ending.

Pretty much. I still think (like a giant chunk of people) that it should have ended with Freeza. It even says in his Wiki:

Due to Toriyama's original intention of making Freeza the last major supervillain of the series, Freeza's design is an amalgamation of what he thought monsters looked like in his childhood.

Kurai_Neko · Post by **Kurai_Neko** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:26 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Xyex wrote:The only intended endings I've seen proven are Pilaf, Freeza, Cell, and Mystic Gohan Vs. Super Buu.
"Proven"?

Well, you can kind of see how he was maneuvering the series towards ending with those sagas-- if he'd done some things differently, I could have definitely seen those all being possible endings for the series.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:31 pm

Kurai_Neko wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:
Xyex wrote:The only intended endings I've seen proven are Pilaf, Freeza, Cell, and Mystic Gohan Vs. Super Buu.
"Proven"?

Well, you can kind of see how he was maneuvering the series towards ending with those sagas-- if he'd done some things differently, I could have definitely seen those all being possible endings for the series.

That doesn't necessarily prove that it was Toriyama-sensei's intention. I mean, when I look at it, I feel the same way, but our own opinions and inclinations don't cement something into fact, and to this day, no one has given Oliver something of tangible irrefutable proof to that being the case.

And I can see his point, in that people shouldn't just accept things so easily, from this all the way to anything relating to Dragonball AF.

SonEric84 · Post by **SonEric84** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:39 pm

I've heard that a bunch of times here and other websites back in the day. It'd be nice to know where this information came from or if it's just a rumor.

Kurai_Neko · Post by **Kurai_Neko** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:45 pm

Yeah, I understand how it could be just a rumor that he wanted to stop at those places. Maybe it is just our own opinions and thoughts, but who knows? I have no sources to cite on this information, I can only say what it appears to be in my mind.

Son_Gohan · Post by **Son_Gohan** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:03 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Son_Gohan wrote:Want to end it with Gohan killing Majin Buu after he became Mystic?
Cause my friend said that's what Toriyama said in an interview once.
Friends? Doubtful sources.

Don't worry, I'm not that naive.

It's just this rumor, has me very inclined to believe. Considering, after looking at the second part of the series, Gohan was supposed to be the new main character, by the looks of it.

So I'm assuming Toriyama wanted to end it with Gohan being the hero and new guardian of Earth, and Goku remaining dead, like he has previously... but TOEI and the Goku fanboys, pressured him into extending the series more so and making Goku the hero again.

That's what I think at least. If anyone has an interview of him saying something like that, than that would really help.

DemonKingPiccolo · Post by **DemonKingPiccolo** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:46 am

I've definintely heard both the Pilaf and Freeza endings. However, I don't have a source for that.

But I did hear that Toriyama didn't expect Dragon Ball to do as well as it did, so he decided to continue with it after the Pilaf arc.

Ending at the Freeza arc would've made perfect sense: Goku becoming the "Legendary" Super Saiya-jin and defeating the most powerful tyrant in the Universe at the time. And I wouldn't doubt ending it there as Toriyama's intention, Kaiosama is utterly fearful of Freeza's power, but then we discover later that he had dealt with Buu many millenia earlier, and Freeza was absolutely nothing compared to him. I heard that he wanted Goku to die against Freeza, as the only Super Saiyan in the universe and follow the legend of the original Super Saiyan (Being destroyed after you've achieved unfathomable power).

Goku isn't Toriyama's favorite character. And he'd been trying to make him fade into the background since the end of the Freeza saga: first by making Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo stronger then him. Then making Gohan defeat Cell and transcend Goku, killing Goku off for (what he wanted to be) good, and then creating Goten to replace Goku. Furthermore, he attempted to retire Goku again by making Gohan, Gotenks, Buu and Vegetto stronger then Goku, and finally ending the series by making Goku find a predecessor in the form of a re-incarnated enemy. The evidence to Toriyama wanting to end the series ages before it did, is all there in front of us, it's just most of us don't see it. Toriyama was trying to get rid of Goku for the second half of Dragon Ball Z, but couldn't because Goku was all that the fans wanted. Finally he had to call it quits because he was exhausted, and it was taking up too much time in his life.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:04 am

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:Toriyama was trying to get rid of Goku for the second half of Dragon Ball Z, but couldn't because Goku was all that the fans wanted.

And that's what they got in GT, bet they were happy with themselves then. >>

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:59 am

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:Toriyama was trying to get rid of Goku for the second half of Dragon Ball Z, but couldn't because Goku was all that the fans wanted.

It wasn't that they wanted Goku, it's that they didn't want Gohan.

DemonKingPiccolo · Post by **DemonKingPiccolo** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:32 am

Rocketman wrote:
DemonKingPiccolo wrote:Toriyama was trying to get rid of Goku for the second half of Dragon Ball Z, but couldn't because Goku was all that the fans wanted.
It wasn't that they wanted Goku, it's that they didn't want Gohan.

That is a creepy smiley, but your point is true, but my point being that they wanted Goku over anyone else. Toriyama wanted Gohan, no one else did.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:02 am

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:That is a creepy smiley, but your point is true, but my point being that they wanted Goku over anyone else. Toriyama wanted Gohan, no one else did.

When first watching that arc...I did.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:37 am

Conan the SSJ wrote:
DemonKingPiccolo wrote:That is a creepy smiley, but your point is true, but my point being that they wanted Goku over anyone else. Toriyama wanted Gohan, no one else did.
When first watching that arc...I did.

I wanted Gohan...just not whiny, annoying Cell-saga Gohan. I much prefer Buu-saga Gohan.

For that story in particular, I would have preferred pretty much anyone besides those two be the hero against Cell.

TheGreatness25 · Post by **TheGreatness25** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:14 am

I don't think the Frieza Saga or Cell Saga had a normal ending...neither did Majin Buu for that matter. Actually, the Cell Saga would be most appropriate. Imagine if it did end at the Frieza Saga...Goku's "dead," but then Porunga tells them that he is alive and well, training somewhere. Not a solid ending to me! Cell Saga, yeah, could've worked. Majin Buu Saga...well...not venturing off into that fight with Uub! What kind of an ending calls for him getting Uub, and saying, "hey, how about I train you!? The Earth might need you some day!" "Okay Goku! Wow! Let's train!" Would be dumb if it ended there lol

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:36 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:I don't think the Freeza Saga or Cell Saga had a normal ending...neither did Majin Buu for that matter. Actually, the Cell Saga would be most appropriate. Imagine if it did end at the Freeza Saga...Goku's "dead," but then Porunga tells them that he is alive and well, training somewhere. Not a solid ending to me!

Why does so many people think that the Freeza saga would have ended exactly the same way if it had been the end of the series?

TheGreatness25 wrote:Majin Buu Saga...well...not venturing off into that fight with Uub! What kind of an ending calls for him getting Uub, and saying, "hey, how about I train you!? The Earth might need you some day!" "Okay Goku! Wow! Let's train!" Would be dumb if it ended there lol

Well, seeing as how that is how it ended....

TheGreatness25 · Post by **TheGreatness25** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:10 am

Yeah but everyone expected a continuation in the series, which is why GT came to be...I personally liked GT for only one reason, it was the continuation of my favorite show of all time lol. I didn't even pay attention to how lousy the story was, and I liked Vegeta with short hair. On top of that, it didn't really go against anyone's character, I mean in the very last 2 episodes of DBZ, Gohan is the nerdy scholar (exactly the way he was in GT), Videl settled down and wasn't rowdy anymore (like in GT), Trunks and Goten were obsessed with girls (like in GT...except Trunks was Bulma's successor), and Vegeta was the leather jacket-wearing city slicker...which was continued in GT. I didn't care about the story, I just wanted to see the next chapter. Plus, Super Saiyan 4 was awesome.

Kanzenshuu

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