Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

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BWri
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by BWri » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:56 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Asura wrote:
BWri wrote: I believe Jiren is hovering in his meditation pose, but I suppose Jiren defies many universal laws like time :roll:
I'd say that's nitpicking. I wouldn't really equate slightly floating/hovering off the ground while meditating to equate to flying. Most people I see outraged at the "writers forgot character's can't fly!" rule is people just failing to notice that characters are either jumping or you can see them slowly floating downwards in the air via the background moving up.
It might be nitpicking if the rule were actually "no flying allowed," but in actuality Daishinkan precisely said, "Skills to prevent falling, such as floating, cannot be used," emphasis mine. It was never said that flying was against the rules, only that any similar skill that might prevent falling out of the arena couldn't be used. Goku tested this by trying to fly and found that he was unable to fly. So, yeah, Jiren can levitate but Goku can't fly, because Jiren's just that powerful. And also because the writers are ass.
@Asura, I just want to second what Zeigander said but to also agree that some people in the community forgot that these characters can super jump and basically take their sweet ass time falling just like in Dragon Ball. But even still, I believe there were a couple of instances where characters without wings were legitimately flying. I admittedly can't think of the scenes off the top of my head, but I do remember thinking "why can this character fly" and shaking my head.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:17 pm

Well, even Krillin's saving of Android 18 is pretty dumb and shouldn't have worked. He used a ki blast to prevent himself and Android 18 from falling. If that's not a "skill to prevent falling," then I don't know what is, and obviously Krillin is not on Jiren's level, or above Goku's either.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Zagacious » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:24 pm

Asura wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
Asura wrote:Vegeta is interesting this arc? More than he's ever been? In what sense? He was almost completely absent for the large majority of the arc until the tournament actually started, and since then his only highlights have been him fighting Frost and Ribrianne, and regressing as a character back to his dumb prideful "I AM VEGETA-SAMA I AM THE BEST EVER I WILL WIN THIS TOURNAMENT MYSELF" shit, and him refusing to give energy when even Freeza gave energy just makes him look even worse. Vegeta's character has been absolute trash this arc, which is why I'm saying they may as well just eliminate him now since they aren't even going to let him fight Jiren, or have a rematch with Hit.
It's one of those things people keep saying on the forums over and over again until people start to actually believe it's true, which is pretty funny cause it's true Vegeta was pretty much absent for a huge majority of the arc :lol: like people actually believing the flying rule is still being followed when it's extremely obvious the writers just completely forgot about it.
Give me one example of the characters flying that wasn't caused by the force of a ki blast, as in the case of the spirit bomb pushing Goku back in the air. Every single time someone says they broke the flying rule they fail to see that characters are either jumping or floating downwards.
I'm not going to go into it here but there are several examples, I'm probably going to create a Flying Thread just for that so look out for it, because there are so many occurrences where they clearly weren't using momentum or anything but they are just floating there. One of the worst examples is the Android 17 episode when both of them just float in from a standstill, but it happened several times in that episode alone. Goku was also flying several times in the special. Before he was even pushing the spirit bomb between him and Jiren he was already flying for a long period of time before that, so it's not excusable at that point.

I understand that it's honestly not a big deal, but they're just asking for it when they make up a rule like no flying and then you see people flying all the time, and yes there are some occurrences where it's just momentum/pushing ki, but I'd say at least half of them are totally unexplained.
Ziegander wrote:Well, even Krillin's saving of Android 18 is pretty dumb and shouldn't have worked. He used a ki blast to prevent himself and Android 18 from falling. If that's not a "skill to prevent falling," then I don't know what is, and obviously Krillin is not on Jiren's level, or above Goku's either.
That's an example that the 'flying' is entirely explained and is clearly not flying, I'm not talking about instances like that. I'm talking about ones like the Android 17 episode where they consistently 'fly in' to battle from a stand still, several times throughout the episode. The whole time I was thinking "Okay I guess they can fly because their ki is artificial ? or IDK" but ever since then I've kept a close eye on the flying and noticed it very often.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:41 pm

Zagacious wrote:
Ziegander wrote:Well, even Krillin's saving of Android 18 is pretty dumb and shouldn't have worked. He used a ki blast to prevent himself and Android 18 from falling. If that's not a "skill to prevent falling," then I don't know what is, and obviously Krillin is not on Jiren's level, or above Goku's either.
That's an example that the 'flying' is entirely explained and is clearly not flying, I'm not talking about instances like that. I'm talking about ones like the Android 17 episode where they consistently 'fly in' to battle from a stand still, several times throughout the episode. The whole time I was thinking "Okay I guess they can fly because their ki is artificial ? or IDK" but ever since then I've kept a close eye on the flying and noticed it very often.
Well, I understand that, but the Daishinkan made it very clear "skills to prevent falling cannot be used." Both Krillin AND 18 should have fallen out of the ring had he not used a ki blast to propel them back into the ring. Seems like that should not have worked. Also, logically, what is he propelling himself against if he's just blasting ki into an eternal, infinite void? Things aren't adding up.

On the topic of Jiren's hover meditation, not that I expect the show to ever address this, because clearly the writers do. not. care, but an explanation came to me. He's projecting a forcefield of massive ki power. If the field is extending beyond him by a couple feet or so, by its very nature it ought to also extend below him, pushing him off the ground. It's not a skill that would prevent falling, though, because it's pushing against the arena.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Zagacious » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:46 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
Ziegander wrote:Well, even Krillin's saving of Android 18 is pretty dumb and shouldn't have worked. He used a ki blast to prevent himself and Android 18 from falling. If that's not a "skill to prevent falling," then I don't know what is, and obviously Krillin is not on Jiren's level, or above Goku's either.
That's an example that the 'flying' is entirely explained and is clearly not flying, I'm not talking about instances like that. I'm talking about ones like the Android 17 episode where they consistently 'fly in' to battle from a stand still, several times throughout the episode. The whole time I was thinking "Okay I guess they can fly because their ki is artificial ? or IDK" but ever since then I've kept a close eye on the flying and noticed it very often.
Well, I understand that, but the Daishinkan made it very clear "skills to prevent falling cannot be used." Both Krillin AND 18 should have fallen out of the ring had he not used a ki blast to propel them back into the ring. Seems like that should not have worked. Also, logically, what is he propelling himself against if he's just blasting ki into an eternal, infinite void? Things aren't adding up.

On the topic of Jiren's hover meditation, not that I expect the show to ever address this, because clearly the writers do. not. care, but an explanation came to me. He's projecting a forcefield of massive ki power. If the field is extending beyond him by a couple feet or so, by its very nature it ought to also extend below him, pushing him off the ground. It's not a skill that would prevent falling, though, because it's pushing against the arena.
Yeah I see what you mean but I think since the ki is 'touching' the arena it's not really considered flying or floating, yes it is used to prevent falling but in the same way a very long arm would.

The Jiren floating I don't really care about, even though it's kind of strange, I'm making an entire thread about this Flying Inconsistency and I'm going to go into my headcanon explanation of why I think Grand Priest is allowing flying in some occasions (when it doesn't affect ring-outs) because of how often people have been blatantly flying.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Jigurashi » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:23 pm

Nobody there left to fight Vegeta? There's several opponents left. Vegeta being made to fight the same people as Goku? Hardly. Most of the major opponents Goku fights they usually have him far outperform Vegeta against them in the end scheme of things. Vegeta being far inferior to Goku is nothing new. After Goku left the Rosat, he was leaps and bounds above Vegeta until a temporary rage boost against Beerus and even then, the SSG ritual further makes Goku far above him. Vegeta catches up in the RoF Saga, but in the very next saga, Goku gets SSBKKx10 and is above Vegeta since. Now he has not only SSBKKx20, but UI as well. Feels like end of Namek with how wide the gap is between the two. It doesn't really bother me that Vegeta is leagues below Goku, and I don't see why anyone is complaining about Vegeta not fighting anyone worthwhile. This tournament isn't over yet and there are still plenty of people to fight. Whether the ending of this tournament/saga has a twist or not, the way 111 ended makes it obvious a large majority of this tournament is pretty much set up for Goku VS Jiren II.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:46 am

Vegeta has the most eliminations out of anyone. If he went out now, it would be fine.

It's embarrassing; we're a day out from the next episode and I've thought of yet another way they could've avoided the "why didn't they just knock Jiren off" plothole: swap the two of them around. Make it so Hit has his back to the edge and Jiren's further in. Hit can't move away from the edge because he needs to use his full power to keep Jiren frozen, the Saiyans can't do anything to Jiren because the ground's too solid underneath him, and they have to run off and fight other people so nobody can stroll up and knock Hit off while he's vulnerable. Then, when Jiren does break out, Hit's so close to the edge that he can be sent out swiftly and efficiently instead of the overlong beatdown and reuse of episode 100 footage that we got instead.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by buutenks » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:49 pm

I wasnt that interested in this episode, it was fine, but i knew from the get go Hit will lose and the fact that Hit got eliminated is a bit sad, since he was one that gave good fights in this tourney. Apart from Goku vs Jiren,Hit vs Dyspo and u9 vs Goku n Vegeta, every fight was lackluster, to me anyways.

Edit: Roshi vs Bird guy was entertaining, and all Freeza scenes were awesome.

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by Noah » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:06 pm

Kataphrut wrote:Vegeta has the most eliminations out of anyone. If he went out now, it would be fine.
Not really, he just eliminated a bunch of fodders. Vegeta is the deuteragonist of the series, so we expect him to aim big. He's not like Krillin or Roshi, characters we know that could be useful but will definitely not have great battles with the powerhouses of the tournament.
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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by KingKaash » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:17 am

Very hard to follow up the Episode 109-110 special but this episode did a great job! Honestly I'm shocked that Hit was somewhat jobbed by Jiren at this point of the ToP. People have been saying since the introduction of Jiren that Hit would get jobbed by Jiren but I never bought it. So I thought Hit would survive this fight with Jiren somehow. Especially since Jiren's overwhelming power had already been displayed by beating up Ultra Instinct Goku with relative ease. I honestly can't believe Hit is on the sideline. I think it's a bit early to lose a character of Hit's level. Hit should've gotten a few more good eliminations of importance before losing to Jiren. I really wanted to see Hit vs Android 17 but that's not going to happen now.

For the fight itself, I like Hit's use of strategies. The struggle between Hit trying to contain Jiren in the Time-Skip cage and Jiren pushing himself to break free was displayed very well. You could feel the struggle. And the idea of a Time-Skip Cage is brilliant by the writers.

The whole eyes flashing red for Jiren and then multiple attacks being taken by both Goku and Hit is interesting. I'm curious if this is just an attack of if something happens that we can't see

Image

Image
"Gohan, let it go. It is not a sin to fight for the right cause. There are those who words alone will not reach. Cell is such a being. I know how you feel Gohan, you are gentle, you do not like to hurt. I know because I too have learned these feelings. But it is because you cherish life that you must protect it. Please drop your restraints. Protect the life I once loved. You have the strength, my scanners sensed it..." -Android 16

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:00 am

KingKaash wrote:Very hard to follow up the Episode 109-110 special but this episode did a great job! Honestly I'm shocked that Hit was somewhat jobbed by Jiren at this point of the ToP. People have been saying since the introduction of Jiren that Hit would get jobbed by Jiren but I never bought it. So I thought Hit would survive this fight with Jiren somehow. Especially since Jiren's overwhelming power had already been displayed by beating up Ultra Instinct Goku with relative ease. I honestly can't believe Hit is on the sideline. I think it's a bit early to lose a character of Hit's level. Hit should've gotten a few more good eliminations of importance before losing to Jiren. I really wanted to see Hit vs Android 17 but that's not going to happen now.

For the fight itself, I like Hit's use of strategies. The struggle between Hit trying to contain Jiren in the Time-Skip cage and Jiren pushing himself to break free was displayed very well. You could feel the struggle. And the idea of a Time-Skip Cage is brilliant by the writers.

The whole eyes flashing red for Jiren and then multiple attacks being taken by both Goku and Hit is interesting. I'm curious if this is just an attack of if something happens that we can't see

Image

Image
I think his eyes flashing red is simply a visual motive showing that his using an attack faster than the eye can see.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

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Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by KingKaash » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:00 am

JazzMazz wrote:
KingKaash wrote:Very hard to follow up the Episode 109-110 special but this episode did a great job! Honestly I'm shocked that Hit was somewhat jobbed by Jiren at this point of the ToP. People have been saying since the introduction of Jiren that Hit would get jobbed by Jiren but I never bought it. So I thought Hit would survive this fight with Jiren somehow. Especially since Jiren's overwhelming power had already been displayed by beating up Ultra Instinct Goku with relative ease. I honestly can't believe Hit is on the sideline. I think it's a bit early to lose a character of Hit's level. Hit should've gotten a few more good eliminations of importance before losing to Jiren. I really wanted to see Hit vs Android 17 but that's not going to happen now.

For the fight itself, I like Hit's use of strategies. The struggle between Hit trying to contain Jiren in the Time-Skip cage and Jiren pushing himself to break free was displayed very well. You could feel the struggle. And the idea of a Time-Skip Cage is brilliant by the writers.

The whole eyes flashing red for Jiren and then multiple attacks being taken by both Goku and Hit is interesting. I'm curious if this is just an attack of if something happens that we can't see

Image

Image
I think his eyes flashing red is simply a visual motive showing that his using an attack faster than the eye can see.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
Ahh thanks for the clarification. That clearly shows he's punching but in the other gifs it's meant to be too fast to see
"Gohan, let it go. It is not a sin to fight for the right cause. There are those who words alone will not reach. Cell is such a being. I know how you feel Gohan, you are gentle, you do not like to hurt. I know because I too have learned these feelings. But it is because you cherish life that you must protect it. Please drop your restraints. Protect the life I once loved. You have the strength, my scanners sensed it..." -Android 16

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