Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Green]

Does Toyotaro even follow the SEG multipliers, that we know of?

Average Kaioshin: 1 (around 50% CG Goku in my book)
Goku ~ 3rd Form Frost: 2
Piccolo: >2
Tired Frost: 3
True Form Frost: 4.5
SS Goku: 8

Something like this sounds way more plausible than having Goku (and consequently Piccolo) absurdly strong, not to mention it doesn't make much sense considering he said Trunks surpassed Gohan and not some other absurdly large level we'd have using x50, also the whole super-powered SS2 form and the Black-Vegeta fight. I expect that having Freezer in the manga will clear up the gaps Toyotaro has and how he ranks the Base Saiyans.

[Lord Beerus]

I don't know if anyone in the thread is aware of this, but the preview image for the upcoming episode has been released and it is very intriguing in giving a perspective of Goku's current strength in his base form:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[wolflonnie]

If Goku will give SSJ2 Caulifla an hard time, I'll start to think that the SSJ multipliers are very low in Super.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't know if anyone in the thread is aware of this, but the preview image for the upcoming episode has been released and it is very intriguing in giving a perspective of Goku's current strength in his base form:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I don't see what's so intriguing. Although, I'm having a hard time seeing how THIS is supposed to help Goku out

[BlueBasilisk]

I don't know if anyone in the thread is aware of this, but the preview image for the upcoming episode has been released and it is very intriguing in giving a perspective of Goku's current strength in his base form:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I don't see what's so intriguing. Although, I'm having a hard time seeing how THIS is supposed to help Goku out

My guess is that he'll start using or trying to use Ultra Instinct in his base form like Beerus did in the manga when fighting the other 11 gods.

[HeroR]

If Goku will give SSJ2 Caulifla an hard time, I'll start to think that the SSJ multipliers are very low in Super.

We’ve seen the multipliers in Super with Jiren.

Super Saiyan - no sell

Super Saiyan 2 - slightly move Jiren’s head.

Super Saiyan God - Jiren uses a finger to block.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan - Jiren moves and attack.

[Lord Frieza]

If Goku will give SSJ2 Caulifla an hard time, I'll start to think that the SSJ multipliers are very low in Super.

We’ve seen the multipliers in Super with Jiren.

Super Saiyan - no sell

Super Saiyan 2 - slightly move Jiren’s head.

Super Saiyan God - Jiren uses a finger to block.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan - Jiren moves and attack.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Kaioh-Ken X20 - Jiren tanks hits and speed blitzs.

Edit:

Mastery of Self-Movment - Jiren intreasted.

[apex_pretador]

I don't know if anyone in the thread is aware of this, but the preview image for the upcoming episode has been released and it is very intriguing in giving a perspective of Goku's current strength in his base form:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku might be still weakened

[Hugo Boss]

If Goku will give SSJ2 Caulifla an hard time, I'll start to think that the SSJ multipliers are very low in Super.

We’ve seen the multipliers in Super with Jiren.

Super Saiyan - no sell

Super Saiyan 2 - slightly move Jiren’s head.

Super Saiyan God - Jiren uses a finger to block.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan - Jiren moves and attack.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Kaioh-Ken X20 - Jiren tanks hits and speed blitzs.

Edit:

Mastery of Self-Movment - Jiren intreasted.

Base form - can’t even touch Jiren

About Vegetto vs. Daishinkan, I think the manga kind of established they are above Beerus (Vegetto Blue didn’t even use the completed form, so he could be much far ahead of his showed level), which alone is enough to compare them but not to the extent of saying one will definitely be stronger than the other.

[larzooma]

HeroR, I made some adjustments to my tier list. Now I'm wondering if Android 17 should be above Dyspo. Hard to tell honestly.

Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Dyspo
Android 17 > / = Kale
Ultimate Gohan
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
Super Buu
Mr. Buu

I didn't bother listing a lot of characters / transformations between Piccolo and SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga), but there's a handful of them from the tournament. Piccolo > various fighters > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga).

Honestly, I think you people either hold a blatant disrespect for Piccolo, causing you to overlook recent events, or you're pathological in your ability to underestimate him.


Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Ultimate Gohan
Dyspo
Android 17 > / = Kale
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
Piccolo
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost

I underlined the two movements I made, the first to Ultimate Gohan and the second to Piccolo. From what we've seen in 88, Piccolo is at least SSJ2 level. There's on way with the significant boosts he's made, which is explicitly stated in 88, he's still on par with Final Form Frost. A character that admitedly lost power since the U6 tournament. Not to mention, Gohan is shown to be close to, if not equal to, Goku in base form. If that's true, Piccolo was able to soundly beat Gohan at 100x the strength in ep. 88. He's clearly above the Sayians at base and Final Form Frieza. At the very least, he's current SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta/Gohan level, and most likely much stronger. We've yet to see an example of his true power. In regards to Gohan, we saw a much clearer example of him competeing with a full powered SSJB Goku for at least a few blows prior to Goku using KK. In the spar between 17 and Goku, 17 proved he's strong enough to at least force Goku to have to transform into SSJB. How little power Goku needed in the form, and how much 17 kept hidden is a complete mystery. He's definitely behind Ultimate Gohan in terms of power.

[Lord Frieza]

My highly thought out and intricately detailed diagram of how a warrior in the ToP may compare their power to Jiren.

[HeroR]

HeroR, I made some adjustments to my tier list. Now I'm wondering if Android 17 should be above Dyspo. Hard to tell honestly.

Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Dyspo
Android 17 > / = Kale
Ultimate Gohan
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
Super Buu
Mr. Buu

I didn't bother listing a lot of characters / transformations between Piccolo and SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga), but there's a handful of them from the tournament. Piccolo > various fighters > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga).

Honestly, I think you people either hold a blatant disrespect for Piccolo, causing you to overlook recent events, or you're pathological in your ability to underestimate him.


Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Ultimate Gohan
Dyspo
Android 17 > / = Kale
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
Piccolo
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost

I underlined the two movements I made, the first to Ultimate Gohan and the second to Piccolo. From what we've seen in 88, Piccolo is at least SSJ2 level. There's on way with the significant boosts he's made, which is explicitly stated in 88, he's still on par with Final Form Frost. A character that admitedly lost power since the U6 tournament. Not to mention, Gohan is shown to be close to, if not equal to, Goku in base form. If that's true, Piccolo was able to soundly beat Gohan at 100x the strength in ep. 88. He's clearly above the Sayians at base and Final Form Frieza. At the very least, he's current SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta/Gohan level, and most likely much stronger. We've yet to see an example of his true power. In regards to Gohan, we saw a much clearer example of him competeing with a full powered SSJB Goku for at least a few blows prior to Goku using KK. In the spar between 17 and Goku, 17 proved he's strong enough to at least force Goku to have to transform into SSJB. How little power Goku needed in the form, and how much 17 kept hidden is a complete mystery. He's definitely behind Ultimate Gohan in terms of power.

Super Saiyan 2 isn’t a level. It’s a multiplier of a Saiyan’s base form. Until 90, Gohan’s base form was weaker than Goku’s. We know this since Gohan was stated to be much stronger than before in 90, yet his base was only equal to Goku’s. So base form Gohan in 88 is weaker and it effects his Super Saiyan forms.

On top of that, Piccolo used a charged energy blast agains Goku and Goku tanked it without going Super Saiyan. So saying Piccolo is Super Saiyan 2 Goku’s level is extremely unlikely.

Frost was talking BS about being weaker since Hit confirmed that Frost got stronger and Frost even admitting that he was lying. On top of that, one of the writers of Super put Frost above Piccolo in this arc.

Gohan had trouble with Super Saiyan 2 in Ulimate and had to beg Goku to used his full power several times, while 17 forced Goku after he juggled him in Super Saiyan. Nothing puts Gohan ahead of 17. At best, they’re equal and that’s high-balling Gohan.

[larzooma]

HeroR, I made some adjustments to my tier list. Now I'm wondering if Android 17 should be above Dyspo. Hard to tell honestly.

Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Dyspo
Android 17 > / = Kale
Ultimate Gohan
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
Super Buu
Mr. Buu

I didn't bother listing a lot of characters / transformations between Piccolo and SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga), but there's a handful of them from the tournament. Piccolo > various fighters > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga).

Honestly, I think you people either hold a blatant disrespect for Piccolo, causing you to overlook recent events, or you're pathological in your ability to underestimate him.


Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Ultimate Gohan
Dyspo
Android 17 > / = Kale
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
Piccolo
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost

I underlined the two movements I made, the first to Ultimate Gohan and the second to Piccolo. From what we've seen in 88, Piccolo is at least SSJ2 level. There's on way with the significant boosts he's made, which is explicitly stated in 88, he's still on par with Final Form Frost. A character that admitedly lost power since the U6 tournament. Not to mention, Gohan is shown to be close to, if not equal to, Goku in base form. If that's true, Piccolo was able to soundly beat Gohan at 100x the strength in ep. 88. He's clearly above the Sayians at base and Final Form Frieza. At the very least, he's current SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta/Gohan level, and most likely much stronger. We've yet to see an example of his true power. In regards to Gohan, we saw a much clearer example of him competeing with a full powered SSJB Goku for at least a few blows prior to Goku using KK. In the spar between 17 and Goku, 17 proved he's strong enough to at least force Goku to have to transform into SSJB. How little power Goku needed in the form, and how much 17 kept hidden is a complete mystery. He's definitely behind Ultimate Gohan in terms of power.

Super Saiyan 2 isn’t a level. It’s a multiplier of a Saiyan’s base form. Until 90, Gohan’s base form was weaker than Goku’s. We know this since Gohan was stated to be much stronger than before in 90, yet his base was only equal to Goku’s. So base form Gohan in 88 is weaker and it effects his Super Saiyan forms.

On top of that, Piccolo used a charged energy blast agains Goku and Goku tanked it without going Super Saiyan. So saying Piccolo is Super Saiyan 2 Goku’s level is extremely unlikely.

Frost was talking BS about being weaker since Hit confirmed that Frost got stronger and Frost even admitting that he was lying. On top of that, one of the writers of Super put Frost above Piccolo in this arc.

Gohan had trouble with Super Saiyan 2 in Ulimate and had to beg Goku to used his full power several times, while 17 forced Goku after he juggled him in Super Saiyan. Nothing puts Gohan ahead of 17. At best, they’re equal and that’s high-balling Gohan.

Piccolo's role in training Gohan was to unlock the mental block preventing him from attaining his true potential. Gohan was already there physically, as Piccolo notes when assessing his power, but he needed to overcome the mental restrictions keeping him from becoming the a warrior at his true potential. Gohan, at the point he faces Piccolo in 88, is at an extremely high level in terms of power, enough so, Piccolo realizes he's reached a point where he's capable of attaining a level he couldn't before this point. The amount of training Gohan undergoes within the limited time between 88 and 90 isn't the reason he can compete with Goku at his base during the spar in 90. Piccolo easily defeated him at SSJ2, and after what seemed like a minimal power up. His only interaction onscreen with Gohan in Ultimate is spent teaching him a lesson. Presumably, he trained with Gohan in his Ultimate form for hours, and he didn't take enough damage to require his sensu bean prior to the 2 vs 2, which can be interpreted to mean he wasn't considerably weaker to keep up with the training at that high level.

Piccolo's attack was meant to push weaker opponents forward, possibly off the edge, and act as a distraction allowing Gohan to knock off the stronger opponent. People have incorrectly used that as an indication of his level compared to Goku. It wasn't a directed energy attack, rather a widespread attack meant to affect multiple opponents.

I've argued this a thousand times, and there's actually a video by a well respected youtuber with the same argument. The spar betwen Gohan and Goku was as much a part of his training as his time with Piccolo. One of the major hindrances to Gohan accessing and using the full potential in his Ultimate form is mental. Gohan starts the fight stating he's at his max power when he transforms into Ultimate. Unlike Goku, Gohan wouldn't state this to test his opponent or throw him off. If you watch the fight closely, you see him power up on 2 more occasions, which precede a clear turn in the fight. The first comes when he's battling SSJ2 Gohan. When he starts getting frustrated with the level his Dad's using against him, he tells him to take it serious, and powers up, which is the clear point he begins overpowering Goku. Once Goku puts some distance between them and goes full SSJB, Gohan powers up again, going far enough to tell Goku he's NOW at his full power and to prepare himself (or something along those lines). This is the point he meets a fully powered SSJB Goku and starts to trade blow for blow. He's only overpowered because Goku goes KK so quickly. Vegeta's reaction to the two at that point can be taken as further proof Gohan's at a new level in terms of power, and Vegeta's Saiyan pride is excited to fell such a high level of power from the two. Gohan's desire to show his Father he's capable of competing with him on a level very few can motivates him to reach into himself and access even more in his Ultimate form.

At best, they're equal, and that's only if 17 truly kept back a good amount of power. All we can possibly say from 17 is he's powerful enough to force Goku to transform. For all we know, Goku could have easily defeated him with low to mid level effort.

[HeroR]

Honestly, I think you people either hold a blatant disrespect for Piccolo, causing you to overlook recent events, or you're pathological in your ability to underestimate him.


Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Ultimate Gohan
Dyspo
Android 17 > / = Kale
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
Piccolo
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost

I underlined the two movements I made, the first to Ultimate Gohan and the second to Piccolo. From what we've seen in 88, Piccolo is at least SSJ2 level. There's on way with the significant boosts he's made, which is explicitly stated in 88, he's still on par with Final Form Frost. A character that admitedly lost power since the U6 tournament. Not to mention, Gohan is shown to be close to, if not equal to, Goku in base form. If that's true, Piccolo was able to soundly beat Gohan at 100x the strength in ep. 88. He's clearly above the Sayians at base and Final Form Frieza. At the very least, he's current SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta/Gohan level, and most likely much stronger. We've yet to see an example of his true power. In regards to Gohan, we saw a much clearer example of him competeing with a full powered SSJB Goku for at least a few blows prior to Goku using KK. In the spar between 17 and Goku, 17 proved he's strong enough to at least force Goku to have to transform into SSJB. How little power Goku needed in the form, and how much 17 kept hidden is a complete mystery. He's definitely behind Ultimate Gohan in terms of power.

Super Saiyan 2 isn’t a level. It’s a multiplier of a Saiyan’s base form. Until 90, Gohan’s base form was weaker than Goku’s. We know this since Gohan was stated to be much stronger than before in 90, yet his base was only equal to Goku’s. So base form Gohan in 88 is weaker and it effects his Super Saiyan forms.

On top of that, Piccolo used a charged energy blast agains Goku and Goku tanked it without going Super Saiyan. So saying Piccolo is Super Saiyan 2 Goku’s level is extremely unlikely.

Frost was talking BS about being weaker since Hit confirmed that Frost got stronger and Frost even admitting that he was lying. On top of that, one of the writers of Super put Frost above Piccolo in this arc.

Gohan had trouble with Super Saiyan 2 in Ulimate and had to beg Goku to used his full power several times, while 17 forced Goku after he juggled him in Super Saiyan. Nothing puts Gohan ahead of 17. At best, they’re equal and that’s high-balling Gohan.

Piccolo's role in training Gohan was to unlock the mental block preventing him from attaining his true potential. Gohan was already there physically, as Piccolo notes when assessing his power, but he needed to overcome the mental restrictions keeping him from becoming the a warrior at his true potential. Gohan, at the point he faces Piccolo in 88, is at an extremely high level in terms of power, enough so, Piccolo realizes he's reached a point where he's capable of attaining a level he couldn't before this point. The amount of training Gohan undergoes within the limited time between 88 and 90 isn't the reason he can compete with Goku at his base during the spar in 90.

Piccolo's attack was meant to push weaker opponents forward, possibly off the edge, and act as a distraction allowing Gohan to knock off the stronger opponent. People have incorrectly used that as an indication of his level compared to Goku. It wasn't a directed energy attack, rather a widespread attack meant to affect multiple opponents.

I've argued this a thousand times, and there's actually a video by a well respected youtuber with the same argument. The spar betwen Gohan and Goku was as much a part of his training as his time with Piccolo. One of the major hindrances to Gohan accessing and using the full potential in his Ultimate form is mental. Gohan starts the fight stating he's at his max power when he transforms into Ultimate. Unlike Goku, Gohan wouldn't state this to test his opponent or throw him off. If you watch the fight closely, you see him power up on 2 more occasions, which precede a clear turn in the fight. The first comes when he's battling SSJ2 Gohan. When he starts getting frustrated with the level his Dad's using against him, he tells him to take it serious, and powers up, which is the clear point he begins overpowering Goku. Once Goku puts some distance between them and goes full SSJB, Gohan powers up again, going far enough to tell Goku he's NOW at his full power and to prepare himself (or something along those lines). This is the point he meets a fully powered SSJB Goku and starts to trade blow for blow. He's only overpowered because Goku goes KK so quickly. Vegeta's reaction to the two at that point can be taken as further proof Gohan's at a new level in terms of power, and Vegeta's Saiyan pride is excited to fell such a high level of power from the two. Gohan's desire to show his Father he's capable of competing with him on a level very few can motivates him to reach into himself and access even more in his Ultimate form.

At best, they're equal, and that's only if 17 truly kept back a good amount of power. All we can possibly say from 17 is he's powerful enough to force Goku to transform. For all we know, Goku could have easily defeated him with low to mid level effort.

No Gohan wasn’t there physically, especially when 90 explictly said Gohan got stronger. Not just him getting rid of a mental block.

Piccolo charged that attack for several seconds and you’re telling me it couldn’t make Goku go Super Saiyan, something he did against Krillin, but Piccole casually strangled Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Piccolo isn’t known for going easy so why charged an attack and it didn’t even move base form Goku, he tanked it. It didn’t even effect multiple opponents since Tien was still in the ring. And we know Piccolo is below Frost per one of the writers who certainly isn’t Super Saiyan 2 Goku’s level.

Someone on YouTube isn’t evidence. Gohan had to begged Goku to used his full power and Goku felt comfortable fighting Gohan as just a Super Saiyan 2 even when Gohan landed several solid blows. Compared to 17 who actually made Goku go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So 17 has a better showing than Gohan.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Who do you guys think are the top 10 strongest fighters in the tournament so far? My list is:

1. Jiren
2. Goku
3. Hit (Jiren confirmed that Goku and Hit are the next strongest after him)
4. Toppo/Freeza
5. Freeza/Toppo
6. Vegeta
7. Kale
8. Android 17
9. Gohan/Dyspo
10. Dyspo/Gohan

[larzooma]

Super Saiyan 2 isn’t a level. It’s a multiplier of a Saiyan’s base form. Until 90, Gohan’s base form was weaker than Goku’s. We know this since Gohan was stated to be much stronger than before in 90, yet his base was only equal to Goku’s. So base form Gohan in 88 is weaker and it effects his Super Saiyan forms.

On top of that, Piccolo used a charged energy blast agains Goku and Goku tanked it without going Super Saiyan. So saying Piccolo is Super Saiyan 2 Goku’s level is extremely unlikely.

Frost was talking BS about being weaker since Hit confirmed that Frost got stronger and Frost even admitting that he was lying. On top of that, one of the writers of Super put Frost above Piccolo in this arc.

Gohan had trouble with Super Saiyan 2 in Ulimate and had to beg Goku to used his full power several times, while 17 forced Goku after he juggled him in Super Saiyan. Nothing puts Gohan ahead of 17. At best, they’re equal and that’s high-balling Gohan.

Piccolo's role in training Gohan was to unlock the mental block preventing him from attaining his true potential. Gohan was already there physically, as Piccolo notes when assessing his power, but he needed to overcome the mental restrictions keeping him from becoming the a warrior at his true potential. Gohan, at the point he faces Piccolo in 88, is at an extremely high level in terms of power, enough so, Piccolo realizes he's reached a point where he's capable of attaining a level he couldn't before this point. The amount of training Gohan undergoes within the limited time between 88 and 90 isn't the reason he can compete with Goku at his base during the spar in 90.

Piccolo's attack was meant to push weaker opponents forward, possibly off the edge, and act as a distraction allowing Gohan to knock off the stronger opponent. People have incorrectly used that as an indication of his level compared to Goku. It wasn't a directed energy attack, rather a widespread attack meant to affect multiple opponents.

I've argued this a thousand times, and there's actually a video by a well respected youtuber with the same argument. The spar betwen Gohan and Goku was as much a part of his training as his time with Piccolo. One of the major hindrances to Gohan accessing and using the full potential in his Ultimate form is mental. Gohan starts the fight stating he's at his max power when he transforms into Ultimate. Unlike Goku, Gohan wouldn't state this to test his opponent or throw him off. If you watch the fight closely, you see him power up on 2 more occasions, which precede a clear turn in the fight. The first comes when he's battling SSJ2 Gohan. When he starts getting frustrated with the level his Dad's using against him, he tells him to take it serious, and powers up, which is the clear point he begins overpowering Goku. Once Goku puts some distance between them and goes full SSJB, Gohan powers up again, going far enough to tell Goku he's NOW at his full power and to prepare himself (or something along those lines). This is the point he meets a fully powered SSJB Goku and starts to trade blow for blow. He's only overpowered because Goku goes KK so quickly. Vegeta's reaction to the two at that point can be taken as further proof Gohan's at a new level in terms of power, and Vegeta's Saiyan pride is excited to fell such a high level of power from the two. Gohan's desire to show his Father he's capable of competing with him on a level very few can motivates him to reach into himself and access even more in his Ultimate form.

At best, they're equal, and that's only if 17 truly kept back a good amount of power. All we can possibly say from 17 is he's powerful enough to force Goku to transform. For all we know, Goku could have easily defeated him with low to mid level effort.

No Gohan wasn’t there physically, especially when 90 explictly said Gohan got stronger. Not just him getting rid of a mental block.

Piccolo charged that attack for several seconds and you’re telling me it couldn’t make Goku go Super Saiyan, something he did against Krillin, but Piccole casually strangled Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Piccolo isn’t known for going easy so why charged an attack and it didn’t even move base form Goku, he tanked it. It didn’t even effect multiple opponents since Tien was still in the ring. And we know Piccolo is below Frost per one of the writers who certainly isn’t Super Saiyan 2 Goku’s level.

Someone on YouTube isn’t evidence. Gohan had to begged Goku to used his full power and Goku felt comfortable fighting Gohan as just a Super Saiyan 2 even when Gohan landed several solid blows. Compared to 17 who actually made Goku go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So 17 has a better showing than Gohan.

Gohan didn't make any physical gains in the very brief time he spent training with Piccolo. The lessons Piccolo taught Gohan while they fought is the reason he achieved his Ultimate form again.

The amount of time spent charging the attack means nothing. If it's an attack meant to cover a wide area to push fighters of a certain level off the edge, while both testing the power of others and distracting them to allow an attack from Gohan, then the time spent charging does nothing to indicate Piccolo's level of power.

The youtuber noticing the actual happening of the fight isn't the argument, rather how the fight actually progressed clearly showcases Gohan increasing in power to eventually match his Father at full SSJB. At the moment Gohan asks Goku to take the fight more seriously, you can see him start handling Goku after powering up. He unleashes even more power and tells Goku he's about to show him the true level of his power, which comes directly before he starts trading blows with SSJB Goku. I believe 17's much more powerful than what we've seen as well, but Gohan demonstarted a much higher level during his spar.

[CJStriker_CBR]

Who do you guys think are the top 10 strongest fighters in the tournament so far? My list is:

1. Jiren
2. Goku
3. Hit (Jiren confirmed that Goku and Hit are the next strongest after him)
4. Toppo/Freeza
5. Freeza/Toppo
6. Vegeta
7. Kale
8. Android 17
9. Gohan/Dyspo
10. Dyspo/Gohan

Intersteting Question Hakaishin Liquir, So I will answer with Mine as I see things right now, but they are easy to change;

1.) Jiren
2.) Goku
3.) Toppo
4.) Hit
5.) Freeza
6.) Vegeta
7.) Dyspo
8.) Ribrianne/Android 17
9.) Kale
10.) Gohan

Honorable Mention: Damon and Gamisaras!

I am putting Damon and Gamisaras on Honorable Mention cause of the possibilities behind them right now, but until I see what they can do I can't do much higher. But I am believing that Damon and Gamisaras are going to Shot-Up this list pretty fast!

I have a Tie for 8th cause both Ribrianne and Android 17 where even in power at their last match.

Even Thought Hit is out he is still an Important Fighter that set a standard.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Who do you guys think are the top 10 strongest fighters in the tournament so far? My list is:

1. Jiren
2. Goku
3. Hit (Jiren confirmed that Goku and Hit are the next strongest after him)
4. Toppo/Freeza
5. Freeza/Toppo
6. Vegeta
7. Kale
8. Android 17
9. Gohan/Dyspo
10. Dyspo/Gohan

Intersteting Question Hakaishin Liquir, So I will answer with Mine as I see things right now, but they are easy to change;

1.) Jiren
2.) Goku
3.) Toppo
4.) Hit
5.) Freeza
6.) Vegeta
7.) Dyspo
8.) Ribrianne/Android 17
9.) Kale
10.) Gohan

Honorable Mention: Damon and Gamisaras!

I am putting Damon and Gamisaras on Honorable Mention cause of the possibilities behind them right now, but until I see what they can do I can't do much higher. But I am believing that Damon and Gamisaras are going to Shot-Up this list pretty fast!

I have a Tie for 8th cause both Ribrianne and Android 17 where even in power at their last match.

Even Thought Hit is out he is still an Important Fighter that set a standard.

Why do you think that Toppo is above Hit? Jiren didn't think that Dyspo or Toppo could handle Goku and Hit.

[CJStriker_CBR]

Who do you guys think are the top 10 strongest fighters in the tournament so far? My list is:

1. Jiren
2. Goku
3. Hit (Jiren confirmed that Goku and Hit are the next strongest after him)
4. Toppo/Freeza
5. Freeza/Toppo
6. Vegeta
7. Kale
8. Android 17
9. Gohan/Dyspo
10. Dyspo/Gohan

Intersteting Question Hakaishin Liquir, So I will answer with Mine as I see things right now, but they are easy to change;

1.) Jiren
2.) Goku
3.) Toppo
4.) Hit
5.) Freeza
6.) Vegeta
7.) Dyspo
8.) Ribrianne/Android 17
9.) Kale
10.) Gohan

Honorable Mention: Damon and Gamisaras!

I am putting Damon and Gamisaras on Honorable Mention cause of the possibilities behind them right now, but until I see what they can do I can't do much higher. But I am believing that Damon and Gamisaras are going to Shot-Up this list pretty fast!

I have a Tie for 8th cause both Ribrianne and Android 17 where even in power at their last match.

Even Thought Hit is out he is still an Important Fighter that set a standard.

Why do you think that Toppo is above Hit? Jiren didn't think that Dyspo or Toppo could handle Goku and Hit.

Honestly those 2 are interchangeable to be frank, I had a hardtime figuring out who was above the other since they where so close IMO, due to Toppo's showing against Goku and Hit's showing at the U6 Tournament, it was hard for me to decide. Mainly it was a shot of a choose, really they are both more interchangeable and easy Hit can be above Toppo IMO.

[Bullza]

Keep in mind, Shin was stated to be the weakest Supreme Kai in U7 in both the manga and anime. In the anime, South Supreme Kai could trade blows with Kid Buu.

Oh yeah, some Kai's could be much stronger than Shin. We do know that Zamasu was stronger than any of the other Kai's so that's a bit of reference there.

Zamasu was how strong in the manga? Weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was said so weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. He might even be weaker than Super Saiyan Goku seeing as he powered down to that form.

Super Saiyan Goku > Zamasu > Goku > All other Supreme Kai's.

Maybe.