Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

Viz has now translated the chapter so here's some comments to make.

- Rumsshi has the most powerful lungs in all the universes. He was able to briefly paralyse some of the Gods of Destruction and knocked out those at the Supreme Kai level. Goku said he couldn't feel anything but was never knocked out so as mentioned he is above them.

- Beerus and Quitela were the last two standing (not including Belmod who was playing possum) and Quitela seemed to know Beerus would be one of the last standing.

- Grand Priest stopped Beerus and Quitela's punches with a finger.

- Goku isn't confident in fighting a God of Destruction. He's probably weaker than them all.

- Goku says he can't sense the power of Toppo or the Gods of Destruction. That conflicts with the anime where he was supposed to be at a level he could sense God Ki.

- Super Saiyan 3 Goku can't land a hand on a suppressed Toppo.

- Goku turns into a Super Saiyan God. The other Gods seem amazed. Toppo powers up, he might have God Ki, I think that's what he was getting at.

- Beerus says Goku is a match for Toppo as a Super Saiyan God.

- Goku turns Blue and loses in one attack but Toppo actually says that he let his guard down and that if he hadn't countered the attack didn't think he would have won. So perhaps they actually are equal or on par like how was portrayed in the anime after all.

- Toppo says that based on combat skill alone he is stronger than Belmod.

Haden't countered? Don't u mean if he had countered? It is a bit confusing.

And Toppo is above a GoD?

Also, from the ep summaries i read, it mentioned Berserk kale is a match for ssj blue Goku.

[Marlowe89]

I'm not sure what to make of the whole scene with Shin getting knocked unconscious by Rumsshi's roar. On the one hand, I'm certainly willing to admit that we now have something within the arc that could legitimately place base Goku substantially higher than his Buu Saga self, but on the other hand, I still recall a ton of debating regarding exactly how strong Shin was supposed to be in the first place -- for example, you have the implication that he was stronger than Piccolo, but then you have him feeling intimidated from Goku threatening him with a ki blast even though Goku was only in Super Saiyan form during that particular scene.

Personally, I'm going to wait and see what else the manga has in store before I consider reformulating my tier list. It's absolutely a possibility at this point though.

Its also good to see that SSG is still relevant

I concur. Goku did mention that it was on an entirely different level compared to Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3, which is further mirrored in the anime where Jiren could no-sell everything from Super Saiyan 1 and 2 Goku but had to start guarding against his attacks in Super Saiyan God. I think it just goes to show that both mediums are far less different than people believed.

[ZombieVito]

I'm not sure what to make of the whole scene with Shin getting knocked unconscious by Rumsshi's roar. On the one hand, I'm certainly willing to admit that we now have something within the arc that could legitimately place base Goku substantially higher than his Buu Saga self, but on the other hand, I still recall a ton of debating regarding exactly how strong Shin was supposed to be in the first place -- for example, you have an implication that he was stronger than Piccolo, but then you have him feeling intimidated from Goku threatening him with a ki blast even though Goku was only in Super Saiyan form during that particular scene.

Personally, I'm going to wait and see what else the manga has in store before I consider reformulating my tier list. It's absolutely a possibility at this point though.

But Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Piccolo.

[HeroR]

So all of the Gods of Destruction are all stronger than Goku.He even says their strength is "mind blowing".

People making U9 God of Destruction so weak that Goku could take him was all headcanon based on nothing other than Goku taking in just a small sample of Sibra's power.

[Marlowe89]

But Super Saiyan Goku is stronger than Piccolo.

True. My point was that Goku being stronger than Shin doesn't necessarily mean anything if Shin was no stronger than any of Goku's Super Saiyan forms during the Buu Saga, but it might suggest that Goku in general (including his base) became somewhat stronger -- especially if base Goku was supposedly weaker than Namek Frieza at the start of BoG.

[ekrolo2]

The problem with Goku being above Shin comes back around to Trunks. I know this is sounding the Beacons of Gondor for the "ZENKAI MOFO!" crowd to come charging at me on horseback but how did Trunks get anywhere close to Goku & Vegeta's levels of strength after BoG in the manga?

[Green]

I'd just wait for the Recruitment fights with Gohan and Freezer in order to gauge how strong the Base Saiyans are supposed to be. For all we know Toyotaro is a "Buu Saga Base Saiyans > Piccolo" and "BOG Goku wasn't at full power" type of guy, I also have my sincere doubts since the Black arc he follows any kind of arbitrary multiplier for transformations.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The problem with Goku being above Shin comes back around to Trunks. I know this is sounding the Beacons of Gondor for the "ZENKAI MOFO!" crowd to come charging at me on horseback but how did Trunks get anywhere close to Goku & Vegeta's levels of strength after BoG in the manga?

It could be that after fighting with Dabura in BOTH mediums, Future Trunks decides to train his ass off more than ever before, constantly pushing himself so that he'll be ready for any threat that may come. So, he's gotten even stronger but this still isn't enough to do anything against Goku Black.

Cue fighting against Goku Black for a year, and Future Trunks slowly gets stronger and stronger, still not as strong as base Goku Black but at least managing to lessen the gap between his SS2 form and Goku Black. We see in the anime that SS Future Trunks is at least able to land solid blows on Goku Black before he leaves for the main timeline, even though he was completely helpless when Goku Black first showed up as seen in a flashback.

Yeah, there's no explicit evidence of this happening, but it's not unbelievable to think that Future Trunks has been getting stronger during his year of tussling with and losing against Goku Black.

[TAF108]

Keep in mind, Shin was stated to be the weakest Supreme Kai in U7 in both the manga and anime. In the anime, South Supreme Kai could trade blows with Kid Buu.

Oh yeah, some Kai's could be much stronger than Shin. We do know that Zamasu was stronger than any of the other Kai's so that's a bit of reference there.

Zamasu was how strong in the manga? Weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was said so weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. He might even be weaker than Super Saiyan Goku seeing as he powered down to that form.

Super Saiyan Goku > Zamasu > Goku > All other Supreme Kai's.

Maybe.

Zamasu was beating SSJ Goku.

Edit: But that was via telekinesis. Not sure how much more powerful than is when compared to Zamasu himself. But Shin could hold back SSJ2 Gohan and Dabura despite those two being able to murk him, so I can see SSJ Goku still be stronger, just unable to win in a fight.

[buutenks]

IDk why, but when Goku transformed into ssj blue vs Jiren, it felt like for the first time in the show, he used blue's full power. I know it isnt true, since he used it vs Freeza, Black etc. But, that long powerup to ssj blue, just made it feel powerful to me.

Also, how strong is anime base Goku atm? Still all over the place?

As for Shin and base Goku, could be Kaioshin is just weaksauce.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

IDk why, but when Goku transformed into ssj blue vs Jiren, it felt like for the first time in the show, he used blue's full power. I know it isnt true, since he used it vs Freeza, Black etc. But, that long powerup to ssj blue, just made it feel powerful to me.

Also, how strong is anime base Goku atm? Still all over the place?

As for Shin and base Goku, could be Kaioshin is just weaksauce.

Perhaps, but didn't the recent chapter have ALL of the Kaioshin get knocked over where Goku didn't? Most of them are probably at least closing in on Cell, maybe even Majin Buu for the exceptional ones.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

This should have already been obvious, but it was stated by a god of destruction that the fight between Toppo and ssjg Goku was one that was at their level.
So Goku and Toppo are on the same tier of power as the hakaishin, but obviously farther down that tier, not multifold weaker. Another confirmation of 6-10-15.

[Lord Beerus]

- The Universe 3 robots gangs up on Base Goku and have him on the the ropes.
- The Universe 6 Namekians fight Gohan and Piccolo and take the intial the advantage
- Monna (Universe 4) battles Base Cabba and Cabba struggles.
- Cabba turns SSJ and the tide of the battle turns instantly in his favour as he batters Monna
- Monna then turns into a giant ball and batters around Cabba like he's nothing.
- (Giant ball) Monna knocks around Cabba so badly that, Cabba not only goes out of SSJ, but he's practically ringed out... until VEGETA MAKES THE SAVE!!
- Vegeta saves Cabba from being ringed out and blasts away Monna
- (Giant Ball) Monna continues to smack around Cabba but then... CABBA GOES SUPER SAIYAN 2!!
- SSJ2 Cabba eliminates Monna after thrashing her around and winning a beam clash
- SSJB Vegeta and Toppo clash
- Base Cabba attacks Freeza... and it goes as well as you would expect.
- Freeza goes Golden and blasts the crap out of Cabba and eliminates him (So much for that guy)
- Vegeta notes that Goku must be really low on power if those weakling robots from Universe 3 are giving him a hard time.
- Goku states though that he is regaining his stamina and but is still having some trouble, so Caulifla comes in to lend a hand... and challenges Goku to a fight.

EDIT: Caught the NEP, and Base Goku appears to initially have trouble against SSJ2 Caulifla. But then we later see him fight equally with her to some degree. So I suppose Goku has manged regain his power and stamina to reach to the more usual standard. Which would imply his base form is at the very least SSJ2 tier.
EDIT 2: It seem as though Caulifla was a Super Saiyan when fighting Goku in the NEP, but upon closer inspection, she was indeed a Super Saiyan 2 in he NEP as I first suspected. Just to clarify.

[Lord Beerus]

Apologies for the double post, but I once again missed the NEP. I'll update the above post once I catch a later glimpse of it.

[ZombieVito]

OK. Freeza needs his Golden form to beat SS2 Cabba.

Could it be that Frost is actually stronger than Freeza and the latter had to get him off guard to knock him out? Champa does say that Frost doesn't stand a chance but could that mean that he knows Freeza has a lot more power left hidden.

[Doctor.]

This episode was a nightmare and the next one looks even worse

[BlueBasilisk]

Apologies for the double post, but I once again missed the NEP. I'll update the above post once I catch a later glimpse of it.

Goku is shown fighting Caulifla in base and as Super Saiyan or SS2, I couldn't tell which it was.

OK. Freeza needs his Golden form to beat SS2 Cabba.

Could it be that Frost is actually stronger than Freeza and the latter had to get him off guard to knock him out? Champa does say that Frost doesn't stand a chance but could that mean that he knows Freeza has a lot more power left hidden.

No, that's about right based on what we've seen from Frieza before. His final form seems comparable to a Super Saiyan but his Golden form is way beyond that.

[ekrolo2]

So I guess retconned Freezas power in true form puts him at SS1 tier?

[Doctor.]

So I guess retconned Freezas power in true form puts him at SS1 tier?

Didn't he tank some of Ultimate Gohan's hits a few episodes ago?

[ekrolo2]

So I guess retconned Freezas power in true form puts him at SS1 tier?

Didn't he tank some of Ultimate Gohan's hits a few episodes ago?

Gohan knew from the start it was all fake so I don't take this seriously into consideration.

What I want to know is how does stamina recover while you fight when the stamina got lost due to intense fighting.