Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

Look at the anime and manga, i would go with the following:

ssj1-3 and opponents of this tier r slightly higher than they were in the buu saga.

Ssg and Ssgss are another realm of power(as shown in the manga and vs Jiren)

[HeroR]

Look at the anime and manga, i would go with the following:

ssj1-3 and opponents of this tier r slightly higher than they were in the buu saga.

Ssg and Ssgss are another realm of power(as shown in the manga and vs Jiren)

Again, why would Goku and Vegeta after training with Whis all this time only be slightly higher compared to the Buu Saga and all their gains come from transformations? Not even the manga supports this since Beerus told Goku back in Battle of Gods that he was weaker than true form Freeza and Goku in the later manga chapter didn't faint when Shin and the other Supreme Kais did, who far surpasses true form Freeza from Namek.

The anime definition don't support this since base form Copy-Vegeta no sold Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and before than base form Goku fought Monaka-Beerus when Beerus in Battle of Gods two-shotted Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Using just Resurrection 'F', the movie, Piccolo said that all of them together stood no chance against first form Freeze, yet Piccolo by himself should be strong or stronger than Perfect Cell, yet Goku in his base was superior to true from Freeze. So how can Goku's base form based on that be exactly the same as it was in the Buu Saga?

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Look at the anime and manga, i would go with the following:

ssj1-3 and opponents of this tier r slightly higher than they were in the buu saga.

Ssg and Ssgss are another realm of power(as shown in the manga and vs Jiren)

Again, why would Goku and Vegeta after training with Whis all this time only be slightly higher compared to the Buu Saga and all their gains come from transformations? Not even the manga supports this since Beerus told Goku back in Battle of Gods that he was weaker than true form Freeza and Goku in the later manga chapter didn't faint when Shin and the other Supreme Kais did, who far surpasses true form Freeza from Namek.

The anime definition don't support this since base form Copy-Vegeta no sold Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and before than base form Goku fought Monaka-Beerus when Beerus in Battle of Gods two-shotted Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Using just Resurrection 'F', the movie, Piccolo said that all of them together stood no chance against first form Freeze, yet Piccolo by himself should be strong or stronger than Perfect Cell, yet Goku in his base was superior to true from Freeze. So how can Goku's base form based on that be exactly the same as it was in the Buu Saga?

The magic of Saiyan Beyond God.

[ekrolo2]

Look at the anime and manga, i would go with the following:

ssj1-3 and opponents of this tier r slightly higher than they were in the buu saga.

Ssg and Ssgss are another realm of power(as shown in the manga and vs Jiren)

Again, why would Goku and Vegeta after training with Whis all this time only be slightly higher compared to the Buu Saga and all their gains come from transformations? Not even the manga supports this since Beerus told Goku back in Battle of Gods that he was weaker than true form Freeza and Goku in the later manga chapter didn't faint when Shin and the other Supreme Kais did, who far surpasses true form Freeza from Namek.

The anime definition don't support this since base form Copy-Vegeta no sold Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and before than base form Goku fought Monaka-Beerus when Beerus in Battle of Gods two-shotted Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Using just Resurrection 'F', the movie, Piccolo said that all of them together stood no chance against first form Freeze, yet Piccolo by himself should be strong or stronger than Perfect Cell, yet Goku in his base was superior to true from Freeze. So how can Goku's base form based on that be exactly the same as it was in the Buu Saga?

The magic of Saiyan Beyond God.

Yeah that video game mechanic that doesn't exist anymore even in the video game that introduced it.

[apex_pretador]

[]Nope, in the Champa Saga, they were even match in base. This is the exact quote:

"He's good! Looks like we're evenly match in normal form. At this rate, this match is going nowhere."

So unless you think Vegeta was lying to himself, he had no reason to say Cabba was an even match when he wasn't, especially since he didn't know he didn't have Super Saiyan. So either Vegeta got stronger so his base form is now stronger than Cabba, or take Monna at her word.

Except even in base form, he wasn't equal to vegeta. Vegeta's casual kick and cabba was breathing heavily. In SS, Vegeta tanks cabba's full power punch and smiles.
Since feats > Statements, Vegeta is superior to Cabba.

And for the record, Vegeta's attack didn't even do any damaged to her.

I already stated that. It puts SS2 Cabba's powered up beam above base vegeta's casual blast
But Monna completely manhandled SS Cabba after transforming.

SS2 Cabba > Base Vegeta > SS1 Cabba

Nope, even in the retelling Goku was superior. Freeze didn't even hit Goku in the retelling until he kept attacking his friends and he did no damaged to Goku. And why wouldn't Freeze be serious when he's trying to kill Goku's friends and even trying to poke Goku's eyes out?

Freeza doesn't care about fighting fair, plus it is freeza just having fun with old friends.

Gohan got stomped by Jimiz because Gohan couldn't counter his IT, while Freeza could. This isn't a matter of power.

It is a matter of power, as Freeza noted that if gohan had "transformed", he could have stomped Jimiz. Freeza was moving faster than Jimiz could even teleport.

The Namekians so far have shown to be above Piccolo since one of them by themselves temporarily disabled Piccolo.

Barely, as it was after a decent exchange. Plus piccolo instantly countered as soon as he saw Gohan struggle.

Gohan on the other hand has taken no real damaged and even intercepted one of the Nameks.

That's why I said barely above Piccolo. If Piccolo is 10, Gohan is 10.5

But Gohan was also breathing heavily. I think that all 4 of them are close to each other, further episodes will elaborate more.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

It's less that Vegeta tanked Cabba's punch back in the U6 tournament arc and more that he headbutted Cabba's fist. Notice that he completely changes stance from before to after Cabba's punch connects. Both Vegeta's thoughts and the fight itself support the idea of Cabba either being Vegeta's equal in the same forms, or slightly weaker.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'll try and set things straight as much as I can based on how I've interpreted things.

Those three Universe 3 Cyborgs (not robots, they're supposed to be Cyborgs, dammit!) go after Goku whilst he's still recovering, but Gohan thinks he'll be fine even though Piccolo thought he should go help his dad. Those two then get into a scrap with Saonel and Pirina, and they all seem to be fighting pretty evenly. Piccolo even says that he didn't think he'd meet Namekians this strong, potentially meaning as strong as him.

We also have Monna in her regular form handily stalemating Cabba, then getting dumped by his SS form, and then she goes Big Bertha and dumps on him. Vegeta keeps him from falling and also knees him hard for being weak, and tough love is how you toughen up a Saiyan! He also cheap-shots Monna because she was mouthing off and not paying attention to him enough to defend against such an attack.

Then Cabba goes SS2 and easily dumps on Monna, but then Freeza decides to crash the party and dump on base Cabba. He then goes SS2, forces Freeza back, and then gets his Galick Gun no-sold by Golden Freeza who dumps on him.

A bit too much dumping to be healthy, I'm sure

Personally, I just go with the assumption that the base Saiyans, Namekians, Majin Buu, and Final Form Freeza are all within the same general range of "pure" power.

[Marlowe89]

Final From Frieza was never implied to be as strong as Super Saiyan God in the Resurrection F saga.

Unless you were referring to the movie which has its own thing going on. The Base Goku that he fought was nowhere near that strong either going by what we know now.

He was never directly implied to be as strong as Super Saiyan God in the movie either -- we just knew he was that strong based on supplementary material that stated as much for base Goku. There's nothing in either the movie or the anime that obviously separates the two in power-scaling, you'd have to infer they were their "own thing" based on materials and events completely outside of the arc/movie. You could use the Whis tree/tower comparison scene as evidence, but that was before their advanced training was complete.

In the anime, the Earthlings couldn't see base Goku's movements against Frieza even though they could observe said movements just fine as a Super Saiyan God against Beerus. I don't think it's true at all that the anime never attempted to have viewers believe that Goku did in fact become that powerful initially.

[HeroR]

[]Nope, in the Champa Saga, they were even match in base. This is the exact quote:

"He's good! Looks like we're evenly match in normal form. At this rate, this match is going nowhere."

So unless you think Vegeta was lying to himself, he had no reason to say Cabba was an even match when he wasn't, especially since he didn't know he didn't have Super Saiyan. So either Vegeta got stronger so his base form is now stronger than Cabba, or take Monna at her word.

Except even in base form, he wasn't equal to vegeta. Vegeta's casual kick and cabba was breathing heavily. In SS, Vegeta tanks cabba's full power punch and smiles.
Since feats > Statements, Vegeta is superior to Cabba.

And for the record, Vegeta's attack didn't even do any damaged to her.

I already stated that. It puts SS2 Cabba's powered up beam above base vegeta's casual blast
But Monna completely manhandled SS Cabba after transforming.

SS2 Cabba > Base Vegeta > SS1 Cabba

Nope, even in the retelling Goku was superior. Freeze didn't even hit Goku in the retelling until he kept attacking his friends and he did no damaged to Goku. And why wouldn't Freeze be serious when he's trying to kill Goku's friends and even trying to poke Goku's eyes out?

Freeza doesn't care about fighting fair, plus it is freeza just having fun with old friends.

Gohan got stomped by Jimiz because Gohan couldn't counter his IT, while Freeza could. This isn't a matter of power.

It is a matter of power, as Freeza noted that if gohan had "transformed", he could have stomped Jimiz. Freeza was moving faster than Jimiz could even teleport.

The Namekians so far have shown to be above Piccolo since one of them by themselves temporarily disabled Piccolo.

Barely, as it was after a decent exchange. Plus piccolo instantly countered as soon as he saw Gohan struggle.

Gohan on the other hand has taken no real damaged and even intercepted one of the Nameks.

That's why I said barely above Piccolo. If Piccolo is 10, Gohan is 10.5

But Gohan was also breathing heavily. I think that all 4 of them are close to each other, further episodes will elaborate more.

Except you're forgetting that Vegeta beat the shit out of Cabba before he went Super Saiyan. And you're not answering the question, why would Vegeta lie to himself about Cabba being his equal when he wasn't?

I doubt base form Vegeta was superior to Super Saiyan Cabba.

Freeze wasn't 'having fun' since his idea of fun is torturing people, yet none of his attacks did anything to Goku. This isn't about 'fighting fair' but Freeze's willingness to fight dirty shows that he wasn't 'playing' or 'holding back'.

Freeze knew how to counter IT and it wasn't just speed. Beerus in Battle of Gods was much faster than Goku, but never countered IT despite Goku using it twice on him. The same with Copy-Vegeta who is equal to Goku in speed, yet Copy-Vegeta still got IT spammed.

It's more than just barely and putting Gohan as a 10.5 is a low ball.

The magic of Saiyan Beyond God.

The was never a 'Saiyan Beyond God'. It was a term used once in Heroes to highlight Goku's powerful base form, but that's it. Goku and Vegeta just have a powerful base form thanks to Goku absorbing Super Saiyan God and later Goku and Vegeta training with Whis.

[apex_pretador]

Except you're forgetting that Vegeta beat the shit out of Cabba before he went Super Saiyan. And you're not answering the question, why would Vegeta lie to himself about Cabba being his equal when he wasn't?

What about a casual kick being too hard on cabba?

Did vegeta really talk to himself, or just told Cabba that he's equal to him?
And it happens all the time in super. It happened in Beerus's case against Rageta.

I doubt base form Vegeta was superior to Super Saiyan Cabba.

Was he? No, I don't think he was either, but he seems to be SS Cabba's superior now.
Base vegeta (current) > SS Cabba > Base vegeta (U6 arc)

Freeze wasn't 'having fun' since his idea of fun is torturing people,

He was torturing Goku's friends. Isn't it having fun?

yet none of his attacks did anything to Goku. This isn't about 'fighting fair' but Freeze's willingness to fight dirty shows that he wasn't 'playing' or 'holding back'.

Freeza still implied that he could've handled SS Goku without going golden.

Freeze knew how to counter IT and it wasn't just speed. Beerus in Battle of Gods was much faster than Goku, but never countered IT despite Goku using it twice on him. The same with Copy-Vegeta who is equal to Goku in speed, yet Copy-Vegeta still got IT spammed.

Why did Freeza say that Gohan could've wrecked Jimiz if he transformed?

It's more than just barely and putting Gohan as a 10.5 is a low ball.

[/quote]
Later episodes will further elaborate on it.

[HeroR]

Except you're forgetting that Vegeta beat the shit out of Cabba before he went Super Saiyan. And you're not answering the question, why would Vegeta lie to himself about Cabba being his equal when he wasn't?

What about a casual kick being too hard on cabba?

Did vegeta really talk to himself, or just told Cabba that he's equal to him?
And it happens all the time in super. It happened in Beerus's case against Rageta.

I doubt base form Vegeta was superior to Super Saiyan Cabba.

Was he? No, I don't think he was either, but he seems to be SS Cabba's superior now.
Base vegeta (current) > SS Cabba > Base vegeta (U6 arc)

Freeze wasn't 'having fun' since his idea of fun is torturing people,

He was torturing Goku's friends. Isn't it having fun?

yet none of his attacks did anything to Goku. This isn't about 'fighting fair' but Freeze's willingness to fight dirty shows that he wasn't 'playing' or 'holding back'.

Freeza still implied that he could've handled SS Goku without going golden.

Freeze knew how to counter IT and it wasn't just speed. Beerus in Battle of Gods was much faster than Goku, but never countered IT despite Goku using it twice on him. The same with Copy-Vegeta who is equal to Goku in speed, yet Copy-Vegeta still got IT spammed.

Why did Freeza say that Gohan could've wrecked Jimiz if he transformed?

It's more than just barely and putting Gohan as a 10.5 is a low ball.

Later episodes will further elaborate on it.[/quote]

He was talking to himself. Here is the exact quote from CR:

"He's good! Looks like we're evenly match in normal form. At this rate, this match is going nowhere."

He wasn't talking to Cabba and even assumed he had Super Saiyan.

Vegeta's base form maybe superior to Cabba now, but I doubt the different is so big that Vegeta is equal or superior to Super Saiyan Cabba. Especially when Vegeta did no damaged to Monna, he just pushed her.

He wanted to torture Goku more than Goku's friends, especially since seeing Goku tortured and defeated would do more harm then him just shooting them. Nothing about that fight in Resurrection 'F' Saga shows Freeze as 'holding back for play', he was trying to harm Goku and was going crazy talking about his time in Hell. Goku was the one driving him crazy since he wasn't taking things seriously and putting down Freeze. And the dialog Freeze gave seems more like he was insulted that Goku was just using base and if Freeze could have handled Super Saiyan Goku, he would have beating the shit of base form Goku and know it since he can sense ki in the retelling.

Because Gohan can't seem to think and fight and wins by overpowering his opponent. Freeze certainly didn't need to used his 'full power' to counter IT. Overall, we have seen IT work on faster opponents and not be counter, so saying that Freeze won because of speed ignores how IT spammed worked on Beerus in Battle of Gods movie twice, while Beerus was far faster and more experience than Goku.

Probably.

[apex_pretador]

--

Well, most of the stuff is self-contradictory, so let's look at other things

1. Basil and Napapa

Basil and his brothers were able to overwhelm Goku (BASE) but not able to damage him.
On the other hand, Basil's blasts were blocked and redirected by Napapa, but with difficulty. This puts Napapa a bit below base Goku.

Yet, Napapa's charge was barely stopped after great difficulty by caulifla as a SS after crossing halfway through the ring. Therefore, SS Caulifla should be close to base Goku.


The same Napapa got squashed by base Freeza


2. Frost

Frost was stated as the best hand to hand combatant of universe 6, and he hadn't even shown his true form in his universe. This means 2nd form frost (or 3rd form?) was above base cabba. Final Form Frost was comparable or even above base Goku/vegeta. Yet, Final form Frost was no match for Freeza as stated by Champa who did not know anything about golden form.

Yeah, Freeza is a good deal above base and potentially SS Cabba.

[HeroR]

--

Well, most of the stuff is self-contradictory, so let's look at other things

1. Basil and Napapa

Basil and his brothers were able to overwhelm Goku (BASE) but not able to damage him.
On the other hand, Basil's blasts were blocked and redirected by Napapa, but with difficulty. This puts Napapa a bit below base Goku.

Yet, Napapa's charge was barely stopped after great difficulty by caulifla as a SS after crossing halfway through the ring. Therefore, SS Caulifla should be close to base Goku.


The same Napapa got squashed by base Freeza


2. Frost

Frost was stated as the best hand to hand combatant of universe 6, and he hadn't even shown his true form in his universe. This means 2nd form frost (or 3rd form?) was above base cabba. Final Form Frost was comparable or even above base Goku/vegeta. Yet, Final form Frost was no match for Freeza as stated by Champa who did not know anything about golden form.

Yeah, Freeza is a good deal above base and potentially SS Cabba.

We never saw how Freeza took out Napapa, just the end result, and Cali could have allowed herself to be pushed on purpose so she could ring the dude out. And remember, Goku decided to used Super Saiyan to wipe Basil and the other wolves in the end. Not saying they are Super Saiyan level or base form Goku couldn't handle them, but saying Cali going Super Saiyan proves that she couldn't handle Napapa in her base form is flawed when you considered Goku didn't beat Basil in base form either.

Frost being the "best hand to hand combatant of Universe 6" was only said in the manga, not the anime. Assault Form Frost was able to hit and push Goku far better than true from Freeza even in the retelling. He even flew through the Kamehameha like Cooler. And keep in mind that Freeza himself got much stronger since Resurrection 'F', which is what Assault Frost would be based on, Resurrection 'F' Freeza. We don't know where Frost compares to any of the Saiyan in the Tournament of Power since everyone got stronger, only that he was above Cabba before going Super Saiyan in the Champa Saga.

Freeze and Cabba got stronger, so you can't just take the scale from the Champa Saga and import it into this arc, especially when we don't actually know where current Cabba stands next to Frost.

[Shlugo]

So Caulifa eaisly took care of the three robots in base, one of which was enough to push back base Gohan, and force him to hide. Pretty good showing.

[ekrolo2]

So, with the recent anime & manga stuff, I've noticed a bit of a difference between how each views Blue. In the manga, Beerus seems to refer to it as a mere powered up SSGod rather than a significant improvement over it. Meaning it's probably not much stronger than God, potentially as low as twice as strong in its unmastered state. The anime, however, seems to keep the whole "It's a SSGods SS form" trait by having Blue act as substantially stronger then SSGod. God warranted only a finger from Jiren whereas Blue necessitated an actual fight.

[JazzMazz]

So, with the recent anime & manga stuff, I've noticed a bit of a difference between how each views Blue. In the manga, Beerus seems to refer to it as a mere powered up SSGod rather than a significant improvement over it. Meaning it's probably not much stronger than God, potentially as low as twice as strong in its unmastered state. The anime, however, seems to keep the whole "It's a SSGods SS form" trait by having Blue act as substantially stronger then SSGod. God warranted only a finger from Jiren whereas Blue necessitated an actual fight.

A very one-sided fight, but a fight nonetheless.

Also, I think them having the scaling closer together in the manga is how they're going to keep previously established characters with a weak showing in the manga like Hit relevant(since his only SSG level and his time-skip is super-nerved from the anime).

[supercat]

HeroR, I made some adjustments to my tier list. Now I'm wondering if Android 17 should be above Dyspo. Hard to tell honestly.

Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Dyspo
Android 17 > / = Kale
Ultimate Gohan
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
Super Buu
Mr. Buu

I didn't bother listing a lot of characters / transformations between Piccolo and SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga), but there's a handful of them from the tournament. Piccolo > various fighters > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga).

Honestly, I think you people either hold a blatant disrespect for Piccolo, causing you to overlook recent events, or you're pathological in your ability to underestimate him.


Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Hit
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Ultimate Gohan
Dyspo
Android 17 > / = Kale
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
Piccolo
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost

I underlined the two movements I made, the first to Ultimate Gohan and the second to Piccolo. From what we've seen in 88, Piccolo is at least SSJ2 level. There's on way with the significant boosts he's made, which is explicitly stated in 88, he's still on par with Final Form Frost. A character that admitedly lost power since the U6 tournament. Not to mention, Gohan is shown to be close to, if not equal to, Goku in base form. If that's true, Piccolo was able to soundly beat Gohan at 100x the strength in ep. 88. He's clearly above the Sayians at base and Final Form Frieza. At the very least, he's current SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta/Gohan level, and most likely much stronger. We've yet to see an example of his true power. In regards to Gohan, we saw a much clearer example of him competeing with a full powered SSJB Goku for at least a few blows prior to Goku using KK. In the spar between 17 and Goku, 17 proved he's strong enough to at least force Goku to have to transform into SSJB. How little power Goku needed in the form, and how much 17 kept hidden is a complete mystery. He's definitely behind Ultimate Gohan in terms of power.

How is putting Piccolo over SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) along with all the Buus a downplay? And SSJ2 isn't a set level as far as I understand. SSJ2 is a multiplier that gives the Base Saiyan a boost. SSJ2-tier can mean so many different things. Cell saga SSJ2, Buu saga SSJ2, Future Trunks saga SSJ2, current SSJ2, SSJ2 Goku (against Ultimate Gohan), etc.

A suppressed Android 17 gave a suppressed SSB Goku a really good fight. If anything, it looked like Goku was putting in a bit more effort than Android 17 was. Had these two been going all out, it's very possible that Android 17 would have done a lot better. Then there's SSJ2 Goku also doing rather well against Ultimate Gohan, while Android 17 completely outclassed SSJ1 Goku, who probably isn't much weaker than SSJ2 Goku. So if Android 17 could destroy SSJ Goku with such ease, there's a good chance SSJ2 would suffer the same. I still have Android 17 > Ultimate Gohan and there's nothing going against that. Android 17 barely even looked like he was trying against SSB Goku, so who knows how powerful he would have been at full. Gohan on the other hand, we probably saw his best during his sparring match.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, with the recent anime & manga stuff, I've noticed a bit of a difference between how each views Blue. In the manga, Beerus seems to refer to it as a mere powered up SSGod rather than a significant improvement over it. Meaning it's probably not much stronger than God, potentially as low as twice as strong in its unmastered state. The anime, however, seems to keep the whole "It's a SSGods SS form" trait by having Blue act as substantially stronger then SSGod. God warranted only a finger from Jiren whereas Blue necessitated an actual fight.

A very one-sided fight, but a fight nonetheless.

Also, I think them having the scaling closer together in the manga is how they're going to keep previously established characters with a weak showing in the manga like Hit relevant(since his only SSG level and his time-skip is super-nerved from the anime).

Whilst folks around her in particular hate this part, I honestly prefer it when strictly linear power-scaling/levels aren't factored into a fight in every single facet.

I like it when opponents can give even god-level opponents trouble beyond how strong they are. I know others don't, but I honestly just like this approach better.

[JazzMazz]

So, with the recent anime & manga stuff, I've noticed a bit of a difference between how each views Blue. In the manga, Beerus seems to refer to it as a mere powered up SSGod rather than a significant improvement over it. Meaning it's probably not much stronger than God, potentially as low as twice as strong in its unmastered state. The anime, however, seems to keep the whole "It's a SSGods SS form" trait by having Blue act as substantially stronger then SSGod. God warranted only a finger from Jiren whereas Blue necessitated an actual fight.

A very one-sided fight, but a fight nonetheless.

Also, I think them having the scaling closer together in the manga is how they're going to keep previously established characters with a weak showing in the manga like Hit relevant(since his only SSG level and his time-skip is super-nerved from the anime).

Whilst folks around her in particular hate this part, I honestly prefer it when strictly linear power-scaling/levels aren't factored into a fight in every single facet.

I like it when opponents can give even god-level opponents trouble beyond how strong they are. I know others don't, but I honestly just like this approach better.

I definitely agree with this.

Though strength should be a factor, character special abilities and own intelligence should be what inevitably determines the outcome of a battle, espicially if the focus is around strategy(you can be a little looser when demonstrating character motivation, but it should still follow relatively the same rules).

[ekrolo2]

A very one-sided fight, but a fight nonetheless.

Also, I think them having the scaling closer together in the manga is how they're going to keep previously established characters with a weak showing in the manga like Hit relevant(since his only SSG level and his time-skip is super-nerved from the anime).

Whilst folks around her in particular hate this part, I honestly prefer it when strictly linear power-scaling/levels aren't factored into a fight in every single facet.

I like it when opponents can give even god-level opponents trouble beyond how strong they are. I know others don't, but I honestly just like this approach better.

I definitely agree with this.

Though strength should be a factor, character special abilities and own intelligence should be what inevitably determines the outcome of a battle, espicially if the focus is around strategy(you can be a little looser when demonstrating character motivation, but it should still follow relatively the same rules).

It only works if a technique to facilitate it exists like Roshi using hypnosis. A big power disparity can't be fixed though, Krillin can have all the experience he wants on someone, but if that someone is so much faster then him, no amount of tactical ingenuity can or should save him.

Then again, Super's logic operates on "The more of a scrub you are, the less the power disparity matters" so Roshi can probably kick Jiren's ass sooner than anyone who should by any logical estimate actually pull it off.