Jiren is not simple brute.

[Hawk9211]

Such as...?

Mastery of Self Movement is probably the biggest one and a big plot point of the series. We've seen characters reach higher levels of strength & control through different forms of meditation, image training, and high levels of concentration like Gohan, Freeza, & Jiren (to some extent and also being open minded to what the OP describes) instead of simple physical training. It's even had an effect on their development as a person i.e Freeza. The only times they were shown before was either through filler or a single shot in the manga possibly and nothing ever came of it or it was used to make it look cool. We've seen the point Whis has brought up to Goku & Vegeta on how letting down your guard has an effect on even the strongest of fighters (even if people don't like Goku getting blasted by a laser) and that they need to work on a balance between being too tense and too relaxed so they can maximize results. This also connects with the self movement technique. You also have to take into account DB's own added things like having mastered ki so well you can attain God Ki which is on a whole different plane above mortal means. It shows Goku and Vegeta being martial artists at leagues of their own while still needing to learn. DB has always been about there always being another level of strength and that there are many strong people out there besides you, but it's never really leaned towards some people just being that much better than you and possibly someone you could never reach the way Battle of Gods and everything that follows except instances like Vegeta accepting Goku is better in the last DB arc or just cause a villain that was gonna destroy a planet was too strong or cause AT just stopped writing most of the original cast in a way to keep up with the Saiyans. It was never really more so from a martial arts perspective. This is me though.

Okay but how does this differ from Z? It's the same "Person X is powerful because they say they are" trope that Z falls into. It doesn't have anything to do with martial arts or concepts or skills. The idea of self movement and the body being able to react on its own is finalized in the form of Ultra Instinct. But it's a form, it's a transformation. Goku didn't actually learn this technique by practicing it or getting good at it, he got it because his transformation made him more powerful and able to do it. This goes back to the same thing in Z where people transform and become more powerful, there's not any kind of martial arts skill or practice like we saw in the original Dragon Ball. And the concept of not letting your guard down isn't exactly some kind of interesting martial arts concept that we've never seen in the series before. Not to mention meditation or image training is nowhere near anything new for this series, we've seen it back in the original Dragon Ball.

Nothing has changed from Z to Super in terms of the series becoming more inclined with martial arts or its concepts. It's still using the exact same formula as Z. Person shows up, they're more powerful because they say they are/they transform, and then Goku defeats them (or tries to defeat them) using the same techniques he's always used, or he transforms himself. Ultra Instinct is the closest it comes, and even then it just follows the same formula as Z where it's "Person transforms, now they're more powerful and can't be hit because of how powerful they are."

If beerus and whis are anything to go buy,then ultra instinct is a technique.Also,it is not clear whether the new form is required for UI.

[DragonBallFoodie]

I don't think he ever was a simple brute. I think most of the TOP warriors are seasoned fighters with enough discipline and skill to make it as far as they can.

Jiren just hasn't shown enough of his full power yet.

[gohan_black]

Before i started taking psychitric medications my mind was so focused that i could litterly create in my imagination a dream while I'm still awake. A fully controllable dream that i can do whatever i want to do in my mind. When on focus i could picture diffrent outcomes and results. Analyze every little bit. It wasent trough meditating stance like you mentioned but when i was laying down. After being forced into psychatry my mind is no longer what it used to be. It compleatly shatterd. My potential was gone and i cant focus my mind anymore.

[Miracles]

lol

Majority of Dragonball are nothing but brutes with some simple tactics.

[Cabba]

That's what I'm saying, its all about power. If you are powerful, he will face you, if you are not he will ignore you.
But I like both of them, I find them interesting.

I think the point is that Jiren while ubber powerful he is also a master level fighter while Broly is only good for his power and he also loses all composure while he transforms into LSS, its called berserk for a reason.
Jiren seems much more skilled while Broly looks like brute force galore

[Cabba]

If beerus and whis are anything to go buy,then ultra instinct is a technique.Also,it is not clear whether the new form is required for UI.

Perhaps Gokus new appearance is how the the Saiyans biology reacts to the this new tier of power, so while technically not a new transformation Saiyans change appearance when they reach this new tier of power
Kinda like SSG, in FnF Goku and Vegeta base had SSG without transforming into it, but now it seems they got to change appearance to show SSG powers

[lancerman]

Mastery of Self Movement is probably the biggest one and a big plot point of the series. We've seen characters reach higher levels of strength & control through different forms of meditation, image training, and high levels of concentration like Gohan, Freeza, & Jiren (to some extent and also being open minded to what the OP describes) instead of simple physical training. It's even had an effect on their development as a person i.e Freeza. The only times they were shown before was either through filler or a single shot in the manga possibly and nothing ever came of it or it was used to make it look cool. We've seen the point Whis has brought up to Goku & Vegeta on how letting down your guard has an effect on even the strongest of fighters (even if people don't like Goku getting blasted by a laser) and that they need to work on a balance between being too tense and too relaxed so they can maximize results. This also connects with the self movement technique. You also have to take into account DB's own added things like having mastered ki so well you can attain God Ki which is on a whole different plane above mortal means. It shows Goku and Vegeta being martial artists at leagues of their own while still needing to learn. DB has always been about there always being another level of strength and that there are many strong people out there besides you, but it's never really leaned towards some people just being that much better than you and possibly someone you could never reach the way Battle of Gods and everything that follows except instances like Vegeta accepting Goku is better in the last DB arc or just cause a villain that was gonna destroy a planet was too strong or cause AT just stopped writing most of the original cast in a way to keep up with the Saiyans. It was never really more so from a martial arts perspective. This is me though.

Okay but how does this differ from Z? It's the same "Person X is powerful because they say they are" trope that Z falls into. It doesn't have anything to do with martial arts or concepts or skills. The idea of self movement and the body being able to react on its own is finalized in the form of Ultra Instinct. But it's a form, it's a transformation. Goku didn't actually learn this technique by practicing it or getting good at it, he got it because his transformation made him more powerful and able to do it. This goes back to the same thing in Z where people transform and become more powerful, there's not any kind of martial arts skill or practice like we saw in the original Dragon Ball. And the concept of not letting your guard down isn't exactly some kind of interesting martial arts concept that we've never seen in the series before. Not to mention meditation or image training is nowhere near anything new for this series, we've seen it back in the original Dragon Ball.

Nothing has changed from Z to Super in terms of the series becoming more inclined with martial arts or its concepts. It's still using the exact same formula as Z. Person shows up, they're more powerful because they say they are/they transform, and then Goku defeats them (or tries to defeat them) using the same techniques he's always used, or he transforms himself. Ultra Instinct is the closest it comes, and even then it just follows the same formula as Z where it's "Person transforms, now they're more powerful and can't be hit because of how powerful they are."

If beerus and whis are anything to go buy,then ultra instinct is a technique.Also,it is not clear whether the new form is required for UI.

This. It's a move not a transformation. It's kind of like what Kaio Ken is. Ultra Instinct is not a transformation that makes you stronger. It is a technique learned where you are enabled with the ability to fight at such an efficient level of movement mastery that you would be nearly unbeatable as long as you can maintain it.

[Cabba]

This. It's a move not a transformation. It's kind of like what Kaio Ken is. Ultra Instinct is not a transformation that makes you stronger. It is a technique learned where you are enabled with the ability to fight at such an efficient level of movement mastery that you would be nearly unbeatable as long as you can maintain it.

I think of it as a tier of power, that you reach with training or tapping into hidden potential
Its both the skill of movement beyond the gods but also makes you incredibly powerful

I agree power its not all there is to it, but its definitely part of the formula. You can have all the movement and speed you want but if you aint got the power to back up your punches you aint gonna put a scratch on someone like Jiren. See how he just stood still while Goku SS2 punched him

[BrolyKale]

That's what I'm saying, its all about power. If you are powerful, he will face you, if you are not he will ignore you.
But I like both of them, I find them interesting.

I think the point is that Jiren while ubber powerful he is also a master level fighter while Broly is only good for his power and he also loses all composure while he transforms into LSS, its called berserk for a reason.
Jiren seems much more skilled while Broly looks like brute force galore

Broly is totally in control once he breaks free of his father's control (first movie), its just that he is violent and is up to no good.





https://youtu.be/DI7imXBhC4A?t=297
and no he is not only good at power, he clearly knows how to fight, dodge,...
https://youtu.be/eoJhC8lSq8I?t=46

In the second coming he is just angrier than ever because he was nearly killed by Goku. He isn't anything like Kale, who clearly doesn't know how to control herself and doesn't even know what she is doing. https://youtu.be/GzIh6kU6iDo?t=20

[Cabba]

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

https://youtu.be/DI7imXBhC4A?t=297
and no he is not only good at power, he clearly knows how to fight, dodge,...
https://youtu.be/eoJhC8lSq8I?t=46

In the second coming he is just angrier than ever because he was nearly killed by Goku. He isn't anything like Kale, who clearly doesn't know how to control herself and doesn't even know what she is doing. https://youtu.be/GzIh6kU6iDo?t=20

But thats just choreography to make the movie look good, even taking those scenes at face value, jiren has shown much more skill, ability and technique than Broly ever has, the essence of the message was that Broly went Berserk when in LSS and nothing could stop him, the main point made about him by the characters time and time again is how powerful he is. So he knows how fight? great any freeza era Saiyan could perform those moves on weaker opponents, the main point is that Broly has the raw power to tank attacks and hit with force

Jiren on the other hand while ubber powerful, has also shown tremendous amount of skill