Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

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Tombstone1988
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:20 am

Ziegander wrote:There is a MASSIVE amount of sexism and overt male chauvinism and even just general toxic masculinity in at least the American Dragon Ball fanbase, so much it's often appalling to read through youtube comments on Dragon Ball videos. Not saying there's a lot of it HERE, but I do think some of the less obvious characteristics of those issues tend to permeate the fanbase as a whole and seep into fans' thought patterns without them even noticing.

I am seeing a lot of "those bitches need to be put in their place" sentiments around here, or with the barest veneer of civility painted over them so as to try and sound less sexist, and I honestly think that those fans posting such things don't realize what they're saying or contributing to. There's a lot of people that don't see the hypocrisy in their illogical hate/prejudices against real life people, and that issue gets made even worse when talking about fictional characters since people can say some pretty nasty shit under the pretense of, "oh, we're talking about fictional characters, my attitude toward them doesn't matter!" In the sense that those attitudes won't impact the fictional characters or their world, yeah, I guess, but they do say a lot about those fans who happen to be real people with real attitudes who do interact with and have an impact on other real people in the real world.
I don't read Youtube comments, so I'll take you at your word on that one. But I think you are grossly oversimplifying people's thoughts on the characters here. Most of the people I've seen that either like or dislike Caulifla (using her as the example here) have tended to give reasons for said opinions. Most people don't like to go on Ad Hominem though; hence, they tend to simplify their thoughts when bringing it up again. I've certainly done it. There are MANY reasons to dislike Caulifla: she's arrogant, brutish, simple-minded, hot-headed, has a very basic design (debatable), and she sped through 2-3 (depending if you count USSJ as a separate transformation) transformations in like 3 days, just to name off the top of my head. If people don't like those characteristics, then yeah, they're going to have a negative opinion of her. It's why I don't like Caulifla and would love to see her get knocked out of the arena ASAP.

That doesn't suddenly make someone "sexist" or a "chauvinist." If it did, I wouldn't work as an accountant for a pharmaceutical company where 70% of my coworkers are female and my female boss jokingly calls me a "lady" or "one of the girls," and I wouldn't be closer to my mother and sister than to my father and brother. So please, keep talk of sexism for where it's actually relevant.
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by OverHeaven » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:32 am

If Goku goes SS3 next week, that will be the first time we see that form in the blue shirt IIRC. Outsise of video games obviously. I am seriously hyped for that more than whatever happens with Caulifla. From the preview it seems like it'll be good episode art-wise like this one.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:11 am

I made a point to say I don't see a lot of it HERE. But I'm not going to say I don't see it a little and in more subtle ways. I'm not calling anyone out in particular, hell I wouldn't even know who to call out if I wanted to, I'm just saying, it doesn't hurt to try to be a little more mindful about it. I also was critical of Caulifla when she was first introduced and I thought Kale's introduction was handled very, very poorly. When Caulifla first sparred against Goku she started to warm on me, but then after I reflected on the power scaling, I realized her gaining the SSJ forms honestly doesn't matter. These are characters on par with or stronger in their base forms than Buu Saga SSJ2 characters, at minimum. Looking at it in that way, realizing that, aside from the transformation shit (that honestly, doesn't really matter anymore) I like Caulifla as a character, a lot of the hate she gets just comes across as short-sighted at best.

Calling a person a bitch, when she really isn't, yeah, there's sexism in that. Calling a woman a cunt is uncalled for. People call Ribrianne a fat whore ALL THE TIME. People want to see these characters flayed alive. I don't know if Vegeta was ever called out to the gallows by the fandom, if he was I didn't notice, but I haven't actually been an active part of the Dragon Ball community until Super came out, I was really young and didn't participate in this stuff when I was watching Z. Again, I don't mean to call anyone out in particular, I don't want anyone to feel attacked, I just felt it was appropriate, seeing so much of, what was in my opinion unwarranted hate for these female characters, to bring these issues up publicly. Feel free to express your disagreement. I won't argue that Ribrianne hasn't been portrayed as a super one-note gag character and she was getting tired (I really appreciated her moment of clarity with her fellow teammate, that was a bit overdue). I will argue that that doesn't mean she deserves to be tortured by a malicious opponent. That's one example of a line I do draw.
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:37 am

Ziegander wrote:I made a point to say I don't see a lot of it HERE. But I'm not going to say I don't see it a little and in more subtle ways. I'm not calling anyone out in particular, hell I wouldn't even know who to call out if I wanted to, I'm just saying, it doesn't hurt to try to be a little more mindful about it. I also was critical of Caulifla when she was first introduced and I thought Kale's introduction was handled very, very poorly. When Caulifla first sparred against Goku she started to warm on me, but then after I reflected on the power scaling, I realized her gaining the SSJ forms honestly doesn't matter. These are characters on par with or stronger in their base forms than Buu Saga SSJ2 characters, at minimum. Looking at it in that way, realizing that, aside from the transformation shit (that honestly, doesn't really matter anymore) I like Caulifla as a character, a lot of the hate she gets just comes across as short-sighted at best.

Calling a person a bitch, when she really isn't, yeah, there's sexism in that. Calling a woman a cunt is uncalled for. People call Ribrianne a fat whore ALL THE TIME. People want to see these characters flayed alive. I don't know if Vegeta was ever called out to the gallows by the fandom, if he was I didn't notice, but I haven't actually been an active part of the Dragon Ball community until Super came out, I was really young and didn't participate in this stuff when I was watching Z. Again, I don't mean to call anyone out in particular, I don't want anyone to feel attacked, I just felt it was appropriate, seeing so much of, what was in my opinion unwarranted hate for these female characters, to bring these issues up publicly. Feel free to express your disagreement. I won't argue that Ribrianne hasn't been portrayed as a super one-note gag character and she was getting tired (I really appreciated her moment of clarity with her fellow teammate, that was a bit overdue). I will argue that that doesn't mean she deserves to be tortured by a malicious opponent. That's one example of a line I do draw.
Someone even went as far as calling Ribrianne a feminist cuz she was fat... The hell? This shows the great maturity of the fan base. Anyway not just that when the females were first introduced many-er people were being horn dogs like they'd never seen a female character before...

The fan base is and always will be shite, Kanzenshuu seemed a safe haven at one point but not anymore, sadly.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Totamo » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:37 am

HeroR wrote:
Totamo wrote: 1. Kale tanking a super saiyan blue blast isnt really special since Krillin beam struggled with it and you know it. true he may have been holding back but that scene right there showed that Goku can make that form as weak as he wants to. Its nothing special and I doubt it will actually matter in the long run.

It matters not what we are told, but we are shown and if you will sit there and tell me that these 2 saiyans were not the main focus for U6 of this tournament, then we are not watching the same show.

2. Cali did not grow into these forms, she got one on her first try and the other by accident. Thats not growth.

3.What Champa tell Cabba to do after Hit was knocked out, run. He did not tell him to fight because he had no faith he could. and even we are told that Cabba is the strongest which again did not make him important or relevant to the story what we are shown is that its all about the girls and it will come down to them for U6.

That is the hope of the universe. No one has to say it for us to know it, just like no one has to say Vegeta will lose if he fights Jiren.

4. Goku paid for that crack. Goku has also given respect to fighters that are strong or best him. Caulifla has done no such thing and has constantly look down on everyone including U11.
Except we know Goku was holding back since everyone said Krillin stood absolutely no chance. Against Kale, he had less reason to it that far down compared to Krillin, especially when he could have used his lower forms.

She got Super Saiyan 2 by accident, not Super Saiyan. She grown into it when Goku showed her how to do it.

In the previous episode, Cabba said that he was sure Cabba and the others could hold things, showing that he put Cabba in front. He never really acknowledge the other members. Cabba overall was shown to be more important than the the girl Saiyans since Cabba put his trust in him to recruit people and put him in front when he talked about how Cabba and the others may do something. And again, only Cabba called the girls the hope of the universe. Champa haven't even acknowledged their existence. Btw, when was Cabba ever called the strongest?

Goku some times pays and some times he doesn't. Cali has given respect to Cabba and even Goku once they showed how stronger they are. So "she has done no such thing and has constantly look down on everyone" is factually untrue.
SansrivaaL wrote: A different kind of asshole like I said he wasnt an asshole that overhypes himself, and he had that elegant way of talking and handling things, he was destroying planets because its his job, its not exactly Cauli’s job to suck her own shit is it?

You see thats another reason why I hate how they’ve been handling her, Vegeta despite being like that or worst at least gets his deserved humiliating slap to reality, Cauli has not and has gotten way too much love like their baby handling her or something, they are giving her almost everything without consequences.
An asshole is an asshole if you asked me and trying to destroy a planet over pudding anyway is far worse than 'overhyping themselves'. At least one doesn't led to genocide. Even the Kais pointed that Beerus' destruction wasn't justified since he was so petty and this is all confirmed by U7's low mortal rating. So no, "he was destroying planets because its his job" really doesn't work since Beerus wasn't even doing his job well. And Beerus "suck his own shit is it" by pointed out that he's a god, you're mortal, do what I say or I will destroy you. Which again, is worse than someone having a small ego since one is threatening murder or erasing in this case.

Beerus did far worse shit and got away with it and people ate his shit up too.

It seems you're okay with Beerus because he can back his BS, which just makes him worse in my eyes since Cali may come off as a cocky, self-center brat, but Beerus come off as a malicious spoiled brat bully.
When was that? cabba asked her to do something and she said no then she asked Goku to teach her something so she could beat him up with it. where is the respect.

Also I never said she got super saiyan on accident, i said she got it on her first try. cabba did not.

Also you are ignoring my point. The fact that Goku can lower his kamehameha to krillin level strength shows you that he can he can lower the level to any strength he wants. So if Goku doesn't say, he is going all out, you can't say he is. Unless you want to tell me that everyone that got shot with a super saiyan blue blast is actually blue tier, I have no reason to take that scene seriously. Especially when Goku is letting his guard down constantly in this tournament and fighting in base form for enjoyment.



The only person who I can say Goku fought seriously was Jiren and thats because he had no choice.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Totamo » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:05 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Ziegander wrote:I made a point to say I don't see a lot of it HERE. But I'm not going to say I don't see it a little and in more subtle ways. I'm not calling anyone out in particular, hell I wouldn't even know who to call out if I wanted to, I'm just saying, it doesn't hurt to try to be a little more mindful about it. I also was critical of Caulifla when she was first introduced and I thought Kale's introduction was handled very, very poorly. When Caulifla first sparred against Goku she started to warm on me, but then after I reflected on the power scaling, I realized her gaining the SSJ forms honestly doesn't matter. These are characters on par with or stronger in their base forms than Buu Saga SSJ2 characters, at minimum. Looking at it in that way, realizing that, aside from the transformation shit (that honestly, doesn't really matter anymore) I like Caulifla as a character, a lot of the hate she gets just comes across as short-sighted at best.

Calling a person a bitch, when she really isn't, yeah, there's sexism in that. Calling a woman a cunt is uncalled for. People call Ribrianne a fat whore ALL THE TIME. People want to see these characters flayed alive. I don't know if Vegeta was ever called out to the gallows by the fandom, if he was I didn't notice, but I haven't actually been an active part of the Dragon Ball community until Super came out, I was really young and didn't participate in this stuff when I was watching Z. Again, I don't mean to call anyone out in particular, I don't want anyone to feel attacked, I just felt it was appropriate, seeing so much of, what was in my opinion unwarranted hate for these female characters, to bring these issues up publicly. Feel free to express your disagreement. I won't argue that Ribrianne hasn't been portrayed as a super one-note gag character and she was getting tired (I really appreciated her moment of clarity with her fellow teammate, that was a bit overdue). I will argue that that doesn't mean she deserves to be tortured by a malicious opponent. That's one example of a line I do draw.
Someone even went as far as calling Ribrianne a feminist cuz she was fat... The hell? This shows the great maturity of the fan base. Anyway not just that when the females were first introduced many-er people were being horn dogs like they'd never seen a female character before...

The fan base is and always will be shite, Kanzenshuu seemed a safe haven at one point but not anymore, sadly.
Not kale. People hated that character, dubbed the female broly. Many many many said thats were super drew the line for them and the fact that these 2 females got super saiyan, you know that thing that is the most iconic thing about dragon ball, so easily, people said the kids made more sense. Now that didn't anger me because I knew they would get it but lets not like act that or any episode focus on the saiyan girls have not been polarizing


The issue comes back to likability. If people don't like the characters, they are going to insult them in every way, shape or form. Thats the internet. we aren't carebears. Besides its not even a female problem. 18 is one of the most popular characters in the show and no one insults her. Vados is actually really liked as well. Future Mai, same thing.


People like to compare Toppo to magic girl, the thing is Toppo is likable. Magic girl ain't. I don't mean bland by the way. Unlikable.


Saying its sexism is just a poor diversion tactic because it draws away from the main problem that people who insult really mean . these girls just aren't likable to a loud crowd.


If you can find me a fat male character that was actually unlikable in dragon ball, that was never insulted, i will take all this back.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Gig » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:14 am

Is Vegeta planning to restore Sadal only and to place it in Universe 7? That way, maybe the Zenos may allow it without re-destroying it immediately afterwards...
However, since Sadal already has got a king, Vegeta would not automatically be its leader...

Howerver, one may ask... why did Vegeta never tought about using Dragon Balls to restore U7 Vegeta planet? Because U7 Saiyans were a race of evil-doers?

PS: Does Frieza know the language of gods? If he needs some God or Angel to translate his wish to the Super Dragon, I don't think they will allow him to wish to be placed above the Zenos..

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:28 am

Look, guys, just the issue of Kale alone, oh, god, she's so ugly in her Broly form, that's disgusting, someone eliminate her please, I don't want to look at that anymore. That is all over the place. That's childish and sexist at the same time. No, I don't find her Broly form attractive either. Also, no, that I don't find her attractive doesn't devalue her character in any way. And that's just one example out of many.

I didn't say there were no legitimate reasons to dislike the characters. The tingly back thing? Absolutely atrocious writing that could have been handled infinitely better. But "they are going to insult them in every way, shape or form. Thats the internet." is glossing over things in a way that, personally, I find at best lazy and at worst cowardly. When we allow insults of people or characters that we collectively dislike to proliferate far afield from actually discussing why maybe they aren't actually good characters and just pretend it's fine when people attack those characters deliberately based on stereotypes or, if not because of their gender, in ways that can only be attributed to one gender in real life (calling some one a fat cunt, etc), that's where things get... fucked up. Isn't it? Look, that's my last social justice warrior post on this matter. I kind of think its fucked up that I'm even being labeled a social justice warrior over this, but alright, but regardless, obviously no one's minds are going to be changed. I wanted to bring something up. I did. I think I've said my piece on the matter.
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by SansrivaaL » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:42 am

Totamo wrote: The issue comes back to likability. If people don't like the characters, they are going to insult them in every way, shape or form. Thats the internet. we aren't carebears. Besides its not even a female problem. 18 is one of the most popular characters in the show and no one insults her. Vados is actually really liked as well. Future Mai, same thing.

Saying its sexism is just a poor diversion tactic because it draws away from the main problem that people who insult really mean . these girls just aren't likable to a loud crowd.
People nowadays are just sensitive even on the net, seems a lot here cant handle negativity so they throw out personal insults instead, the "I cant wait for the salty responses, I'll laugh my ass out on you people because its funny reading salty comments, me so cool" or like say... the gender sexism card to drive the topic away and make it a big thing when in reality its just simply people not having the same taste, whats so hard to understand about that, this is a forum ofc we'll put our thoughts in the characters, thats how discussions are born, but no.. we just have to make things turn dark and include sexism and insults in there just to prove a point that "hey, I dont like your opinion, you sexist nigga?" obviously thats not whats being said but you get my point.
This is why I pick the people who I have a debate,talk with, an example for me is HeroR, the guy doesnt put any type of insult and is pretty chill, he stays to the debate and whats being talked about, tho he sometimes get heated up.. the mountains of comments one has to read through...
Anyways I like reading other folks opinions more so if its in the opposite side as in a way I can see their point of view and in a way helps me understand the character more, but when stuffs like insults,sexism etc gets included is when things get really dark, I hope this stops, I wanna have an actual talk with people, not this sexist thing and name calling each other, I already have tons of that in real life with my friends, in fictional talks I wanna stay in fiction as much as possible.

Pretty soon now a mod will come in here and will tell us to stop as things are turning for the worst so I'll stop here.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by BrolyKale » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:08 am

About episode 115
[spoiler]https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/922359988030279680 Fusion between Caulifla and Kale? is that possible... I mean, will Goku teach them the fusion steps in the TOP? I know DBS is full fanservice and it can be really fun, but this is not what I really expected... or maybe its just a team name?[/spoiler]
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Ziegander » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:10 am

SansrivaaL wrote:People nowadays are just sensitive even on the net, seems a lot here cant handle negativity so they throw out personal insults instead, the "I cant wait for the salty responses, I'll laugh my ass out on you people because its funny reading salty comments, me so cool" or like say... the gender sexism card to drive the topic away and make it a big thing when in reality its just simply people not having the same taste, whats so hard to understand about that, this is a forum ofc we'll put our thoughts in the characters, thats how discussions are born, but no.. we just have to make things turn dark and include sexism and insults in there just to prove a point that "hey, I dont like your opinion, you sexist nigga?" obviously thats not whats being said but you get my point.
I didn't mean to quote anyone personally. And this isn't an attack on you, SansrivaaL, but you're commenting on something I feel needs addressed.

Y'know, I do expect a mod to get involved in here, but I'm feeling like I have to explain myself again, and that's just not making sense to me. I've made it a deliberate point NOT to insult anyone personally. In the very same post that I brought all of this up, the post that I made simply to indicate an awareness of this issue in the larger Dragon Ball community and NOT reflective necessarily of this community, in large part, as a whole, I purposely also included commentary on the actual episode. Until this post, I have never, and hadn't planned to quote someone's post, singling them out to say, "dude, I don't like your opinion, you're sexist," though I have actually seen that happen here, and there have been many times that I didn't think it was warranted. But it seems like a few of you feel personally attacked anyway. And if just me bringing this stuff up makes people uncomfortable, that's kind of proving my point.

EDIT: Just in case a mod does get involved, I know I'm new here, none of you know who I am, or care, but I have never, nor do I plan to report anyone's posts. If I had ever felt anyone seriously fucked up with something that said, and that it was worth addressing, I would have addressed it personally. I wanted to say something about the Dragon Ball fandom as a whole that is not necessarily indicative of this forum, and even though there has been some backlash here against it, I have not tried to take any indirect actions or tried to point fingers at anyone here. I don't really care what any of you think of my opinions, nor do I care what any mod does to your accounts. I'm just saying what I feel ought to be said.
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:59 am

I'm just amazed this thread devolved into such a big argument over a character who was barely in this episode, before we got the title for 115 and...hoo boy. More salt for the salt mines.

I had a part in escalating that argument too, I'll take that on the chin. I won't apologise for suggesting people think about how they express opinions and what certain words mean, because hey, that's how you make a community better.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Tombstone1988 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:11 am

Ziegander wrote:I made a point to say I don't see a lot of it HERE. But I'm not going to say I don't see it a little and in more subtle ways. I'm not calling anyone out in particular, hell I wouldn't even know who to call out if I wanted to, I'm just saying, it doesn't hurt to try to be a little more mindful about it.
Like I said, I don't participate in DB discussions much outside of this website, so it may well be that other communities are quite bad about this. My main point was it really isn't an issue here (as you admit), so there isn't much point to bring it up here. If you felt attacked or like you were being labeled, I apologize; that wasn't my intention.
Calling a person a bitch, when she really isn't, yeah, there's sexism in that. Calling a woman a cunt is uncalled for.
That's subjective. Words only have as much power as you give them; IDubbbzTV likes to make a point of that. It's also dependent on where you live. Cunt isn't nearly as bad as some other words in the UK, for example. It's also the Internet, where people love to aim for the lowest-hanging fruit. It's tasteless for sure, but there isn't much you can do about it.
Artorias wrote:This episode absolutely nailed Vegeta's character. THIS is what a modern Vegeta should be, a bit of douche, but with a heart of gold. Fun quips, but also squeezing in some real emotional character moments as well. I'm so sick of some of the writers still thinking we're in the damn Cell saga, where Vegeta was just a completely unlikeable and annoying dickhead.

There's one exception to this though. That part where he thinks he can somehow beat Jiren is just ridiculous and dumb. Vegeta is arrogant, but he's not brain dead, and anyone can tell that if Goku can't beat Jiren in his state, then he sure as hell can't touch him. Makes absolutely zero sense for him to think that way. I would've much preferred him to say something like "Alright, time to think of a strategy to force Jiren out" or "Time to gather fighters to put together on all out assault on this guy". Imagine seeing Vegeta "recruit" people and lead a desperate final charge towards Jiren or something like that.
Pretty much 100% agree with this.
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by HeroR » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:47 am

Totamo wrote: When was that? cabba asked her to do something and she said no then she asked Goku to teach her something so she could beat him up with it. where is the respect.

Also I never said she got super saiyan on accident, i said she got it on her first try. cabba did not.

Also you are ignoring my point. The fact that Goku can lower his kamehameha to krillin level strength shows you that he can he can lower the level to any strength he wants. So if Goku doesn't say, he is going all out, you can't say he is. Unless you want to tell me that everyone that got shot with a super saiyan blue blast is actually blue tier, I have no reason to take that scene seriously. Especially when Goku is letting his guard down constantly in this tournament and fighting in base form for enjoyment.



The only person who I can say Goku fought seriously was Jiren and thats because he had no choice.
Cabba himself offered to teach her Super Saiyan, which is why he showed it to her. She demanded Goku teach her Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, but when she saw him go Super Saiyan 2, she fangirl and asked how he was able to do it since she couldn't repeat the form.

If I recall, she wasn't completely successful the first time. Her fully going Super Saiyan was her second attempt.

Goku can lower his Kamehameha, I never said otherwise. However, he went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and the Kamehameha against Krillin to prove a point. What point was he trying to prove with Kale when she charged him? Goku most likely was holding back, but no where near the scale he did against Krillin because there was no point. He could have just used one of his lower Super Saiyan forms if Kale wasn't within range of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan like 17.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:28 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Ziegander wrote:There is a MASSIVE amount of sexism and overt male chauvinism and even just general toxic masculinity in at least the American Dragon Ball fanbase, so much it's often appalling to read through youtube comments on Dragon Ball videos. Not saying there's a lot of it HERE, but I do think some of the less obvious characteristics of those issues tend to permeate the fanbase as a whole and seep into fans' thought patterns without them even noticing.

I am seeing a lot of "those bitches need to be put in their place" sentiments around here, or with the barest veneer of civility painted over them so as to try and sound less sexist, and I honestly think that those fans posting such things don't realize what they're saying or contributing to. There's a lot of people that don't see the hypocrisy in their illogical hate/prejudices against real life people, and that issue gets made even worse when talking about fictional characters since people can say some pretty nasty shit under the pretense of, "oh, we're talking about fictional characters, my attitude toward them doesn't matter!" In the sense that those attitudes won't impact the fictional characters or their world, yeah, I guess, but they do say a lot about those fans who happen to be real people with real attitudes who do interact with and have an impact on other real people in the real world.
Ok, I'm glad someone else said this, because I've noticed it too. It's easy to look at some of the frankly disgusting Youtube comments and think we're above that, but all that does it let the nastier, subtle sexism seep in.
GodKaio-Ken wrote: Yes I dislike Kale because she is a woman who doesnt know her place...not her terrible motivation, lack of originality (Female Broly) and overall annoying personality.
Ok, I can understand criticism of Kale, there's a lot to unpack with her. Also notice how this thread has hardly been about her? Mostly it's been about Caulifla, just like the last few weeks were mostly about Ribrianne, and the criticism has either been for things other characters have gotten away with (see: too arrogant), or thrown under the unhelpful blanket of "annoying." Also included, criticism of their designs, usually for being too skinny, or too fat in Ribrianne's case. And the occasional gendered term like "bitch" thrown in just in case you weren't absolutely sure.

Just...think about how it might look to some people.
I totally admit that may be the motivation of others and sometimes it shows. I just hope we aren't all lumped into that.

Caulifla has grown on me but I wish her progress was slower honestly.
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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by TysonWine » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:53 am

Ziegander wrote:Y'know, I do expect a mod to get involved in here, but I'm feeling like I have to explain myself again, and that's just not making sense to me. I've made it a deliberate point NOT to insult anyone personally. In the very same post that I brought all of this up, the post that I made simply to indicate an awareness of this issue in the larger Dragon Ball community and NOT reflective necessarily of this community, in large part, as a whole, I purposely also included commentary on the actual episode. Until this post, I have never, and hadn't planned to quote someone's post, singling them out to say, "dude, I don't like your opinion, you're sexist," though I have actually seen that happen here, and there have been many times that I didn't think it was warranted. But it seems like a few of you feel personally attacked anyway. And if just me bringing this stuff up makes people uncomfortable, that's kind of proving my point.
You're not wrong, but you're fighting a losing battle. People who lack maturity and/or willing to say anything behind their computer screen has been going on since the beginning of time, as I'm sure you know. It's definitely not just the Dragon Ball fandom, it's every fandom of every genre of entertainment. The Dragon Ball fandom is tame compared to what I've dealt with in other forums. While there are a lot of idiots in the Dragon ball fandom, I have to defend the fandom this time around, because you're making it seem like Dragon Ball has a monopoly on idiocy and immaturity. It does not. I don't know your interest outside of Dragon Ball, but you don't seem to be involved in any sports or gaming forums, where not even the mods give a shit.

You came into this thread stating how disappointed you were in YouTube comments. Of course, YouTube will be full of less thoughtful and exaggerated comments. Some of it's trolling, children, or people who don't feel like typing in such a way as to not hurt another persons feelings over a cartoon. When a woman is the topic of the hour, unfortunately, you're likely to see gender based insults. Doesn't make it right, but if you can't deal with YouTube comments then simply avoid them.

As far as this site goes, the mods do a good job of keeping things under control.
Ziegander wrote:EDIT: Just in case a mod does get involved, I know I'm new here, none of you know who I am, or care, but I have never, nor do I plan to report anyone's posts. If I had ever felt anyone seriously fucked up with something that said, and that it was worth addressing, I would have addressed it personally. I wanted to say something about the Dragon Ball fandom as a whole that is not necessarily indicative of this forum, and even though there has been some backlash here against it, I have not tried to take any indirect actions or tried to point fingers at anyone here. I don't really care what any of you think of my opinions, nor do I care what any mod does to your accounts. I'm just saying what I feel ought to be said.
That's the wrong way to go about it. If you see something that goes against the spirit of the forum, simply report the post. Derailing the thread by "sneak dissing" (Responding without mentioning the specific user's name) or with your own thoughts of what you find to be sexist or misogynistic and saying "but I'm not necessarily talking about you guys," isn't any more productive, and starts the type of discussing that baits mods into taken action.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Kinokima » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:20 am

TysonWine wrote: You're not wrong, but you're fighting a losing battle. People who lack maturity and/or willing to say anything behind their computer screen has been going on since the beginning of time, as I'm sure you know. It's definitely not just the Dragon Ball fandom, it's every fandom of every genre of entertainment. The Dragon Ball fandom is tame compared to what I've dealt with in other forums. While there are a lot of idiots in the Dragon ball fandom, I have to defend the fandom this time around, because you're making it seem like Dragon Ball has a monopoly on idiocy and immaturity. It does not. I don't know your interest outside of Dragon Ball, but you don't seem to be involved in any sports or gaming forums, where not even the mods give a shit.
I am not sure what fandoms you have been involved with but I hate to say this but the Dragon Ball fandom is one of the worst fandoms I've been part of recently. Maybe it's been so long since I've been involved with such a negative and nasty fandom that I am so shocked by it. Granted there are a lot of nice and intelligent people in this fandom and many great people on this board but I definitely don't think the viciousness I see from this fandom is the norm at all and can just be excused by saying that is how it is with a lot of fandoms because I can assure you that it is not. And I've been heavily involved in fandom and anime fandom for a long time.

The fact that people think using cunt to attack as female character is in anyway acceptable is just baffling to me.

But I do agree and I need to remind myself that debating with these type of people is really an uphill battle & pointless. I am afraid sometimes I can't help myself. And sometimes I just hope people can be a more pleasant. And there are certain fans who I think are generally pleasant and nice but maybe don't always think that what they post can bother someone else and maybe it is those fans that I think can be reasoned with.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:45 am

Ziegander wrote:Look, guys, just the issue of Kale alone, oh, god, she's so ugly in her Broly form, that's disgusting, someone eliminate her please, I don't want to look at that anymore. That is all over the place. That's childish and sexist at the same time. No, I don't find her Broly form attractive either. Also, no, that I don't find her attractive doesn't devalue her character in any way. And that's just one example out of many.

I didn't say there were no legitimate reasons to dislike the characters. The tingly back thing? Absolutely atrocious writing that could have been handled infinitely better. But "they are going to insult them in every way, shape or form. Thats the internet." is glossing over things in a way that, personally, I find at best lazy and at worst cowardly. When we allow insults of people or characters that we collectively dislike to proliferate far afield from actually discussing why maybe they aren't actually good characters and just pretend it's fine when people attack those characters deliberately based on stereotypes or, if not because of their gender, in ways that can only be attributed to one gender in real life (calling some one a fat cunt, etc), that's where things get... fucked up. Isn't it? Look, that's my last social justice warrior post on this matter. I kind of think its fucked up that I'm even being labeled a social justice warrior over this, but alright, but regardless, obviously no one's minds are going to be changed. I wanted to bring something up. I did. I think I've said my piece on the matter.

Once again, like most SJWs, you ignore the real issue and instead chalk it up to "sexism" or "racism" or "misogyny" or whatever buzzword happens to fit that day. I dont know when the words "bitch" or "cunt" became exclusively female only and apparently "sexist" words given I see them directed at males all the time. That's not even the issue though, the issue is that you actually think people dislike Kale just because of her appearance and because she's a woman. Trust me, people dislike Kale for a lot better reasons than how she looks. She's got A LOT more problems with her character, and I can honestly say I've probably only seen 10% of people complain about her looks while the other 90% complain about her real issues, like how she's a Broly clone.

And so what if a character is fat and ugly and people dislike them? Why is this now all of a sudden a problem when females are involved? Dragon Ball has always had ugly fat guys that people disliked because they were ugly and fat. Why is it suddenly sexist now that there are ugly fat girls too? Isn't it the opposite of sexism? Isn't that technically equality?

It shouldn't be hard to see why youre being labeled an SJW when you use terms like "toxic masculinity" and try and turn issues about a character into a gender issue where we must choose our words carefully solely for female characters. And like most SJWs you're giving the whole "it all comes back to real life!" defense which is just so nonsensical. Yeah, as if the people who think Caulifla is a bitch and Kale is ugly are going to go around in real life randomly calling people bitch and ugly, just because they think of Caulifla and Kale that way. :roll:
Kinokima wrote:The fact that people think using cunt to attack as female character is in anyway acceptable is just baffling to me.
But if one was to describe Vegeta as a dick, that's perfectly acceptable? People need to stop holding certain words above other words. Either none of them are off-limits or they're all off-limits. Enough of the picking and choosing as to what to get offended by.

The Dragon Ball fanbase is absolutely nowhere near the worst or most "toxic" anime fanbase. People are simply way too sensitive these days and are looking to chalk up anything to a social justice buzzword.

I like Caulifla, I'm not going to call her a cunt, but if someone else wants to call her a cunt I see no issue with it and can perfectly understand where they're coming from because I know they're making that remark because of how she acts and not simply because they hate women or something.
Last edited by Asura on Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:50 am

I think it's about time we end this little derailment and bring things back to the point of these episode threads. If people want to discuss the current topic, I'd suggest making a thread somewhere about it.

===

With that out of the way, let's bring things back on topic.

It looks as though Universes 4 and 6 are in trouble, as they're all down to only a few select members left, of which we know the clear limits of for the latter. The former is a mystery beyond knowing that they have the twin bugs.

Next episode is looking to be continuing the focus on Universe 6, this time on Caulifla and Kale's bout with Goku. Should be interesting to see how these Saiyans will develop further.

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Re: Super Episode 112 (22 October 2017)

Post by Asura » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:07 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I think it's about time we end this little derailment and bring things back to the point of these episode threads. If people want to discuss the current topic, I'd suggest making a thread somewhere about it.

===

With that out of the way, let's bring things back on topic.

It looks as though Universes 4 and 6 are in trouble, as they're all down to only a few select members left, of which we know the clear limits of for the latter. The former is a mystery beyond knowing that they have the twin bugs.

Next episode is looking to be continuing the focus on Universe 6, this time on Caulifla and Kale's bout with Goku. Should be interesting to see how these Saiyans will develop further.
Quitela's always got that shit-eating grin on his face and continued to have it even after Monna was eliminated, so he must be really confident in his two invisible members given he's still acting like this even after seeing Goku and Jiren. Those bug people's designs don't look very interesting though so I hope they're not mega-important.

I wonder if U6 will go before U4 does? I don't see the U6 Namekians lasting very long especially given they're already fighting and we know nothing about them and they've uttered like, 2 whole lines. Makes me wonder though if Caulifla is just using Goku to train her or if she also plans on trying to eliminate him. I'd imagine the smartest/wisest thing to do would be for her and Kale to ally up with U7 until the end, but as I said previously in another post, "wise' and "Caulifla" don't exactly match up.

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